ASA rumor

[737 Pylt]

I suspect ALPA is just trying to figure out how to "spin" it..... It is a fact, just waiting for the spin....

So John, how does the rjdc spin it?

737

 

[Richard Gozinya]

It is a fact,

FACT???????? The only thing that is accepted as truth in this world without facts is global warming.

What is your source????

Dick

 

["GO AROUND"]

I'm trying to move on to better things just like 2/3rds of the pilots at ASA. Until that happens I will support a fair contract for ASA pilots.

 

[flylowman]

no support anymore... deal with the reality we have created for ourselves[/COLOR]


No support. Looks like you are giving alot of support. Why do you want to undermine our union? Yes you are a part also. We are in tuff times now and need everyone to step up. The only way to "deal with the reality we have created for ourselves", is get this thing over, get some scope, and put this whole ugly mess behind us.

Everyone needs to fly the contract. Stop all this whining on the radio. It makes me sick, and it should you also.

 

[~~~^~~~]

So John, how does the rjdc spin it?

737

737 Pylt: Why bring the RJDC into this? What relevance is there?

I think your side won the RJDC conflict. There are seven different DCI Carriers in Atlanta, the ASA pilots no longer have the negotiating capital to obtain a leading contract and are beginning to learn just how ALPA's action to lock them out of Delta's scope has effected their situation. We are being replaced by non union pilots - you have won, Sir.

The RJDC will likely win their lawsuit. But for folks like me who support the cause of a more inclusive union that brings pilots together, we have lost. I'm finding other work despite the fact that I had always hoped that ASA and Comair pilots would be able to negotiate contracts which would make their current position flying Delta passengers a job worthy of a professional pilot.

The RJDC has had a positive effect. ALPA was restrained from some of their more predatory inclinations on the Delta property. We are in less of a mess than our similarly situated brothers who do business with US Air and North West. ASA's MEC has been fully funded and recieved support from ALPA National to the extent that they remained clear of conflicts with the Delta MEC.

John is not a plaintiff. He is a patriot in the custom of Ben Franklin who also wrote extensively about the causes of his time. Much of what he writes might be unpopular - but - are we not in the exact position that he said we would be in eight years ago when ALPA decided its' Merger and Fragmentation policies were only applicable to a separate, preferred, class of ALPA member?

We need one ALPA and One Level of Representation. The deep divisions in our union have grown into chasms which become more difficult to bridge with every member who has forgotten that the basic tenent of unionism is to bring people together to improve a profession.

The Delta pilots gave up their most recent scope concessions in exchange for "bargaining credits" which I believe were evaluated by ALPA at $160,000,000. These bargaining credits had a cost. The ASA pilots are paying that cost:

1. There are fewer mainline Delta jobs as a result of these CRJ900's and E-Jets for ASA guys & gals to apply for.
2. Some of the CRJ900's were taken straight from ASA's book of firm orders None of this flying is being performed by ASA pilots.
3. ASA pilots are being replaced by non union pilots performing this flying
4. Delta complains that DCI service is tarnishing the Widget while the DCI carriers beat the ever living snot out of each other trying to underbid each other for Delta's Requests for Proposals. You can have high quality, or cheap. Comair had a high quality product. They have been destroyed. Mesa on the other hand continues to grow their business with Delta as fast as they can.

You won, we lost. The Plaintiffs will probably get something for their trouble. The rest of us will try to find jobs.

In the mean while the RJDC is the only voice speaking for the necessary reforms to keep ALPA viable into this century. They still have my support and if hired at a mainline carrier, I will continue to support the idea of a union that brings together and represents all of its members.

~~~^~~~

 

[701EV]

Fin's

You are SO right!

Maybe we can dream that one day ALPA will wake up and smell the coffee

701EV

 

[DrunkIrishman]

John is not a plaintiff. He is a patriot in the custom of Ben Franklin who also wrote extensively about the causes of his time.

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

When John invents something useful someday, I'll agree with that statement. Until that day, you're nucking futs Fins.

 

[ohplease!]

737 Pylt: Why bring the RJDC into this? What relevance is there?

because he's too simple minded to bring up anything useful or relevant.....by the way, does anyone know if I can put the idiot on ignore even when you guy's quote him? I've put him on ignore but, occasionally I still have to witness the train wreck that has become 737POS.....

 

[scarlet]

Oh please--get a life---you know only way to have job sec. is be with Skywest---I vote for ONE LIST, does well for Republic, Freedumb/Mesa*s

 

[~~~^~~~]

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

When John invents something useful someday, I'll agree with that statement.

Ok, OK, I reached a little far with that one... like way over the top.

It was a reference to using the written word to help shape a debate. Ben Franklin used his time to fule the debate as to whether the Rattle Snake, the Turkey, or the Bald Eagle were appropriate symbols for the US. Ben was in favor of the snake or the turkey over the Bald Eagle - hey every body misses one every once in a while.

 

[flylowman]

sorry

 

[PCL_128]

The RJDC will likely win their lawsuit.

Not a snowball's chance in hell. Bet you the final claim is dismissed before the end of the year.

The RJDC has had a positive effect.

Yes, it has....on Mr. Haber. He's made quite a bit of money off of this ridiculous lawsuit.

A positive effect on the profession or the Association? Nope. All this lawsuit has done is further divide the mainline pilots from the regional pilots.

John is not a plaintiff. He is a patriot in the custom of Ben Franklin who also wrote extensively about the causes of his time.

Oh crap, I think I'm gonna be sick! uke:

The Plaintiffs will probably get something for their trouble. The rest of us will try to find jobs.

If the plaintiffs win anything (the only claim left is the DFR claim that seeks an end to "predatory" scope language), then there won't be any decent jobs for you to find. As I've been telling you for years, a victory by Ford and Cooksey will mean the end of all effective scope language ALPA-wide. In other words, there won't be any desirable jobs left. Every single carrier will be free to RFP every single airplane. No longer will RFPs be limited to Barbie-jets and Jungle-jets! No, Skywest and Go Jet will now be bidding on that 76ER flying. Mesa and Republic can race to the bottom of the 777 payscale! Yes, a truly wonderful world that the RJDC envisions for all of us.

P.S. I'm bringing back your favorite avatar, Fins! :beer:

 

[ohplease!]

Oh please--get a life---you know only way to have job sec. is be with Skywest---I vote for ONE LIST, does well for Republic, Freedumb/Mesa*s

how about you blow me? call me baby.....

 

[ASARJMan]

As I've been telling you for years, a victory by Ford and Cooksey will mean the end of all effective scope language ALPAwide. :beer:

Cooksey? Ain't he retired or fired from ASA? Why does he care about the airlines? Some people can't let go I guess and move on with their life.

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL

I see that you have... from my scanner to your banner.

You know my positions and know of my support for more effective scope. Why do you continue to try to portray an effort to make ALPA more representative of its members as an effort to destroy scope? You and I agree on much and it is not necessary to take a section of the complaint out of context to prove your point. With 10 DCI carriers ready to carve up ASA's flying - both of our points have been proven and we both know the needed solutions.

ALPA does have a duty to allow its members to participate in negotiations which involve their pay and working conditions. Nothing is more important to pay and working conditions than scope. When this suit was filed, ASA and Comair were airlines acquired by Delta. All three carriers were in section 6 negotiations. It was the perfect time to engineer an "inclusive scope" (Dan Ford's term) or "brand scope" (ALPA's term).

ALPA had a rare opportunity and squandered it. All we lay members can do is hope that ALPA will take advantage of future opportunities which may exist.

We ALL know that ALPA must deal with alter ego replacements through the use of effective scope. ALPA is our best hope and has my full support - I hope daily that they find their moral compass and return to the inclusive union which worked together to raise our profession.

 

[PCL_128]

Cooksey? Ain't he retired or fired from ASA? Why does he care about the airlines? Some people can't let go I guess and move on with their life.

Not sure of his current employment status, but Ken Cooksey was an ASA Captain when he filed the lawsuit. Everyone refers to the "RJDC lawsuit," but the RJDC doesn't actually have a lawsuit. The RJDC is just the propaganda arm that they created to weasel people out of their money to support their "cause." The actual lawsuits were filed by Ford and Cooksey.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Cooksey? Ain't he retired or fired from ASA? Why does he care about the airlines? Some people can't let go I guess and move on with their life.

Capt. Cooksey retired and now flies corporate when not enjoying his beautiful home in the mountains. Capt. Cooksey was ASA's MEC Chairman and served the pilots at my airline - trying to make this a better place.

He never stopped wanting ASA to improve - to be a good career airline. It might sound silly, but we should want the same for any Professional Pilot.

Ken Cooksey is (if I'm not mistaken) a representational Plaintiff who provides an anchor for the results of the litigation to benefit all similarly situated pilots.

The fact Ken Cooksey stuck his neck out when he was so close to being off the property has a lot to say about the level of service and sacrifice that your officers in ALPA are generally willing to put out for their constituency and Ken was willing to put out specifically.

Nobody that fights for our profession seems to come out clean... don't know why pilots eat their young. But, even the people I disagree with who give up their time and effort to make this a better profession are friends and worthy of gratitude for their work.

 

[PCL_128]

I see that you have... from my scanner to your banner.

With a slight modification, of course.

You know my positions and know of my support for more effective scope.

I know. That's why I continue to be amazed, even after all this time, that you still support this lawsuit. It simply will not accomplish the goals that you have in mind.

Why do you continue to try to portray an effort to make ALPA more representative of its members as an effort to destroy scope? You and I agree on much and it is not necessary to take a section of the complaint out of context to prove your point.

Because, I'm simply not taking it out of context. The claim is written in very clear language. The result of a victory by the plaintiffs would be the destruction of effective scope language. I know that's not what you want, but that's what this lawsuit will bring if they're successful. (I'm not actually worried about this, because I honestly don't think that there's any chance that they'll win)

 

[~~~^~~~]

It simply will not accomplish the goals that you have in mind.

Yep. When this started ASA was Delta Connection in Atlanta and Dallas. Now with 6 other carriers in Atlanta and a non union carrier transferring our jets out from under us - I agree with you - but, they were right to try to stop ALPA from negotiating this outcome - and ALPA did negotiate exactly the storm the ASA and Comair pilots now face.

 

[ASARJMan]

Capt. Cooksey was ASA's MEC Chairman and served the pilots at my airline - trying to make this a better place.
He never stopped wanting ASA to improve - to be a good career airline.

If that's true, why did he signed off on that terrible contract when he was MEC Chair? The ASA pilots didn't have membership ratification at the time, but boy, did we ever vote it in because of the terrible contract he signed off on. He was probally the worst Chair we've ever had, and I've been here for ALL of them.