Worth it to renew CFI?

[CopilotDoug]

I only had about 300 Dual given when I got my first real flying job...the problem is now...where I live at least, the schools want to see up around 1,000 dual given, and alot are looking for older instructors who are "career" guys. Ideally, I'd like to think I could still get a job CFIing if my current job goes away...but as I recently saw a couple months back, no one would hire me when I was looking for new employment. Anyone else let theirs lapse and have regrets?

 

[indefinitehold]

I let it lapse once. I had no need for it for 3 plus years. At first all I missed out on was giving friends free instruction. FREE... friends never really pay! The $100.00 burger never really tastes like a $100.00 bucks. But then I needed them to apply to the feds. Hey, you never know if you will need it. I did find myself missing the occasional flight with an old buddy.It is always good to be prepared. You spent the time and money to get them, you should keep them. I will never let them lapse again.

Hell, it as easy as being online for a couple of hours throught Jepps or any other training companies to renew them.

Oh yea, regarding no one hiring you as a CFI/II/MEI because of your experience....get your own clients and advertise yourself as experienced. They will come.

 

[woutlaw]

I'm still pretty fresh as a CFI (passed the checkride last July) but the day I passed the ride I swore I'd never let mine lapse no matter what job I eventually wound up in.

Reason being, I have no desire to take the CFI checkride again, which is the only way to get that bugger back once you let it expire. Once was enough of that noise.

So, as long as I'm still sucking air I'll renew. Good ol' Dick Collins at Flying Mag wrote a while back that the best refresher he gets is when he renews his CFI every two years, and I'd bet Dick hasn't given more than a few hours of dual in 30 years.

 

[indefinitehold]

You do not have to do the entire ride again. It is a re-issuance ride. There are many ways to renew them even if expired. If you fly 135, the POI can reissue it at his/her discretion. Another way would be to obtain an additional rating to your CFI i.e. MEI...

 

[jeroom]

I only had about 300 Dual given when I got my first real flying job...the problem is now...where I live at least, the schools want to see up around 1,000 dual given, and alot are looking for older instructors who are "career" guys. Ideally, I'd like to think I could still get a job CFIing if my current job goes away...but as I recently saw a couple months back, no one would hire me when I was looking for new employment. Anyone else let theirs lapse and have regrets?

Please... renew it!! it is worth it!

 

[CopilotDoug]

You do not have to do the entire ride again. It is a re-issuance ride. There are many ways to renew them even if expired. If you fly 135, the POI can reissue it at his/her discretion. Another way would be to obtain an additional rating to your CFI i.e. MEI...

Interesting. Second time I've heard of a POI being able to renew a cert at their discretion. In your experience, does this happen on a regular basis? Or is it a situation where the guy/gal can do it for you if they just happen to be your good buddy? By all means, I would like to keep my cert...but I could also use the $$$ right now for bills. Know whut I mean, Vern?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

If you let your CFI expire it's really no problem. Any DPE can reinstate it. The exact ride is outlined in the PTS. It's much much easier that the original CFI ride. And only a single showning of proficiency will renew all certificates. I know a pilot who is just now reintataing his CFI after it expired 20 years ago. I'm sure it won't be a problem. My best advice in such a situation is to contact a DPE and do as he suggests for the reinstatment if that's the way you want to go.

And if a POI renews it without administering the proper test, he/she is not doing their job properly. I would guess that they could be diciplined for that so I don't think that happens too often.

 

[indefinitehold]

Interesting. Second time I've heard of a POI being able to renew a cert at their discretion. In your experience, does this happen on a regular basis? Or is it a situation where the guy/gal can do it for you if they just happen to be your good buddy? By all means, I would like to keep my cert...but I could also use the $$$ right now for bills. Know whut I mean, Vern?

It is a privilege they have, but as it was explained to me from a Ops Inspector, they had to have worked and or have flown a ride of some sort with you. ie check ride, proving runs... It happens as often as the Inspector feels comfortable with.

 

[woutlaw]

You do not have to do the entire ride again. It is a re-issuance ride. There are many ways to renew them even if expired. If you fly 135, the POI can reissue it at his/her discretion. Another way would be to obtain an additional rating to your CFI i.e. MEI...

Thanks for the clarification. The ins and outs of 135 stuff are foreign to me.

Cheers!

 

[midlifeflyer]

Having worked to get it, seems that there's no good reason not to renew.

But there seems to be two discussions going on here: renew (before expiration) and reinstate (after expiration). Let's separate them. I'll stick with renewal (before it expires).

Check out 61.197. Relatively painless. Can be done online from a number of providers.

The infamous "POI Renewal" used to be for 121 captains and used to be treated by some as an "acquaintance" renewal - we had a beer together so let's renew. I doubt it was really ever supposed to be that way. The reg was changed as part of the 1997 Part 61 rewrite. Here's what it says now:

==============================
91.197(a) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate that has not expired may renew that certificate by -
(2) Presenting to an authorized FAA Flight Standards Inspector -
(ii) A record showing that, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the flight instructor has served as a company check pilot, chief flight instructor, company check airman, or flight instructor in a part 121 or part 135 operation, or in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots
==============================

It's that last part that remains of the old POI Renewal and applies to 135 as well as 121 pilots. Here's what FAA Order 8700.1, the GA Inspectors Handbook Vol 2, Chapter 11, Section 1(C) has to say about it (the reference to the "old" rule is the way the FAR provision read before the 1997 revision):

==============================
Section 61.197(a)(2)(ii). Individuals have asked FAA about the intent of the statement, “. . . in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots” in § 61.197(a)(2)(ii) and whether it has the same meaning as the old provision in § 61.197(b). The FAA rewrote § 61.197 to expand the renewal provisions, mainly to include other PICs. For example, the following PICs, who regularly evaluate pilots, have the same reward provisions as a PIC in a part 121 operation:
• A PIC of a multiple pilot flightcrew aircraft under part 135
• Corporate PICs of a multiple pilot flightcrew aircraft under part 125 or 133
• U.S. military pilots who are PICs of a multiple pilot flightcrew aircraft
• U.S. military instructor pilots and examiners who regularly evaluate pilots under part 125 or 133
• Flight instructors who actively instruct in part 61 schools

NOTE: FAA ASIs should review evidence of the applicant’s employment, which should clearly show that the applicant is in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots. ASIs also should have personal knowledge of the applicant’s flight instructing capabilities and qualities before renewing that applicant’s flight instructor certificate.
==============================

So the requirements for a "POI Renewal" are:

1. in a position that involves evaluation of pilots, such as captain of a multi-pilot crew
2. some record that shows what the pilot's position is and her evaluation duties
3. personal knowledge of the pilot's instructional capabilities.

No, it's not a POI can issues/reissue a CFI certifciate because he feels like it.

 

[Vne]

You 'paid' for the ticket and you worked for it . A renewal every 2 yrs. either through a 'clinic' or a "friendly fed" is as easy or hard as you make it. IMHO- Keep it intact in the long run you will not regret it. I've been(cfiaime) current and 'not used much' for the past 30 years and glad I still have it....fwiw

 

[Iceman07]

I let mine (CFII/MEI) lapse a few years ago, after giving about 2,000 dual. I really didn't think I would ever use it again. Big mistake. I did a reinstatement a couple of months ago with a DPE. No, it was nowhere near as bad as the original, but it was a heck of a lot more expensive than if I would have just renewed it.

I agree 100% with woutlaw, I will never, EVER let mine lapse again.

 

[340drvr]

Renew, absolutely, no question!
A lesson learned years ago, don't ever let any kind of cert. you carry in your wallet expire, especially if the renewal is relatively painless and inexpensive. You just never know when something will come up.

 

[indefinitehold]

No, it's not a POI can issues/reissue a CFI certifciate because he feels like it.[/quote]

As it is explained to me from the Inspectors, it is at their discretion. They do not have to do it.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Thanks for the insight, everybody. And thanks for the breakdown, Midlife...it helped clear up that question 100%. It seems like $300 now would be easier and cheaper than $1,000 and a reinstatement ride later.

Having worked to get it, seems that there's no good reason not to renew.

But there seems to be two discussions going on here: renew (before expiration) and reinstate (after expiration). Let's separate them. I'll stick with renewal (before it expires).

Check out 61.197. Relatively painless. Can be done online from a number of providers.

The infamous "POI Renewal" used to be for 121 captains and used to be treated by some as an "acquaintance" renewal - we had a beer together so let's renew. I doubt it was really ever supposed to be that way. The reg was changed as part of the 1997 Part 61 rewrite. Here's what it says now:

==============================
91.197(a) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate that has not expired may renew that certificate by -
(2) Presenting to an authorized FAA Flight Standards Inspector -
(ii) A record showing that, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the flight instructor has served as a company check pilot, chief flight instructor, company check airman, or flight instructor in a part 121 or part 135 operation, or in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots
==============================

It's that last part that remains of the old POI Renewal and applies to 135 as well as 121 pilots. Here's what FAA Order 8700.1, the GA Inspectors Handbook Vol 2, Chapter 11, Section 1(C) has to say about it (the reference to the "old" rule is the way the FAR provision read before the 1997 revision):

==============================
Section 61.197(a)(2)(ii). Individuals have asked FAA about the intent of the statement, “. . . in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots” in § 61.197(a)(2)(ii) and whether it has the same meaning as the old provision in § 61.197(b). The FAA rewrote § 61.197 to expand the renewal provisions, mainly to include other PICs. For example, the following PICs, who regularly evaluate pilots, have the same reward provisions as a PIC in a part 121 operation:
• A PIC of a multiple pilot flightcrew aircraft under part 135
• Corporate PICs of a multiple pilot flightcrew aircraft under part 125 or 133
• U.S. military pilots who are PICs of a multiple pilot flightcrew aircraft
• U.S. military instructor pilots and examiners who regularly evaluate pilots under part 125 or 133
• Flight instructors who actively instruct in part 61 schools

NOTE: FAA ASIs should review evidence of the applicant’s employment, which should clearly show that the applicant is in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots. ASIs also should have personal knowledge of the applicant’s flight instructing capabilities and qualities before renewing that applicant’s flight instructor certificate.
==============================

So the requirements for a "POI Renewal" are:

1. in a position that involves evaluation of pilots, such as captain of a multi-pilot crew
2. some record that shows what the pilot's position is and her evaluation duties
3. personal knowledge of the pilot's instructional capabilities.

No, it's not a POI can issues/reissue a CFI certifciate because he feels like it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks for the insight, everybody. And thanks for the breakdown, Midlife...it helped clear up that question 100%. It seems like $300 now would be easier and cheaper than $1,000 and a reinstatement ride later.

$300? That sounds like a live FIRC. There are much less expensive alternatives. Gleim, my personal preference, is about $125 including taking care of the paperwork. And American Flyers apparently charges close to the same for a lifetime of renewals, although I've heard mixed reviews of that one.

Good luck!

 

[skygod75]

$300? That sounds like a live FIRC. There are much less expensive alternatives. Gleim, my personal preference, is about $125 including taking care of the paperwork. And American Flyers apparently charges close to the same for a lifetime of renewals, although I've heard mixed reviews of that one.

Good luck!

+1 for the Gleim. I just did mine this year and will probably NEVER give an hour's worth of dual again. In fact, taking the FRIC is the only real aviation thing I do these days. Would I give dual to a student? No way, I know better. However, as another poster said, I paid for those certificates so letting them go would make me sad.

 

[CopilotDoug]

+1 for the Gleim. I just did mine this year and will probably NEVER give an hour's worth of dual again. In fact, taking the FRIC is the only real aviation thing I do these days. Would I give dual to a student? No way, I know better. However, as another poster said, I paid for those certificates so letting them go would make me sad.

My CFI is done at the end of this month. I typically pay the $300 and do the live FIRC as Midlife said...for me, it just takes two solid days and it's out of the way with. With the on-line refresher...Do you have to FINISH it before your cert expires? I'm not implying I'd intentionally put it off, but if you finish it June 3rd...does it not count?

 

[midlifeflyer]

With the on-line refresher...Do you have to FINISH it before your cert expires?

Yes (although I don't know what you mean bu June 3). But you have so much advance time. there should be no reason to butt up against the deadline. I usually do mine the month before expiration taking some time here and there over a week or so until it's done.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Yes (although I don't know what you mean bu June 3). But you have so much advance time. there should be no reason to butt up against the deadline. I usually do mine the month before expiration taking some time here and there over a week or so until it's done.

Sory, meant to say July 3rd. So it sounds like there is no grace period...fair enough. I might as well get cracking on applying on-line.