Dalton Departure - TEB

[Rythm3]

Hello -

I am currently looking for feedback from anyone who has experience with the Dalton Departure at Teterboro. I did a search and didn't really find anything about it on here.

At the company that I fly for, we are prohibited from operating VFR at any time (no airborne IFR clearences or cancellations), but since TEB is one of our most common destinations, management is considering the use of this departure to alleviate future delays when the situation arises.

We are mainly looking for any safety related issues associated with the DP before we would be allowed to accept it, but any feedback at all, whether positive or negative would be appreciated.

Thanks --

 

[drinkduff77]

I've flown the Dalton 19 probably 100 times or so. The main purpose of it is to get you out legally under the arrivals into EWR. Once you're clear of the EWR traffic, 5 mi or so after t/o, you will get cleared to climb which activates your IFR. I'm a little rusty on the procedure having not flown it in a couple of years. It could get complicated with a loss of comms after takeoff if the wx is marginal. I never felt like I was compromising safety by flying it and thought it was kinda fun. Also, 19 is the preferred runway for noise abatement over 24 if you fly a loud aircraft.

 

[sleepy]

I have never had any problems using the Dalton. It is better than getting a noise letter from the Port Authority. Get 3 of those and you are banned from TEB.

 

[Raskal]

I understand the hesitation about the vfr issue, I had the same one. You are only technically vfr for 5 miles...often a shorter time than when departing a non-controlled field. Not to mention, if you refuse this delays can get absolutely outrageous at times-your pax would be pretty upset if they found out they could've left, and rightfully so.

It's easy and safe...here's a link if you don't have one. I'd suggest printing this out and keeping it if you don't have a copy.

http://web.nbaa.org/public/ops/airports/teb/ops/R24_T5A_Dalton.pdf

 

[DrProc]

Another FYI, is that the Dalton is not published in NOS charts, only in Jepps. SO if you use NOS charts print out a copy if you are headed to TEB.

 

[GIVDrvr]

Used the Dalton many times most recently last week and never had any safety issues. ATC will still provide 1000 ft vert sep if the EWR arrival overhead is a Heavy or B757 but you can see 500 vert otherwise and get an occassional bump from wake turb. We got out 6 dep slots sooner by accepting this and every little bit helps after a nice afternoon of gate hold.

 

[Waldom]

The Dalton departure is a nice option to have when departing TEB.

This is demonstrating a marvelous grasp of the obvious, but keep in mind that the 1300' altitude restriction comes up pretty quickly in a high performance aircraft, particularly because you will likely be leveling while still in the left turn initiated at 800'. Don't forget the 190 knot speed restriction.

If management is still mulling it over, why not have all of your company pilots fly the Dalton in the simulator during their next recurrent and seek their feed-back?

 

[Mason]

The Dalton departure is a nice option to have when departing TEB.

This is demonstrating a marvelous grasp of the obvious, but keep in mind that the 1300' altitude restriction comes up pretty quickly in a high performance aircraft, particularly because you will likely be leveling while still in the left turn initiated at 800'. Don't forget the 190 knot speed restriction.

If management is still mulling it over, why not have all of your company pilots fly the Dalton in the simulator during their next recurrent and seek their feed-back?

Very good point. It gets busy quickly in something like a lightly loaded Lear making the turn at 800, leveling at 1300 and keeping it below 190kt.

 

[part61]

Dalton is our depature of choice out of TEB, we use it to avoid a nasty letter from the noise police. I think its safe and you are only VFR for a short amount of time. Remember once ATC clears you above 1300 you are on IFR

 

[GVFlyer]

Although our ops manual allows our pilots the discretion to accept or decline the Dalton Departure, no captain in our flight department will fly it.

GV

 

[GIVDrvr]

Although our ops manual allows our pilots the discretion to accept or decline the Dalton Departure, no captain in our flight department will fly it.

GV,
I am curious what specifics are cited by your collegues as reasons for declining to fly the procedure

 

[GVFlyer]

GV,
I am curious what specifics are cited by your collegues as reasons for declining to fly the procedure

1. Lost communications procedures.

2. 500 foot vertical separation from large/heavy aircraft descending into Newark.

3. Inability of ATC to provide IFR separation from other aircraft.

4. Lower than normal operating altitude for turbofan aircraft (regardless of what FAA pubs say very few pilots actually operate a turbojet) at lower than normal airspeed.

Additionally, although it hasn't happened to anyone we know at Teterboro, each of us has had an experience like a recent one we experienced departing Thermal, CA VFR where we unable to pick up an IFR clearance until hitting the Arizona state line. For us, a similar delay in getting a clearance would not be a desirable outcome in New York airspace. Regarding IFR clearances, the Dalton Departure states "Expect" which is substantively different from "Shall" or "Will".

Empirically, not accepting the Dalton Departure has not caused us any perceptible delays - some other guy will normally accept it. Regardless of Teterboro Tower's ominous tones about delays for aircraft that refuse to depart VFR, I have repeatedly been cleared out IFR on the Teterboro Five immediately following a jet flying the Dalton.


GV




~

 

[Jurasic jets]

The Dalton 19 is not published in the NOS charts however it is published in the "green AFM", it is a VFR procedure not an IFR one hence where it is located. We fly it on a regular basis, when available, we have never had any trouble getting the IFR, and lost comm in a modern era jet is not really a big concern as we have more radios and electricity than we know what to do with.....

 

[sleepy]

The Dalton 19 is not published in the NOS charts however it is published in the "green AFM", it is a VFR procedure not an IFR one hence where it is located. We fly it on a regular basis, when available, we have never had any trouble getting the IFR, and lost comm in a modern era jet is not really a big concern as we have more radios and electricity than we know what to do with.....

So true, with three generators, 2 VHF and 2 HF radios I am not really concerned about lost comm. I guess if you lost comm you could re-enter the VFR pattern at TEB and await your light gun signals to land. That would be fun.

 

[Raskal]

So true, with three generators, 2 VHF and 2 HF radios I am not really concerned about lost comm. I guess if you lost comm you could re-enter the VFR pattern at TEB and await your light gun signals to land. That would be fun.

LOL, light gun at TEB...that would rock! Do you think they even know where the thing is? I also wonder, is it possible to flash signals with an attitude?