Southwest joins the 21st Century!!

[Reebo]

Here comes Auto Throttles and Vnav


http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=8839

 

[Flyarcticcat]

Sounds like it will save more money on fuel. Now all they have to do is go to the electronic flight bag.

 

[mach none]

The end of the world must be near.

 

[CF34-3B1]

Damn, I got all excited when I saw this thread, I thought we were getting free iPods or something.

 

[johnsonrod]

When will they insist on changing the overhead panel?

 

[HalinTexas]

VNAV sucks in the decent. A/T work fine.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Hal,
I've never flown a 737 yet (except the sim on my type rating course). But the VNAV on the A320 is great as long as you put winds in the FMS. What does it do in the 73 that you don't like?
Thanks,
BS

 

[catIIIc]

VNAV sucks in the decent. A/T work fine.

VNAV works great on the NG's but on the classics it can be kind of a pain.

 

[JAM-BRO]

VNAV sucks in the decent. A/T work fine.

Works pretty sweet on the 757.....

 

[REK]

It will all be here in 18 months.

 

[Nindiri]

Auto throttles are overrated. I can operate them better than the computer.

 

[calfo]

VNAV looks good on paper - right until you get the "180 to the marker" clearance at the last minute.

 

[HalinTexas]

Hal,
I've never flown a 737 yet (except the sim on my type rating course). But the VNAV on the A320 is great as long as you put winds in the FMS. What does it do in the 73 that you don't like?
Thanks,
BS

All of the problems I've had with it are on the descent. As long as the descent is on time and uninterupted (by ATC), your forecast winds are accurate, and no other changes are made, it will work. Not as well as the B757. I've seen the VS hit 4000fpm on the NG and the VNAV diconnect due to overspeed (vomit comet). All inflicted upon by the VNAV function. VNAV will not correct for speed until the AS is =/- 15 knots.

It works great for T/O power, climb, cruise, and VNAV approaches (again if set up properly and uninterupted). ATC will reek havoc in the system. I usually switch to VS if ATC interupts. On the descent page it will give you a good target VS to shoot for or guess what the VNAV will be doing.

A/T have always worked fine. Situational awareness improves greatly!

VNAV for T/O and climb will most likely save SWA quite a bit of fuel. For example: I've ridden SWA quite a bit and have noticed that while they set a "reduced power" for takeoff, that when climb power is set, it is an increase in power. I've never experienced that in the NG on VNAV. You can change the "Cost Index" to adjust for variables such as winds, routing, delays, crew costs, etc. This "can" save money as well if you spend the money and time to learn to use it. At ATA this has been a constant struggle with management to get them to properly use this function.

VNAV and A/T have not stopped many from hand flying the airplane. It's just one more tool available to the crew. "There are many ways to skin a cat," and you can't put every contingency in the AFM (or whatever). Don't fear it, but keep an eye on it.

 

[HalinTexas]

VNAV looks good on paper - right until you get the "180 to the marker" clearance at the last minute.

Speed intervention works great, but you won't use VNAV on an ILS. Plan ahead, configure a little early if you're fast.

 

[mannyaplus11]

Now, if you can get your glass panels to look like glass instead of round dials, that would be sweet!!!

 

[HalinTexas]

Now, if you can get your glass panels to look like glass instead of round dials, that would be sweet!!!

I think they'd freak out at how much the ASI tape wiggles vs. the ASI dial when they fly it. The ADC doesn't smooth it out much. You just don't notice it as much with the dial.

 

[CF34-3B1]

Now, if you can get your glass panels to look like glass instead of round dials, that would be sweet!!!

That, and flip the switch so we don't have to do the 500 400 etc call outs.

But I really wanna watch the old guys fly an RNP approach in CWS Pitch + Roll

 

[HalinTexas]

But I really wanna watch the old guys fly an RNP approach in CWS Pitch + Roll

= BOOM!

Not to worry. The FAA won't let that be a "normal" procedure. Fully coupled, or not at all.

 

[Jolly Roger]

I have flown bigger Boeings that are much better than either the 737-300 or 700 in pitch control in level change (flight level change) and VNAV. I am no engineer and have no idea why, but assume there must be software differences that contribute.

Some at SWA claim that lack of autothrottles or other reasons are the culprit, but I don't think so. I have jumpseated in Cactus 73's where VNAV was properly used, but was suprised by the relatively abrupt pitch changes that I saw in comparison with a 747-400 for example. It is almost like Hal is always just a step behind. Throw out the gear in level change in a descent, and if you dont wind the speed back in the window immediately you will see some pretty hefty pitch down rates and descent rates to hold speed that other aircraft dampen out better.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Now, if you can get your glass panels to look like glass instead of round dials, that would be sweet!!!

Well...OK, we 'll do it...but only because you want it. <eyes rolling>

 

[geshields]

I have flown bigger Boeings that are much better than either the 737-300 or 700 in pitch control in level change (flight level change) and VNAV. I am no engineer and have no idea why, but assume there must be software differences that contribute.

Some at SWA claim that lack of autothrottles or other reasons are the culprit, but I don't think so. I have jumpseated in Cactus 73's where VNAV was properly used, but was suprised by the relatively abrupt pitch changes that I saw in comparison with a 747-400 for example. It is almost like Hal is always just a step behind. Throw out the gear in level change in a descent, and if you dont wind the speed back in the window immediately you will see some pretty hefty pitch down rates and descent rates to hold speed that other aircraft dampen out better.

Most likely because they have different boxes. I know our 737's use the Smith box and our 757, 767, and 777's use Honeywell.

VNAV (737's) works very well in the descent as long as the winds are updated and the altimeter setting is in. You only get screwed when you have 310 or greater in the descent and ATC tells you to slow and still make the crossing restriction.

 

[mannyaplus11]

Well...OK, we 'll do it...but only because you want it. <eyes rolling>

Oh, come on, feel the love, man, feel the love.

 

[HalinTexas]

I have flown bigger Boeings that are much better than either the 737-300 or 700 in pitch control in level change (flight level change) and VNAV. I am no engineer and have no idea why, but assume there must be software differences that contribute.

Some at SWA claim that lack of autothrottles or other reasons are the culprit, but I don't think so. I have jumpseated in Cactus 73's where VNAV was properly used, but was suprised by the relatively abrupt pitch changes that I saw in comparison with a 747-400 for example. It is almost like Hal is always just a step behind. Throw out the gear in level change in a descent, and if you dont wind the speed back in the window immediately you will see some pretty hefty pitch down rates and descent rates to hold speed that other aircraft dampen out better.

Excuse me?

 

[Alcatraz]

Excuse me?

I noticed that too... I think he meant "Hal" as in the Hal 9000 computer from 2001. Remember, "What are you doing, Dave?"

And HAL was just one letter each away from IBM...

 

[Alcatraz]

VNAV for T/O and climb will most likely save SWA quite a bit of fuel. For example: I've ridden SWA quite a bit and have noticed that while they set a "reduced power" for takeoff, that when climb power is set, it is an increase in power. I've never experienced that in the NG on VNAV.

The reason climb thrust is more than reduced takeoff thrust is because SWA does not use reduced climb thrust. I think the argument is actually in favor of fuel conservation (the quicker you climb, the quicker you save fuel at altitude). From what I remember of the -800 at ATA, we were supposed to select full climb thrust at 5000 feet to save gas, but nearly everyone forgot except in DCA. I kinda think using reduced climb thrust would save more money in the long run with less wear and tear, but what do I know.

VNAV and A/T have not stopped many from hand flying the airplane. It's just one more tool available to the crew. "There are many ways to skin a cat," and you can't put every contingency in the AFM (or whatever). Don't fear it, but keep an eye on it.

VERY well said.

 

[HalinTexas]

From what I remember of the -800 at ATA, we were supposed to select full climb thrust at 5000 feet to save gas, but nearly everyone forgot except in DCA. I kinda think using reduced climb thrust would save more money in the long run with less wear and tear, but what do I know.

When I was on the B757 we used to select "Climb 1" then "Max Climb" as the VS began to tail off. When I switched over to the B737 we were told to select your power, i.e. 27k, 26k, 24k, and assume your temperature and let the computer select your climb power. Still use the same procedure. VNAV schedules "max climb" somewhere around 14000'. Climbs well, just handles like a truck.

 

[HalinTexas]

The reason climb thrust is more than reduced takeoff thrust is because SWA does not use reduced climb thrust. I think the argument is actually in favor of fuel conservation (the quicker you climb, the quicker you save fuel at altitude).

I don't believe this would be the case, largely due to the fact you're not climbing at "best rate." (Or are you?) I think it's a throwback to the -200 days for simplicity and commonality, like the EFIS set up.

 

[Alcatraz]

I don't believe this would be the case, largely due to the fact you're not climbing at "best rate." (Or are you?) I think it's a throwback to the -200 days for simplicity and commonality, like the EFIS set up.

In theory we're climbing at VNAV ECON CLB speed. SWA actually has VNAV in the FMC, and I use it a ton, except that it's not an engageable vertical mode on the autopilot (unless the button cover is missing... I don't know how I know that!).

I still think the max climb power setting is for fuel conservation, but we base our climb speed on more than just best rate... we use best economy for our given cost index.

 

[CaptainKrash]

The end of the world must be near.

Nahhh, when they get ACARS that will be the sign

 

[GuppyWN]

Dude. We've had acars for years now.

Gup