Burden on Captain

[epic!]

I have a read numerous threads talking about how low time FO's can be a burden on their captain. What exactly is meant by this? I figured if someone can pass the interview, and complete training they are well qualified to operate the aircraft.

 

[~~~^~~~]

• As Captain, you are responsible for what your FO does. He is not usually even responsible for his own mistakes. His mistake is your mistake because although the authority to manipulate the controls has been delegated, the responsibility for the conduct of the flight remains with the Captain. With PRIA a deviation can follow you around the rest of your life, which is like, forever.....
• A few get through training who can’t fly the airplane.
• More get through training that are marginal (good in one area, weak in another). These are more dangerous because you tend to let your guard down, then get surprised.
• A First Officer is a necessary part of the crew. You rely on them to do their job professionally and accurately. If a person has been doing that job for a few years you are comfortable that they can perform the task. If they are new, you don’t have as much certainty.
• Low time pilots don’t understand what is important and what isn’t. For example an airplane will fly with 200lbs too much fuel. It won’t do crap with no fuel.
• Experience = Judgment = Value. There is a reason why the Captain gets paid four times what a new hire makes.
• First Officers often have the right answer and provide truly valuable, necessary assistance to the Captain.

Things can so wrong, so quickly, in the airline environment that it is a burden to have to do your job, plus train someone, or watch them closely. The article I posted on the Air France A330 crash was a good example of a stabilized approach until the last 24 seconds of the flight. Both the First Officer and Captain had probably 10 seconds to make the right decision, which they (collectively) failed to do. I have no idea the experience of the crew, but new hires don’t always have the judgment (usually) to make good calls when the chips are down.

Of course the shoe can be on the other foot, when a seasoned First Officer gets paired with a recently upgrading Captain off other equipment. The same concerns are reversed (but the pay isn’t)..

I will someday again be a new hire First Officer and know that there will be a learning curve involved. When sitting in the right seat I will look to my left knowing I am flying on another pilot's Certificate and understand why that fourth stripe can be heavy. The only difference between this time and the first time I was a new FO, is now I know what I don't know and realize the best reply to a Captain who corrects my flying, or procedures, is a friendly "Thanks."

 

[Rally]

In the sim you are not faced with minute to minute evolving scenerios like the line. Taxing at JFK for instance, or day 5 of a trip and a taxi through JFK,crappy weather, not alot of sleep, then DING "master caution" . I think its just a overall lack of experience, making decisions etc You probably need at least 1000 TT to be a FO in a jet.

 

[labbats]

There's ground school/sim and then there's real life.

At any job it's harder to work with a new hire than someone who can see the big picture. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that. We were all newhires at one point.

 

[chimichanga]

I figured if someone can pass the interview, and complete training they are well qualified to operate the aircraft.

That's what we'd all like to think, but there are a few that slip through the cracks. When the captain expends so much energy and attention making sure the other guy isn't doing something wrong that he can't adequately do his own job, that's a burden.

 

[epic!]

Thanks for the responses. I am thinking of entering the regional world soon and want to be aware of all the challenges and concerns that myself and others may deal with.

 

[DX Rick]

Do everything the way you were taught, and you should be fine. Be an active member, but know when to shut up.
I would rather ask questions, than just go ahead and doing something. For instance I always ask (since im 5 months off IOE) "Want the wings and cowls" when where required to have them on, instead of just flipping switches. Or when landing, you get the 50ft call out, and you look at him and said "Can I get that gear down for you?" Maybe he doesn't want it, because he wants to shoot another approach.
He knows you're new and is cautious as to what you're doing in the first place.

I think the biggest way you can be a burden on any captain is to start off the day with "Did you read what they said on Flightinfo last night?" He might wanna choke you.

 

[buxflyr]

• As Captain, you are responsible for what your FO does. He is not usually even responsible for his own mistakes. His mistake is your mistake because although the authority to manipulate the controls has been delegated, the responsibility for the conduct of the flight remains with the Captain. With PRIA a deviation can follow you around the rest of your life, which is like, forever.....
• A few get through training who can’t fly the airplane.
• More get through training that are marginal (good in one area, weak in another). These are more dangerous because you tend to let your guard down, then get surprised.
• A First Officer is a necessary part of the crew. You rely on them to do their job professionally and accurately. If a person has been doing that job for a few years you are comfortable that they can perform the task. If they are new, you don’t have as much certainty.
• Low time pilots don’t understand what is important and what isn’t. For example an airplane will fly with 200lbs too much fuel. It won’t do crap with no fuel.
• Experience = Judgment = Value. There is a reason why the Captain gets paid four times what a new hire makes.
• First Officers often have the right answer and provide truly valuable, necessary assistance to the Captain.

Things can so wrong, so quickly, in the airline environment that it is a burden to have to do your job, plus train someone, or watch them closely. The article I posted on the Air France A330 crash was a good example of a stabilized approach until the last 24 seconds of the flight. Both the First Officer and Captain had probably 10 seconds to make the right decision, which they (collectively) failed to do. I have no idea the experience of the crew, but new hires don’t always have the judgment (usually) to make good calls when the chips are down.

Of course the shoe can be on the other foot, when a seasoned First Officer gets paired with a recently upgrading Captain off other equipment. The same concerns are reversed (but the pay isn’t)..

I will someday again be a new hire First Officer and know that there will be a learning curve involved. When sitting in the right seat I will look to my left knowing I am flying on another pilot's Certificate and understand why that fourth stripe can be heavy. The only difference between this time and the first time I was a new FO, is now I know what I don't know and realize the best reply to a Captain who corrects my flying, or procedures, is a friendly "Thanks."

This is an excellent post.

I am a FO and agree with every point except for one. I fly as professionally as I possibly can at all times. The captains points, tips, rules to follow from experience, etc. are invaluable, but I also always remember that I will do my job the way I was trained, the way I know how and the way I am expected to...because I am flying on MY certificate as well.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Most FO's don't want to learn Just sit there and look cool with the Ipod connected. If the Captain tries to point something out, the reaction is like- whatever. It sucks BIG TIME being an RJ captain trying to keep afloat in a massive sea of incompetence. It's EVERYWHERE in the industry, but concentrated at the regional level.

Now put the Ipod back on and get back to business of hair gel and skanky stewardesses.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If you can't handle your FO then bid back to FO or call the school house and request more training....

Complaining about your FO shows a lack of confidence on your part...not theirs....

 

[BigPappa]

Ok mister FOUR stripes lets jump of that high horse. And now that we are with both feet standing in the world called reality:

1. Both crews are responsible for safe conduct of that flight, and therefore both can be violated (recent example where an FO was flying and busted 10K, FO was violated captain was not!)

2. If you act like you know what you are doing (which means LEAD) the FO will follow and might even look up to you! If you are a looser that whines all the time and are not confident in your own skills then you will be looked upon as a looser with four stripes. BE the CAPTAIN, don't ACT!

Last week overheard a captain calling the dispatcher to see what they needed to do and what checklist to run (L).

If your always complain about your FOs then maybe your problem might be in your CRM skills!

 

[TAWS]

I don't think captains EVER screw up ..................... mmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Well, there was that time that the captain overulled me and we ended up filing ASAPs, or that time that I screwed up and we ended up filing ASAPs.

Point being: we all screw up, team players don't point fingers - they stick together and solve problems, regardless of who caused it!

On another note: I feel sorry for the captains at PSA, 9E and other places, as they get all the 300hr wunderkind (sp) - you guys should all get check airman's pay!!

 

[BLing]

Lets talk about the CA who is a burden on the FO! Ive been there and its not fun having to baby sit somebody (usally a chick) that has been around for a while. That shouldnt be any FO's job! Its amazing how some CA's havent figured out there is more to it than being good with the paper work and call outs!

 

[Jmoney]

New People

I know-it is a two-way street.
I think what people are getting at is that low-time guys really aren't ready for this. It is a steep hill to climb to get used to this stuff and it at least helps if you are comfortable working the radio and doing basic stuff. No matter what experience you have, the systems are a handful sometimes, the work environment is very busy, and having the basics down really helps. Most people aren't great at the basics with only a couple hundred hours.
Captains make mistakes too, but at least they usually don't have to worry too much about how to work the radio-that can be distracting.

 

[epic!]

On another note: I feel sorry for the captains at PSA, 9E and other places, as they get all the 300hr wunderkind (sp) - you guys should all get check airman's pay!!

Thats why I am asking. I don't want the captain to think of me as incompetent. I understand that I still have a lot to learn, but I feel that if I can land the job and complete training then my captain shouldn't worry. Or maybe I am just being naive.

 

[flyboyike]

You probably need at least 1000 TT to be a FO in a jet.

Oh good, I was starting to think I don't have what it takes.

 

[indianboy7]

Thats why I am asking. I don't want the captain to think of me as incompetent. I understand that I still have a lot to learn, but I feel that if I can land the job and complete training then my captain shouldn't worry. Or maybe I am just being naive.

Theres learning always going on for both pilots, and most captains understand that. What you as a low time FO has to realize is that you have to ask questions whenever you encounter something you don't know how to handle. If the captain has to mind-read and then correct for your mistakes, it becomes a problem.

I always tell my crew that at no time should there be any question about what each crewmember is going to do. What I've seen in a lot of new FO's is that they don't know when to communicate...anything. It's not because they're incompetent, it's because they just don't have enough experience to know when to speak up.

Just do your job as you were trained. Stay focused every second that airplane is moving (no ipods, dvd players or talking about the ugly F/A until you're both sitting there with absolutely nothing to do). It'll be a long time until you're comfortable, so pay attention and learn as much as you can.

 

[Harmattan96]

Thats why I am asking. I don't want the captain to think of me as incompetent. I understand that I still have a lot to learn, but I feel that if I can land the job and complete training then my captain shouldn't worry. Or maybe I am just being naive.

Epic, you are right now displaying the required skill necessary to continue this journey into aviation. A good aviator is one that is aware of how much he/she does NOT know rather than the opposite. Should completion of interview/training/IOE and other junk prove for you to be competent to operate in the capacity that you will be hired for? NO! Never has and never will, but the mere fact that you inquire about it shows that you are in the right state of mind to learn, on the go, armed with the skills that you currently posses.

 

[vectorvictor]

I have a read numerous threads talking about how low time FO's can be a burden on their captain. What exactly is meant by this? I figured if someone can pass the interview, and complete training they are well qualified to operate the aircraft.

First off, I'm from New Jersey so were off to a bad start.

In general low time FO's have less experience (both in the airplane and in life) than more senior seasoned guys. The goal of training is to reach the minimum standard of safety. Kind of like the day after you get your private ticket; it's a license to learn. In the meantime the Captain's workload goes up making sure your not being an itiot. It can make for a long day, especially if the FO is an itiot and arrogant at the same time. You'd be surprised how many are quite good at it.

My advice: Be nice and try not to be an itiot.


VV

 

[CA1900]

In the meantime the Captain's workload goes up making sure your not being an itiot. It can make for a long day, especially if the FO is an itiot and arrogant at the same time. You'd be surprised how many are quite good at it.

My advice: Be nice and try not to be an itiot.

Oh, sweet irony... It never fails!

 

[acaTerry]

Thats why I am asking. I don't want the captain to think of me as incompetent. I understand that I still have a lot to learn, but I feel that if I can land the job and complete training then my captain shouldn't worry. Or maybe I am just being naive.

You are being naive. The real world of 121 flying is much more fluid than the sim. The sim is nothing more than a script. You play your part, you pass. It's always the same thing every 6 months...666 takeoff...stalls...steepies...VOR approach...V1 cut...air start...ILS...go around and the engine catches fire...another approach, single engine...evac. Sprinkle a circling approach in there somewhere.
In the sim, you are the only plane in the sky, the wx is predictable, ATC gives you what you want, no FA to deal with, no "are you ready to board?", no DMI,s no late inbounds, etc etc.
You seem to have the right attitude, but don't think that flying the sim makes an airline pilot. You should do fine because you sound like you want to do things right, and that attitude is 65% of the equation.

 

[acaTerry]

Oh, sweet irony... It never fails!

And I thought I was the only member of the spelling police force...

wining
thair
looser
itiot

more to come...

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Oh, sweet irony... It never fails!

Yup, the only thing we're missing now is MELIT calling somebody a "Mooron" :laugh:

 

[135pilot]

Being responsible for all the actions during the flight is the reason why you are called a Captain, your years of experience as an FO should have prepared you for this position that is if you were not just upgraded due to company shortage or for some other selfish reason like aspiring to start earning the the fat bucks without you being ready to accept all the responsibilities that go along with it, such as leadership, what a joke. Your incompetence is your lookout, do not blame the FO, afterall he/she looks up to you for mentorship. If you cannot handle it you do not deserve to be in charge.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Mentorship? They don't pay me enough to teach basic airmanship. Lets just get from point a to b and don't make me work or surprise me with anything stupid. Like calling "positive rate" when the wheels haven't even left the pavement.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Thats why I am asking. I don't want the captain to think of me as incompetent. I understand that I still have a lot to learn, but I feel that if I can land the job and complete training then my captain shouldn't worry. Or maybe I am just being naive.

Shouldnt worry? Yeah well at the regional level they are so desperate for pilots that just because you got an interview, landed the job, and finished training just doesnt mean that much. I do not know you or how well a pilot you are. I am just talking in general terms. The above mentioned post was good. He wasnt complaining about FO's, but rather stating some very true facts. I entered the regionals with an ATP, 2000 hours, and experience with corporate and charter flying; both single pilot. Plus I had 600 hours of dual given. I wasnt a perfect pilot or FO, still not a perfect pilot, but I was far from a liability for the Captains I flew with. I had flown operationally, proven I can handle weather, ATC, passengers, etc . . . Some guy with a couple of hundred hours just does not have the experience that you dont learn in school. Passing a checkride or getting the job is just the first step in a 26 k run. Moving the rig in the regional world is one of the toughest jobs in aviation. Long hours, tough schedules, little support from company. No flight school can prepare you for 6+ legs in weather down to minimums on a 12+ hour duty day. Throw 20 minute turns, maintenance problems, plane swaps, etc . . . All the Captains on here and out there doing it, well they can toss out their concerns, gripes, and complaints. Guess what all you FO's . . . you havent been Captain yet. Captains have been FOs, so until you know the cockpit from both sides. You have half an opinion. If I do something stupid as Captain there is less chance of FAA issue with the FO than there is if it is other way around. Plain and simple; the Captain has it resting on those 4 stripes. Some guys are good, and handle it; some dont. There are crappy Captains and crappy FOs. Hopefully they arent paired together. Also, the chances of a 400 hour FNG getting a bad Captain arent a fraction of the chances of a Captain getting a bad 400 hour FNG. The best thing an FO can do to get ready for the hell of regional flying is check that ego at the crewroom, and hope the Captain does the same.

 

[dvmthwsvan]

About a month ago the FAA was reviewing the load manifests of past flights and came across a few that had counted heavy bags(60 lbs) as regular bags (30 lbs). At Comair the FO does the w&b forms and even signs them. They have nothing to do with the CA. Well, because of the mistake someone took off too heavy. did the FAA go after the FO? No, they were actually persuing certificate action against the CA, and nothing for the FO. So this goes to show you right here that you are always flying under the CA's certs.

Dave

 

[av8er2]

The new guys have a great attitude and try hard, but some of the low time pilot just can't keep up yet.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

If you can't handle your FO then bid back to FO or call the school house and request more training....

Complaining about your FO shows a lack of confidence on your part...not theirs....

1. Learn how to talk on the radio. Your poor skills are embarrassing.

2. Basic airmanship like crosswind takeoffs and landings, smooth control application, and a normal traffic pattern are not optional.

Do you really think they are going to teach this stuff at the "school house"? My only lack of confidence is in my FO. Having to always worry about what you are or aren't going to do makes my job harder than it needs to be.

I have no problem "mentoring" as I instructed for two years. I thought I was through holding hands though.

And soon enough I will be "bidding back to FO" - AT A MAJOR!

 

[DrewBlows]

Mentorship? They don't pay me enough to teach basic airmanship. Lets just get from point a to b and don't make me work or surprise me with anything stupid. Like calling "positive rate" when the wheels haven't even left the pavement.

You have two choices, you can stare at the instruments or you can impart your knowledge (which apparently you were born with) on the new FO and contribute to his education. Come to think of it you are also contributing to his education when you stare at the instruments, hopefully he realizes it's how not to act as a Captain.