Navagating across the pond before GPS

[freightdogfred]

Don't forget OMEGA/VLF!

Ahhh..yes, I was wondering when somebody would bring that up. Many crossings with those old Tracor 7800's, MNPS certified +or-5 miles, 95 % of the time. (provided there was no solar activity.) More than once at about 30 west one would start heading north, and the other south-Split the difference and start dead reckoning. Compass heading, drift angle, airspeed and time, just like old Lucky Lindy.

 

[Phaedrus]

Speaking of sextants and LOPs...that reminds me of breaking up the boredom by popping hard boiled eggs out the top of the sextant port trying for a direct hit on the vertical fin of the 130.

 

[tomgoodman]

Where am I?

And there was "Ocean Station November", a ship anchored about halfway to Hawaii, which could give you a radar fix from his (approximately) known position. I think there was an "Ocean Station Papa" in the mid-Atlantic as well.
A truly ancient radio navaid was "Consolan", sort of a super, over-the-horizon ADF. One old navigator said it would tell you which half of the world you were in.

 

[Donsa320]

And there was "Ocean Station November", a ship anchored about halfway to Hawaii, which could give you a radar fix from his (approximately) known position. I think there was an "Ocean Station Papa" in the mid-Atlantic as well.
A truly ancient radio navaid was "Consolan", sort of a super, over-the-horizon ADF. One old navigator said it would tell you which half of the world you were in.

Ah yes Consolan. We tried it a few times in Europe. Not worth much. But we could tune in the teletype stations on Iceland on our ADF receivers while we were still on the ground at Prestwick. They were very powerful, but no ident.
I believe the ocean station ships did not really anchor. They were to stay in a rather large area and they did it by steaming into the wind and current to the edge of their area and then drifting back across it to the other side. As I recall they transmitted some coded info on their NDB signal which let you calculate roughly where within their area they really were.

DC

 

[Donsa320]

Read "Fate is the Hunter".

Yep and in the movie "The High and the Mighty" the radio altimeter they use is the one I referred to for use with the driftmeter. That is why it was at the navigators station, not in the panel. Gann got most things right. In "Fate..." Gann also makes remarks about chasing seniority numbers in hopes of beating them. Usually futile!.

DC

 

[pilotyip]

How Rad Alt was used for Nav

The radar alt was used for pressure pattern Nav; you flew a constant altimeter setting to navigate south of a high-pressure center in the Northern Hemisphere eastbound, or north if westbound. That way you kept the tailwind all the time, and you moved left or right at a constant radar alt height to keep the altimeters matched to the pressure altimeter. I never used it, but I had to demonstrate how to use it on my Nav school final exam. Was told it was used in 40-50's in recips like C-54, C-118, and C-121.

 

[seagle]

Grid Navigation

And let's not forget about grid navigation for those trips across the pole to Moscow. Ground Plot DR, Air Plot DR, Wind Computations, MPP, Compass Precession and Precession and Nutation of the celestial bodies.

Wow - this is bringing back some memories.

 

[Spooky 2]

Ah yes Consolan. We tried it a few times in Europe. Not worth much. But we could tune in the teletype stations on Iceland on our ADF receivers while we were still on the ground at Prestwick. They were very powerful, but no ident.
I believe the ocean station ships did not really anchor. They were to stay in a rather large area and they did it by steaming into the wind and current to the edge of their area and then drifting back across it to the other side. As I recall they transmitted some coded info on their NDB signal which let you calculate roughly where within their area they really were.

DC

The ship would stay within a 100 mile grid and report which grid he "thought" he was in, thus giving you a chance to do a reverse plot on your position based upon his aasumed positin within the grid. All very crude by todays standards. Besides the ship in the NA there was a Candaian ship (Yankee) up in the NoPac that worked those waters in the same manner. Lets see a show of hands on how many board members have a Flight Navigators ticket? Pan Am 1966/67 thank you!

 

[seagle]

Flight Navigator Ticket

I'm in.

 

[Spooky 2]

And let's not forget about grid navigation for those trips across the pole to Moscow. Ground Plot DR, Air Plot DR, Wind Computations, MPP, Compass Precession and Precession and Nutation of the celestial bodies.

Wow - this is bringing back some memories.

"accross the pole"? Can't imagine any tracks or routings that would actualy take you accross the N Pole unless you had deviated intentionally to cross over or near the pole. My experience with Grid was limited to European to west coast of the USA where you would pass through the NCA/AMU at or around 73N.

 

[loewinbrau]

At ATA, we still fly all over the world using the Litton 92 INS. Just flew trans-pacific in an L1011, SEA-OKO yesterday. The 92 is quite accurate, but not very user friendly.

 

[bocefus]

And there was "Ocean Station November", a ship anchored about halfway to Hawaii, which could give you a radar fix from his (approximately) known position. I think there was an "Ocean Station Papa" in the mid-Atlantic as well.
A truly ancient radio navaid was "Consolan", sort of a super, over-the-horizon ADF. One old navigator said it would tell you which half of the world you were in.

Don't ever recall Ocean Station Papa in the Atlantic but Ocean Stations Charlie and Juliet were in the Atlantic with NDB's for obtaining a fix. Never heard of them providing radar fixes??

 

[seagle]

Grid Navigation

Spooky 2,

I think we may be talking about two different grids. When I was in SAC we used grid charts to help navigate up north because of the rapid convergence of longitude lines, thus affecting MH and TH rather quickly. Grid navigation eliminated the need for the compass to be "slaved" and allowed navigation in the DG mode. Hope this is right - I'm going back 25 years.

 

[Crzipilot]

Seagle, think your right. Was qualified Grid, but never did it, and barely remember it. But we had route authority using DC8's with omega 7800/7900's but with routes going north, had to switch to Grid, I.E. plotting charts were square grids and you navigated in DG, taking plots etc....

 

[seagle]

Grid Navigation

Crzipilot,

I remember the toughest part of Grid navigation was Grid entry and Grid exit. If you miscalculated Grid entry you were going to have a long day. Once you were in Grid, all you had to do was kill the drift and calculate compass precession to maintain your Grid track.

I recently flew a King Air 200 with the Collins Pro Line 21 - we have truly come along way from the days of radar and celestial navigation.