College-trained vs. Non-college-trained

[Shaheen]

http://www.avweb.com/podcast/files/2007-04-30.mp3

OK, here we go. Another debate about ‘college training’ vs ‘non-college training’ – in this case, no training at all.

I have always maintained that in aviation, a ‘specific college’ degree in flight or ATC training does not necessary make you a better pilot or Air Traffic Controller. We all have our own opinions and we should all respect those who differ from us on this topic. Still, I would like to invite all to debate on this: For & Against. Both for Pilots and Air Traffic Controllers.

Now, once you hear this Podcast and read other recent FAA ‘new-hire’ drive news, you’d realize that there really is a ‘class’ issue going on between the college-trained new –hires and non-college trained new hires.

In some ways it reminds me of discussions on this board about pilots who had to log many thousands of hours, accumulate more debt, work longer hours as CFI/freightdogs etc., before finally securing the 121 Turbine job vs. those who got hired to fly modern regional jets with much lower time, i.e., 300-800 hour range. Or…could we really compare this issue with the ATC issue?

I ask every one not to put down either side, but simply discuss the issue, root causes, and what could be done. Or is this even an issue? Why would a college-trained ATC controller have an issue with those without it simply because the first party decided to go to college and accumulated debt.

Thanks all for their input.

 

[Prop2Jet]

good job vs. bad job when fired or furloughed.... you decide.

 

[GEORGE DUBYA]

how much do air traffic controllers start at? Everyone know that college trained is better. We took a wide range or classes and would say our general aviation topic knowledge is a bit better. We learned from professors not 21 year old wet behind the ear CFI's who didn't even read the book you are learning from.

 

[Rick James]

how much do air traffic controllers start at? Everyone know that college trained is better. We took a wide range or classes and would say our general aviation topic knowledge is a bit better. We learned from professors not 21 year old wet behind the ear CFI's who didn't even read the book you are learning from.

What? My head is hurting a little now.

 

[DiverDriver]

What? My head is hurting a little now.

Strategery!

 

[WalterSobchak]

I know this thread really pertains to pilots/ATC...but...

Seems the problem with most college-educated people I know (not just pilots) is the fact that they have almost zero interpersonal skills and expect everything to be handed to them because they have a framed piece of paper hanging on thier wall. They don't want to work for anything...until reality hits them.

I have a buddy that recently graduated college and has already been through 3 jobs because "he would rather be unemployed and live off mom and dad that have to work his way up". He just wants to start at the top.

Meanwhile, I've worked since I was 14 years old and had to quit college because I was too "male, middle class, and white" to qualify for any kind of financial aid or subsidized loans...my parents, though technically middle class, didn't have the money to put me through school...and I ran out of money.

Last year (before I landed a dispatch gig...which took alot of saving and alot of overtime to pay for school), I barely cleared $25k as a ramper, am no longer required to count my parents' income, and STILL don't qualify for any kind of financial aid.

My point is, a large percentage of the recent college grads I know have had everything handed to them...be it from their parents or qualifying for ridiculous amounts of financial aid because of the pigmentation of their skin/thier mother was a crack addict/they aced one stupid test, etc. Someone who has had to work to learn things the hard way tends to appreciate what they have and try a helluva lot harder to do things the right way.

I know, kinda off topic...but I needed to rant.

Oh...I threw a beer can at my buddy for that comment about not wanting to work.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Skool?

.[/I]

I'm sorry - what did you say about not having an education?

It sounds like you and I came from a similar background, and I worked my way through college and also took out loans and worked to get and keep scholarships. . .

Oddly enough, they didn't just give me that piece of paper, either.

That said, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and a if you find yourself a good job without a degree, more power to ya.

 

[WalterSobchak]

I'm sorry - what did you say about not having an education?

It sounds like you and I came from a similar background, and I worked my way through college and also took out loans and worked to get and keep scholarships. . .

Oddly enough, they didn't just give me that piece of paper, either.

That said, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and a if you find yourself a good job without a degree, more power to ya.

Hey now...I said MOST college-educated people I KNOW. I'm not saying that is everyone.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Now if you said, "most college educated management-types" have no personalities, I'm totally with ya! :beer:

 

[Goose Egg]

Hey now...I said MOST college-educated people I KNOW. I'm not saying that is everyone.

Most college-educated people that I know work very hard for their own success. In addition, they are able to converse on a wide variety of subjects, showing their intellectual depth. But then again, I'm not saying that's everyone.

Most people I know who don't have a college education are convinced that they know everything and that they are somehow superior and have a stronger work ethic than those unfortunate chumps who got their degrees. ("The more you learn, the more you don't know.") But I'm not saying that's everyone.

How's that for interpersonal skills?

-Goose

 

[Shrek]

Pointless thread.........

 

[WalterSobchak]

Most people I know who don't have a college education are convinced that they know everything and that they are somehow superior and have a stronger work ethic than those unfortunate chumps who got their degrees. ("The more you learn, the more you don't know.") But I'm not saying that's everyone.

How's that for interpersonal skills?

-Goose

Since this was obviously aimed at me...I'll bite.

I don't claim to know it all. I learn something new everyday. I make it a point to try to learn something new whenever I can. The more I know, the better quality of work I'm able to put out there. The more I learn, the more efficient

I'm not bagging on anyone with a degree...I'm still working to get earn one myself. Believe me, it isn't that I lack a brain. I lacked "give a damn" when I was a freshman, blew most of my college savings (and then some), and I regret it at times. That said, I learned lessons that you don't get in college. If I had finished my degree, I would likely be in a job I hate. I'm happy with what I do and I have skills from work experience that you just don't get in college.

What I've been getting at is this: I'm 2 months shy of 25 years old, so most of the college graduates I know are young. fresh out of college, and haven't ever had to hold a job. When they get out into the real world, many have a hard time functioning. Most I know hate the field they got into...the field they got into because someone 4-6 years ago told them they should aim for certain occupations that pay a certain wage, rather than aim for something they will be happy with. Happiness goes a helluva lot farther than a few extra bucks.

The only thing unfortunate is the fact that smart, hard working people like me are looked down upon for not having that piece of paper when a big reason they don't have that diploma is financial issues.

Pointless thread.........

Agreed...I shoulda just kept my mouth shut.

 

[Goose Egg]

Maybe I was a bit hard on ya...

Since this was obviously aimed at me...I'll bite.

I'm not bagging on anyone with a degree...I'm still working to get earn one myself. Believe me, it isn't that I lack a brain. I lacked "give a damn" when I was a freshman, blew most of my college savings (and then some), and I regret it at times... What I've been getting at is this: I'm 2 months shy of 25 years old, so most of the college graduates I know are young. fresh out of college, and haven't ever had to hold a job. When they get out into the real world, many have a hard time functioning.

I've defnitely got to agree with you there--many do have a hard time functioning, myself included. It hasn't exactly been a cake walk for me either, but college is something that I'm glad I did. I'd like to go back sometime for more education. But I do like to think that I work hard, but definitely, I could have done things better.

Most I know hate the field they got into...the field they got into because someone 4-6 years ago told them they should aim for certain occupations that pay a certain wage, rather than aim for something they will be happy with. Happiness goes a helluva lot farther than a few extra bucks.

This morning I was having a conversation about this very thing with a very good (college educated) friend of mine. We are actually both at a very similar point in our lives; she is trying to decide if she wants to continue grad school for high school counseling, (and if not, what then?) And I am trying to decide whether I should take a job flying jets at Regional X, when I know it will be good for my career, yet very taxing in all other respects, or a somewhat less prestigious piston 135 gig at company Y, which will not equate to turbine time at all (PIC or otherwise) but it will be something that I know I'll absolutely enjoy. You are right, happiness is better, yet it's sometimes so hard not to listen to everyone saying that this is a no-brainier.

The only thing unfortunate is the fact that smart, hard working people like me are looked down upon for not having that piece of paper when a big reason they don't have that diploma is financial issues.

No dude. That piece of paper had nothing to do with intelligence or capacity. I've met SO many people without degrees that contribute enormously to society and lead very happy lives. It's just that having a degree opens up more doors for you.

Sorry for coming across that way. I'm just stressed out and trying to scratch by on my CFI job.

-Goose

 

[Flybet3]

http://www.avweb.com/podcast/files/2007-04-30.mp3

OK, here we go. Another debate about ‘college training’ vs ‘non-college training’ – in this case, no training at all.

I have always maintained that in aviation, a ‘specific college’ degree in flight or ATC training does not necessary make you a better pilot or Air Traffic Controller. We all have our own opinions and we should all respect those who differ from us on this topic. Still, I would like to invite all to debate on this: For & Against. Both for Pilots and Air Traffic Controllers.

Now, once you hear this Podcast and read other recent FAA ‘new-hire’ drive news, you’d realize that there really is a ‘class’ issue going on between the college-trained new –hires and non-college trained new hires.

In some ways it reminds me of discussions on this board about pilots who had to log many thousands of hours, accumulate more debt, work longer hours as CFI/freightdogs etc., before finally securing the 121 Turbine job vs. those who got hired to fly modern regional jets with much lower time, i.e., 300-800 hour range. Or…could we really compare this issue with the ATC issue?

I ask every one not to put down either side, but simply discuss the issue, root causes, and what could be done. Or is this even an issue? Why would a college-trained ATC controller have an issue with those without it simply because the first party decided to go to college and accumulated debt.

Thanks all for their input.

It doesnt matter, it all comes down to the person. You might be college trained and be a complete idiot, you might be a non college grad and be sharp, or it could be backwards. How many people go to college and just "pass" their classes? A sh*tload! After flying with auto-throttles, FMS, flight director and in some cases auto-land you're not going to remember or even care about half of the "book" info you got in college.

 

[Skaff]

I know this thread really pertains to pilots/ATC...but...

Seems the problem with most college-educated people I know (not just pilots) is the fact that they have almost zero interpersonal skills and expect everything to be handed to them because they have a framed piece of paper hanging on thier wall. They don't want to work for anything...until reality hits them.

I have a buddy that recently graduated college and has already been through 3 jobs because "he would rather be unemployed and live off mom and dad that have to work his way up". He just wants to start at the top.

Meanwhile, I've worked since I was 14 years old and had to quit college because I was too "male, middle class, and white" to qualify for any kind of financial aid or subsidized loans...my parents, though technically middle class, didn't have the money to put me through school...and I ran out of money.

Last year (before I landed a dispatch gig...which took alot of saving and alot of overtime to pay for school), I barely cleared $25k as a ramper, am no longer required to count my parents' income, and STILL don't qualify for any kind of financial aid.

My point is, a large percentage of the recent college grads I know have had everything handed to them...be it from their parents or qualifying for ridiculous amounts of financial aid because of the pigmentation of their skin/thier mother was a crack addict/they aced one stupid test, etc. Someone who has had to work to learn things the hard way tends to appreciate what they have and try a helluva lot harder to do things the right way.

I know, kinda off topic...but I needed to rant.

Oh...I threw a beer can at my buddy for that comment about not wanting to work.

That may be the case with some college grads, just like the case that some non-college grads end up without respectable jobs. For me, I never worked so hard and learned so much. Got married young, kids came early, took loans out for school, worked at least one, sometimes two full-time jobs all through college, had several flying gigs before my first 121 flying gig, and ended up making 6 figures by year 4 at my airline. I'm glad you learned so much from not attending college, but making half-assed generalizations makes you sound ignorant.

 

[Tarzan]

I can say this much about those with degree versus those without, at least those with degrees put forth the effort to get one.

I don't have one right now and wish I'd put forth the effort long ago instead of doing while I have a full time job and being a full time daddy. I am one class shy of my AA and will be continuing on with the BA soon.

 

[Mookie]

I know this thread really pertains to pilots/ATC...but...

Seems the problem with most college-educated people I know (not just pilots) is the fact that they have almost zero interpersonal skills and expect everything to be handed to them because they have a framed piece of paper hanging on thier wall. They don't want to work for anything...until reality hits them.

I have a buddy that recently graduated college and has already been through 3 jobs because "he would rather be unemployed and live off mom and dad that have to work his way up". He just wants to start at the top.

Meanwhile, I've worked since I was 14 years old and had to quit college because I was too "male, middle class, and white" to qualify for any kind of financial aid or subsidized loans...my parents, though technically middle class, didn't have the money to put me through school...and I ran out of money.

Last year (before I landed a dispatch gig...which took alot of saving and alot of overtime to pay for school), I barely cleared $25k as a ramper, am no longer required to count my parents' income, and STILL don't qualify for any kind of financial aid.

My point is, a large percentage of the recent college grads I know have had everything handed to them...be it from their parents or qualifying for ridiculous amounts of financial aid because of the pigmentation of their skin/thier mother was a crack addict/they aced one stupid test, etc. Someone who has had to work to learn things the hard way tends to appreciate what they have and try a helluva lot harder to do things the right way.

I know, kinda off topic...but I needed to rant.

Oh...I threw a beer can at my buddy for that comment about not wanting to work.

Lay off the crackpipe...and mellow out. I personally don't know anyone, myself included, who had college handed to them. we all had to work our asses off, knowing full well that it would be an investment in our future to stick with it no matter what it took. I'm sure you think that everyone just did beer bongs thru four years, but I can assure you that was not the case...(entirely...):beer:

College teaches you how to learn...

Mookie

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

I posted on this subject several months back. There are good pilots with and without degrees. A company does thereselve's a huge disservice if they only hire with degrees. What they may wind up with is four year "beer bong" boy who did the minimums to get by" instead of a hard working no degree guy with years of hard earned experience.

Funny how it's usually "beer boy" who exhibits the greatest sense of entitlement..

 

[Skaff]

Just to make it clear, WalterSobchak is very smart. He PM'd me to let me know how well he did on the SAT's. Point taken Walt, there are smart people that haven't gone to college. On the other hand, there are dumb people that haven't gone to college. If you ask me, college isn't just about learning, (there's a bunch of dumb college grads out there) it's about starting something and finishing it. A college degree says that even though you may be hitting road blocks and find it difficult to complete a goal, you find a way to do it and you accomplish your task. It says your a finisher. Now maybe you were a little too white and prominent, but if someone says you can't get loans to go to school, you talk to someone else, you don't quit.

Generally speaking, I think that one of the problems with non-college grads in the workforce is that they occasionally are trying to prove their smarts. Does that make those individuals dumb...no, just annoying.

 

[DrewBlows]

I have never been able to tell if the guy sitting next to me is a college graduate or not. In fact, the topic rarely comes up.