ASA union meeting

[ASADriver]

Kinda dissapointed that there weren't any fireworks at the meeting today. I was hoping to see Pennekamp and RJMan go at it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fireworks might be fun to watch, but they are no good indoors.

I think the meeting went well and I'd rather be assured & secure than amused & scared.

But actually there was a fuse lit on one huge fireworks display, if you caught it. ALPA seems to be genuinely fed up with the Railway Labor Act and may be considering a test of the legitimacy of the NMB's unfair restraint. "Plan B" as alluded to is actually the strongest talk that I've ever heard from ALPA insiders.

Before firing that cannon they must show that they did everything possible to work within the system. In this instance labor has the moral high ground and strangely, the chest beating, threats and misinformation is not coming from the union side of the debate.

What I heard today was well prepared, resolute, conservative and confident leadership.

There is a process, which should be followed and which should have an equitable result. Under SkyWest's direction, that process has been abused. We have to give the NMB an opportunity to deal with problem which falls within their scope of authority, by providing a release.

Isn't it amazing that we still don't have a "release" after 5 years, but every other employee group already automatically has the right that is denied to us. It is unfair.

 

[ASADriver]

Fireworks might be fun to watch, but they are no good indoors.

I think the meeting went well and I'd rather be assured & secure than amused & scared.

I agree, but the "we are close to a release" bit is getting old. My understanding is the NMB doesn't have to release us ever. After the last negotiations, a member of the neg. committee told me we will get a release. It didn't happen. Am I going to be told the same thing after next weeks meeting?

 

[Tarzan]

What I heard today was well prepared, resolute, conservative and confident leadership.

What I heard assured me to some point as well. When one guys asked about a vote regardless before we walked, the answer given cleared the muddy waters considerably. Some of the answers seemed to dance around the issue such as the Plan B that was not elaborated on but overall, the lack of chest thumping and anger was a good sign. As Fins said, resolute.

 

[ASAFOE120]

Can someone give us a rundown on what was discussed. I was flying today and couldnt make it but would like as much info as anybody can recall.
Thanks

 

[PCL_128]

My understanding is the NMB doesn't have to release us ever.

That's technically correct, but politically unfeasible. If the NMB drags this out too long, then ALPA-friendly politicians (such as the General's favorite, Senator Oberstar) will eventually start pushing for investigations and oversight of the NMB. No bureaucrat with a cushy government job likes some politician breathing down his neck, so the NMB will blink before it gets to that. I expect you'll see a release this fall before the holiday season starts getting close.

 

[JoeMerchant]

That's technically correct, but politically unfeasible. If the NMB drags this out too long, then ALPA-friendly politicians (such as the General's favorite, Senator Oberstar) will eventually start pushing for investigations and oversight of the NMB. No bureaucrat with a cushy government job likes some politician breathing down his neck, so the NMB will blink before it gets to that. I expect you'll see a release this fall before the holiday season starts getting close.

Then what happened with Great Lakes?

 

[PCL_128]

Then what happened with Great Lakes?

Who represents the GLA pilots, John? Do they have a voice in Washington? Does anyone in Washington even know who Great Lakes is? No offense to the GLA pilots, but comparing ASA to a small turboprop operator represented by a truckers' union is ridiculous.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Who represents the GLA pilots, John? Do they have a voice in Washington? Does anyone in Washington even know who Great Lakes is? No offense to the GLA pilots, but comparing ASA to a small turboprop operator represented by a truckers' union is ridiculous.

Your right, the Teamsters don't have a voice in Washington.....

Since you failed that one, let's try another one. Why did Mesaba, Polar, and World get released in about half the time that ASA has been in section 6 negotiations? Something doesn't compute PCL....

 

[PCL_128]

Your right, the Teamsters don't have a voice in Washington.....

The Teamsters are viewed as a bunch of radical extremists in Washington. They've never been able to recover from the stench of corruption that permeated the organization so many years ago. Not to mention the fact that the Democrats are largely beholden to the AFL-CIO which the Teamsters left high and dry without paying millions of dollars in dues that they still owe to this day.

Why did Mesaba, Polar, and World get released in about half the time that ASA has been in section 6 negotiations?

Mesaba was released because their management team made such elementary good-faith bargaining mistakes at the table with the mediator present that the NMB really had no choice but to release them.

I can't speak to World because they're not ALPA, so I wasn't really well-informed about what was going on behind the scenes there. As for Polar, their management team wasn't even fighting that release. The holding company believed that they could break the union, so putting up a big fight to keep the NMB from releasing the pilots wasn't on their agenda. ASA management is trying their best to convince the NMB to keep things going, so the NMB will go for as long as they think they can get away with it.

Something doesn't compute PCL....

John, I've been saying that about you for years.

 

[~~~^~~~]

.... let's try another one. Why did Mesaba, Polar, and World get released in about half the time that ASA has been in section 6 negotiations? Something doesn't compute PCL....

Why? Could it be that ASA has more of an impact on the travelling public, is a "major" in the eyes of the DOT and has the potential to take Delta out of the game? Could it be that Jerry Atkin was well thought of and well connected?

In politics you can pull strings for so long. After a while everyone uses up their political capital at the Capitol. Right before the indictment Ken Lay could not understand why Bush no longer returned his phone calls.

I just think the excuses for not releasing ASA are wearing thin at the same time the parties are close enough that a release is likely to get the deal done once ASA pilots get the same rights that every other worker in the United States has.

Why do you think we are not getting released? Do you still think it is the pay rates?

You should have come. Utley did most of the talking and his explanations were pragmatic, open and addressed the concerns of those in attendance.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The Teamsters are viewed as a bunch of radical extremists in Washington. They've never been able to recover from the stench of corruption that permeated the organization so many years ago. Not to mention the fact that the Democrats are largely beholden to the AFL-CIO which the Teamsters left high and dry without paying millions of dollars in dues that they still owe to this day.



Mesaba was released because their management team made such elementary good-faith bargaining mistakes at the table with the mediator present that the NMB really had no choice but to release them.

I can't speak to World because they're not ALPA, so I wasn't really well-informed about what was going on behind the scenes there. As for Polar, their management team wasn't even fighting that release. The holding company believed that they could break the union, so putting up a big fight to keep the NMB from releasing the pilots wasn't on their agenda. ASA management is trying their best to convince the NMB to keep things going, so the NMB will go for as long as they think they can get away with it.

To summarize what you just said...

GLA didn't get a release because they are Teamsters, who have no support in DC.... Yet World was Teamsters, and they did get released and they went on strike.....

Mesaba got a release, but that was because of management, not because of ALPA.....

Polar got a release, again because of management, not because of ALPA....

Thanks PCL.... my point exactly......

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why? Could it be that ASA has more of an impact on the travelling public, is a "major" in the eyes of the DOT and has the potential to take Delta out of the game? Could it be that Jerry Atkin was well thought of and well connected?

In politics you can pull strings for so long. After a while everyone uses up their political capital at the Capitol. Right before the indictment Ken Lay could not understand why Bush no longer returned his phone calls.

I just think the excuses for not releasing ASA are wearing thin at the same time the parties are close enough that a release is likely to get the deal done once ASA pilots get the same rights that every other worker in the United States has.

Why do you think we are not getting released? Do you still think it is the pay rates?

You should have come. Utley did most of the talking and his explanations were pragmatic, open and addressed the concerns of those in attendance.

Fins,

I have heard it all before, and I had better things to do today. I'm glad there was a good turnout, and I am glad that Danny did most of the talking. He is the only member of the MEC that seems to get it, and I honestly believe that he does get it... That's why they had him do most of the talking. He thinks like the "silent majority", and the MEC has heard the message.....

I think our demands are still to high to get a release. Managements 700 pay offer is higher than any other DCI 700 or 900 rate. In fact, it is higher on the Capt. side than some mainline rates. Full retro isn't going to happen either and it is a pipe dream.

Simply put, we aren't going to get industry leading QOL, industry leading pay, and industry leading scope. The NMB won't release us based on those demands.

In regards to your first point about ASA being a "major" and having a larger impact, you are correct. That is probably why ALPA wasn't pushing the NMB for a release while Delta was in BK. That would have killed Delta and ALPA can't afford that...

 

[PCL_128]

Thanks PCL.... my point exactly......

Not exactly sure what you're getting at, Joe. With this anti-labor/pro-management NMB, the only way to get released in a reasonable time-frame (i.e. < 3 years) is if management either doesn't care, or if their incompetence at the table puts the NMB in situation where they can't find an excuse to keep the parties negotiating.

That has nothing to do with the situation you are in at ASA. A reasonable time-frame passed a long time ago. The NMB is playing with borrowed time now. They know they can't keep this going forever. Eventually it will catch up with them. As Fins pointed out, everyone runs out of political capital at some point. ASA management and the NMB are getting to that point rapidly. Even the most anti-labor administration in modern history can't keep this going for much longer.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Not exactly sure what you're getting at, Joe. With this anti-labor/pro-management NMB, the only way to get released in a reasonable time-frame (i.e. < 3 years) is if management either doesn't care, or if their incompetence at the table puts the NMB in situation where they can't find an excuse to keep the parties negotiating.

So then the fact that GLA is Teamsters, doesn't really factor into the equation. Using your logic, GLA management is like ASA management... and it wouldn't have made a difference if GLA was ALPA...

That has nothing to do with the situation you are in at ASA. A reasonable time-frame passed a long time ago. The NMB is playing with borrowed time now. They know they can't keep this going forever. Eventually it will catch up with them. As Fins pointed out, everyone runs out of political capital at some point. ASA management and the NMB are getting to that point rapidly. Even the most anti-labor administration in modern history can't keep this going for much longer.

Did you know that it was ASA ALPA that wanted things to drag out initially? The logic was that things would improve.... maybe that wasn't such a great strategy after all....

Did you know that we were still asking for big raises on the 700 and a B-fund retirement plan 4+ years into the game? Think that may have played a factor? We have since dropped those demands.

We are still making progress at the table... all be it small progress... As long as that continues, there will be no impasse declared.

 

[PCL_128]

and it wouldn't have made a difference if GLA was ALPA...

We'll never know. It's quite possible that it could have made a difference, but that's all theory. The fact remains that ALPA has maintained an excellent reputation in Washington, and the Teamsters have been viewed for decades as crazy radicals.

Did you know that it was ASA ALPA that wanted things to drag out initially? The logic was that things would improve.... maybe that wasn't such a great strategy after all....

But then again, maybe it was. Until you see the finished product, it's ridiculous to cast any strategy in a bad light. In my opinion, there is nothing the ASA MEC could have done, short of just rolling over and taking a truly horrendous TA, that could have shortened this process.

Did you know that we were still asking for big raises on the 700 and a B-fund retirement plan 4+ years into the game? Think that may have played a factor? We have since dropped those demands.

No, I don't think that played a factor. In fact, I was somewhat disappointed when I saw that the MEC had reduced their payrate demands for the -700. I consider the current ASA ALPA proposal to be bare-bones.

We are still making progress at the table... all be it small progress... As long as that continues, there will be no impasse declared.

We'll see. I predict a cooling off period by the middle of October.

 

[JoeMerchant]

We'll never know. It's quite possible that it could have made a difference, but that's all theory. The fact remains that ALPA has maintained an excellent reputation in Washington, and the Teamsters have been viewed for decades as crazy radicals.

That's not what you said in a previous post. You said the only way to get a release with this administration is if management either wants it, or if they screw up... Those were YOUR words, not mine. That would be the same regardless of whether GLA was ALPA or Teamsters. In addition, you still haven't addressed how World got released with the Teamsters...

But then again, maybe it was. Until you see the finished product, it's ridiculous to cast any strategy in a bad light. In my opinion, there is nothing the ASA MEC could have done, short of just rolling over and taking a truly horrendous TA, that could have shortened this process.

Whether it was the right strategy or not, it does partially account for the length of these negotiations. The 700 rates would have been higher had we "rolled over" earlier on. The pattern rate hadn't been decimated as it has now... you do understand how pattern bargaining works don't you?

No, I don't think that played a factor. In fact, I was somewhat disappointed when I saw that the MEC had reduced their payrate demands for the -700. I consider the current ASA ALPA proposal to be bare-bones.

That's because the election had an effect. You, like some of our hard-liners want to ignore pattern bargaining because you only like it when it goes up.... you don't like it when it goes the other way...

 

[PCL_128]

That's not what you said in a previous post. You said the only way to get a release with this administration is if management either wants it, or if they screw up... Those were YOUR words, not mine.

No, Joe, that's not what I said. You left out some key words there. I said that the only way to get released in a reasonable amount of time, which I defined as less than about 3 years, would require management to either screw up or to want it/not care. Both ASA and GLA are far past a "reasonable time frame" now, and have been for a while, so that doesn't really apply.

The pattern rate hadn't been decimated as it has now... you do understand how pattern bargaining works don't you?

The pattern rate hadn't been driven down yet, but it was clear where it was headed. Trying to get a good rate in that environment was impossible. I was grateful that the CBA at PCL wasn't amendable until mid-2005 for that very reason. It allowed some time for the market to stabilize and for the effects of 9/11 to subside. Yes, the pattern had been moving in the wrong direction, but the pattern always reverses at some point.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No, Joe, that's not what I said. You left out some key words there. I said that the only way to get released in a reasonable amount of time, which I defined as less than about 3 years, would require management to either screw up or to want it/not care. Both ASA and GLA are far past a "reasonable time frame" now, and have been for a while, so that doesn't really apply.

Then you don't really understand the NMB and the RLA. Length of negotiations is not a factor. The primary factor the NMB looks at is how BOTH sides proposals, in entirety, compare to the other carriers in the same tier... You should know that....

GLA, by the way finally accepted the arbitrators ruling a full 6 years into the process... which was the companies last offer 2 years prior...


[/quote]
The pattern rate hadn't been driven down yet, but it was clear where it was headed. Trying to get a good rate in that environment was impossible. I was grateful that the CBA at PCL wasn't amendable until mid-2005 for that very reason. It allowed some time for the market to stabilize and for the effects of 9/11 to subside. Yes, the pattern had been moving in the wrong direction, but the pattern always reverses at some point.[/quote]

The company would have matched the CMR rates early on in the process, but we wanted more.... It was a mistake....

 

[PCL_128]

Then you don't really understand the NMB and the RLA. Length of negotiations is not a factor.

You're talking theory, I'm talking practice. As a practical matter, length of negotiations is a factor at this point. The NMB will not be able to keep this held up indefinitely. The company's pull with the NMB will eventually reach a breaking point.