Midwest Air Warns On Profit, Cites Weak Fares

[CitationLover]

Citation.. Since you don't work at AAI I would be careful what you say.. You have no idea what the training environment is like.. My 717 training was very laid back and there was no yelling.. Actually, it was too laid back for me. I wish my instructor was harder on us.. The only people who have problems and get yelled at are the people who don't study and don't prepare.. Yes, if you don't come prepared for training AAI will not hold your hand like many other airlines will.. They will kick you to the door, but, if you study, it will be a piece of cake.......

I am just repeating what I've heard from people who work there. If it is very laid back, why the concern for the "no recommendation is a failure" part of the TA? I have also heard from many that it is old school in the aspect of knowing the rivets, etc.

If I am wrong, then great!

 

[gt1900]

I have no idea how many rivets are on the airplane... Hell, I think it has 2 engines.. BR 7 somethings..... It isn't laid back in the sense that they are gonna hold your hand until you pass. Because they won't do that.. However, if you study, its no problem.... Besides, the "no recommendation is a failure" is what is currently practiced anyways from what I understand..

 

[Ty Webb]

Yes, very interesting timing... I wonder why they did that? .

Probably to start "letting down easy" any analysts and investors who actually believed the ridiculously optimistic numbers that they were projecting during their "big lie" campaign.

Their projections were so optimistic, I thought Rico wrote 'em :laugh: .


.

 

[crashpad]

The "big lie" is over. Milwaukee newspapers and channels were reporting last week that the AirTran deal is all but done. The Midwest Express pilots I've spoke with are pretty bitter about it. I guess they don't realize how lucky they are.

 

[PCL_128]

The Midwest Express pilots I've spoke with are pretty bitter about it. I guess they don't realize how lucky they are.

I just don't get that. Their company gets much bigger, they'll have the ability to bid to the 737, and they'll probably get a pretty good deal on the seniority integration since they're so senior compared to the AirTran pilot group. If they're worried that MKE will be flooded with AirTran guys, then I don't think they'll need to worry. I don't think there'll be a lot of guys bidding MKE.

 

[Ty Webb]

The Midwest guys would probably be a lot happier if they knew that the AirTran pilot group is not what they might be worrying about. . . . . most guys here have been through multiple airlines, and have been through the merger/furlough/growth/stagnation cycle. . . . Most are a pretty easy-going guys who are not looking to reap some windfall from this thing.

I haven't heard one AAI pilot use the word "Staple", I think most just expect that there will be a "relative seniority" integration, and some fences for a few years around domiciles and equipment to keep some semblance of normalcy for everyone.

We could benefit from having the collective experience of the MEH group, just like they can benefit from our history of growth and expansion. We need to work together to leverage management, not be tools to be used against one another. In the end, we'll be one group, so let's work together to our mutual benefit.


.

 

[USARET]

I haven't heard one AAI pilot use the word "Staple",

Staple.....just kidding!

 

[Lear70]

Besides, the "no recommendation is a failure" is what is currently practiced anyways from what I understand..

It's not practiced in the same way the T.A. is written from a language/interpretation standpoint.

Currently, if you don't get recommended, you are returned to the line without further training, as you haven't actually "failed" anything. No pink slip on your FAA record, and your PRIA record simply indicates you withdrew from upgrade and you spend a year in your old position before you get to try again.

You could *consider* that a "failure", the company does simply for the purposes of determining when you could come back for another upgrade/transition attempt, but the difference is there is no "termination risk" from multiple "failure to recommend" events, and a guy who just couldn't hack the upgrade would be a permanent F/O, but never at risk to be terminated for it.

The new T.A. puts those F/O's now at risk for termination. Granted, you're talking about probably 1-2% of the pilot group (10-20 guys), but I'm not interested in throwing ANYONE under the bus like that. Absolutely ZERO need for that to be added to the contract.

Incidentally, I didn't find the schoolhouse to be terribly bad or absolutely "the best". The curriculum needs tweaking, but the CBT is good, the VPT sessions are EXCELLENT for developing flows and reinforcing systems understanding, and the instructors were all very knowledgeable and VERY willing to help if you had a good attitude and asked for the help.

There WAS an undercurrent of "you'd better be at your best or you're out of here", but I think a lot of that was self-imposed by guys who freak during training anyway. Is it stressful? Sure; your career is on the line. Do they make it worse? Not really, and certainly not intentionally in any kind of "intimidation" exercise. It's just old school "Learn it our way or hit the road." If you can handle that with a good attitude, you'll be just fine, and might even enjoy it.

 

[CitationLover]

I just don't get that. Their company gets much bigger, they'll have the ability to bid to the 737, and they'll probably get a pretty good deal on the seniority integration since they're so senior compared to the AirTran pilot group. If they're worried that MKE will be flooded with AirTran guys, then I don't think they'll need to worry. I don't think there'll be a lot of guys bidding MKE.

there is no guarantee MKE will be a domicile in the future versus 100% with the status quo, that is one thing. your company has stated rj's for MKE, BOS, and MCI which further feeds this paranoia of having to goto ATL for work.

there is also the integration issue, no one likes uncertainty.

a lot people simply like it being a small company and knowing everyone. they take great pride in the product they deliver and fear change.

whats the big deal about bidding a 737? we will have them or A320's here to replace the MD80.

 

[CitationLover]

We need to work together to leverage management, not be tools to be used against one another. In the end, we'll be one group, so let's work together to our mutual benefit.

100% agreement.

 

[gt1900]

Citation.. You are correct about working for a small company being nice.. However, the MEH guys need to realize that this is the airline industry. Working for a small company ultimatly means losing your job.. With the exception of Alaska Airlines, find me 1 small airline that has been around for 30+ years that hasn't been bought out or gone bankrupt. You won't find one. In the airlines, for the most part, the strength lies with the size of the company. AAI realizes this. This merger is going to add stability to both AAI and MEH employees. Trust me, if MEH is going to merge, you want to merge with AAI.. SWA, NWA, AA, and any of the others won't be nearly as nice when it comes to integration. I belive the AAI guys know this as well. If AAI doesn't grow we could very easily be the target of a hotile takeover as well.. If we add MEH and MKE to our company, the likelyhood of a takeover will be much smaller..

Don't worry about MEH being a base for the new company, it will be. There is no way your going to have 200+ departures a day out of MEH and not have a base. You can't get that many pilots and f/a's back and forth to ATL without creating a logistical nightmare, especially with the lack of gate space in ATL.. He!!, I wouldn't be suprised to see a Kansas City base down the road either..

Just so everyone knows.. I believe we should staple the MEH guys to the bottom, that way I can upgrade... haha, just kidding for those of you with no sense of humor..

 

[Lear70]

If/when the acquisition/merger goes through, I'd then like to see us add Frontier.

The only markets left are really the international routes (Mexico, Caribbean, Canada). Going head-to-head on domestic over-served routes isn't going to do anyone any good...


*duck* INCOMING!!!

 

[gt1900]

Na... We need Alaska, much better route structure and same a/c fleet...

 

[PCL_128]

there is no guarantee MKE will be a domicile in the future versus 100% with the status quo, that is one thing. your company has stated rj's for MKE, BOS, and MCI which further feeds this paranoia of having to goto ATL for work.

I don't think the RJ thing is going to happen, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. This pilot group seems smart enough not to allow mass outsourcing to RJ feeders. I don't see any set of circumstances that would result in the closing of the MKE domicile. In fact, I expect it will get much bigger with the adding of 737s for some left-coast flying.

a lot people simply like it being a small company and knowing everyone. they take great pride in the product they deliver and fear change.

I know, but as gt1900 pointed out, you're never going to last for any period of time as a small company. If it isn't AirTran, then someone else will eventually come along. Midwest won't be left alone by the rest of the majors forever. A merger is inevitable. The question is really whether you'd like to merge with a pilot group that will do things equitably, or would you rather end up taking it in the AAss by the APA when American decides that having an LCC just to the north of ORD isn't good for them and swallows you up?

whats the big deal about bidding a 737?

Actually, I agree with you on that. They'll have to drag me kicking and screaming out of the 717. Those 5-hour legs to Seattle just don't do it for me.

 

[CitationLover]

...The question is really whether you'd like to merge with a pilot group that will do things equitably, or would you rather end up taking it in the AAss by the APA when American decides that having an LCC just to the north of ORD isn't good for them and swallows you up?

well, speaking selfishly, i am on the bottom over here. i'll be on the bottom at the new integrated list so i am not expecting much for me. no need to tell me all about AA, i flown with a lot of TWA guys at eagle.

its way above my pay grade anyways. i've had my last job interview, hopefully.

the senior md80 guys simply have a great life. they are home every night in MKE. if you enjoyed that, would you want to give it up?

 

[PCL_128]

well, speaking selfishly, i am on the bottom over here. i'll be on the bottom at the new integrated list so i am not expecting much for me.

Same here. You and I are both on the same spot of our respective seniority lists, so it won't make much of a difference to either of us. It can't get much lower than number last.

 

[FlyWolf]

The Midwest guys would probably be a lot happier if they knew that the AirTran pilot group is not what they might be worrying about. . . . . most guys here have been through multiple airlines, and have been through the merger/furlough/growth/stagnation cycle. . . . Most are a pretty easy-going guys who are not looking to reap some windfall from this thing.

I think its not the Airtran guys that the Midex guys are worried about, its the Airtran management style that most people are worried about.

To be honest, we are spoiled here, the stuff SOME (not all) of the senior Captains get away with is unbelievable.

I do have few friends at the tranny that came from the same regional I came from, top notch guys, I am sure every airlines have their share of God gift to aviation kinda guys, Thank God for Flica, I usually just bid away from their lines or use some sick time, no need for a stressful 3 or 4 day trip.

 

[FlyWolf]

We could benefit from having the collective experience of the MEH group, just like they can benefit from our history of growth and expansion. We need to work together to leverage management, not be tools to be used against one another. In the end, we'll be one group, so let's work together to our mutual benefit.
.

Well said Ty, I totally agree

You will actually find that a big % of the Midex guys are super great guys that are willing to work with anything, you just won't find these guys in the top of our seniority list. Some of the top dogs are simply to selfish to be thinking about anything but themselfs.

 

[crashpad]

One things for certain...if AAI doesn't purchase Midwest Express, the big dogs like Northwest will finish them once and for all like Antonio Montana on a busy work day.

 

[pilotmyf]

If/when the acquisition/merger goes through, I'd then like to see us add Frontier.

The only markets left are really the international routes (Mexico, Caribbean, Canada). Going head-to-head on domestic over-served routes isn't going to do anyone any good...


*duck* INCOMING!!!

Easy, you guys haven't gotten anything yet. Just stick to undercutting everyone, that is until you can't pay your own bills