New Concerns About JetBlue - Article

[ualdriver]

B6 is a LCC... was a start up when the intial low wages were being paid. When we had 20 jets you can't even begin to tell me that we were even considered more than a gnat on DAL's radar... it's your fault to have ignored B6 until it was too late and the market share out of jfk had shifted to B6 over DAL over the same routes. Shame on your leadership for letting that happen. Now, you guys are correct... wages have been lowered but isn't that ALPA's fault and your mec's fault for not standing strong (fraternally yours brother.... something like that, right alpa stooges?) and holding the line. B6 is not the reason why all of your wages came down. It's was due to alpa's ineptitude for not standing strong and holding the line... oh yeah i know... i am furloughed for 5.5 yrs now from nwa and am on bypass b/c i can't afford to go back to a crappy contract and 1st yr pay of 29.55 and hour... and get no credit for any time i've been out. So don't sit behind your computer and credit B6 for the erosion of your benefits. Stare at your face in the mirror and repeat the following.... I let my MEC and Alpa drive down my wages and I did nothing about it.... because that's what happend.
Tail

No, Tail. Guys like you don't "get it." ALPA "holding the line" doesn't work when you have 100's of LCC jets flying for wages that are less than half of ALPA's "going rate" flying around and undercutting you. Any airline that "holds the line" with wages and workrules and pensions only delays the inevitable. The first ALPA airline that "holds the line" eventually dies because its costs can compete with the LCC's when their pilots, for example, are making less than half of what was the going rate. The LCC's with their low wages and crappy work rules would have simply grown into that void left by the first failed ALPA carrier. The LCC's would then grow and start undercutting the next ALPA carrier's market share, until it slowly fails as its costs are massively undercut by LCC wages and workrules. Lather, rinse, repeat until the entire industry is dragged down to B6 (or enter favorite LCC carrier here) pay and work rules.

Shame on ALPA for letting that happen? We ALPA carriers had NO CHOICE but to bring our wages and work rules DOWN to the LCC level or else we would just slowly bleed to death. When my carrier (UAL) was getting dragged through bankruptcy, who's pay and work rules do you think my management slid across the table for us to match? I'll give you a hint: B6, Frontier, Airtran. They took the worst of all three and said "gimme" so we can compete with these guys or the judge will give them to us. It's amazing to me that guys like you can simply wash your hands of what happened in this industry and say, "it wasn't us that dragged down legacy pay rates. It was ALPA ineptitude" Yeah Tail, it was ALPA's fault for "not standing strong." Gee, if we only had "stood strong" we'd all have our pensions. If we only had "stood strong" we'd be making 200 bucks an hour to fly the Airbus instead of making B6 rates. That is absolutely ridiculous and illustrates what little knowledge you have of airline financials and the affect low labor costs can have on subsidizing an airline's bottom line.

Like I said before Tail, if airlines like Skybus, Allegiant, Virgin, etc., succeed in the up and coming years, you're going to see first hand what discount airline labor can do to your airline's wages. Tail, you had better tell your co-workers to "stand strong" now before market share starts to shift. All you have to do is "stand strong" and they won't be able to use their low cost labor to subsidize their profits and undercut you. Stand strong Tail!

 

[race#53]

No, Tail. Guys like you don't "get it."


The French got it,
On 5-13-03, called black Tuesday, a 24 hour strike stopped all planes, buses,
and trains over a 15% reduction in pensions.
Schools, hospitals, and the post office were also affected due to no workers.
80% of international flights were canceled, and even budget airlines EasyJet and Ryanair canceled flights

 

[FDJ2]

No, Tail. Guys like you don't "get it." ALPA "holding the line" doesn't work when you have 100's of LCC jets flying for wages that are less than half of ALPA's "going rate" flying around and undercutting you. Any airline that "holds the line" with wages and workrules and pensions only delays the inevitable. The first ALPA airline that "holds the line" eventually dies because its costs can compete with the LCC's when their pilots, for example, are making less than half of what was the going rate. The LCC's with their low wages and crappy work rules would have simply grown into that void left by the first failed ALPA carrier. The LCC's would then grow and start undercutting the next ALPA carrier's market share, until it slowly fails as its costs are massively undercut by LCC wages and workrules. Lather, rinse, repeat until the entire industry is dragged down to B6 (or enter favorite LCC carrier here) pay and work rules.

Shame on ALPA for letting that happen? We ALPA carriers had NO CHOICE but to bring our wages and work rules DOWN to the LCC level or else we would just slowly bleed to death. When my carrier (UAL) was getting dragged through bankruptcy, who's pay and work rules do you think my management slid across the table for us to match? I'll give you a hint: B6, Frontier, Airtran. They took the worst of all three and said "gimme" so we can compete with these guys or the judge will give them to us. It's amazing to me that guys like you can simply wash your hands of what happened in this industry and say, "it wasn't us that dragged down legacy pay rates. It was ALPA ineptitude" Yeah Tail, it was ALPA's fault for "not standing strong." Gee, if we only had "stood strong" we'd all have our pensions. If we only had "stood strong" we'd be making 200 bucks an hour to fly the Airbus instead of making B6 rates. That is absolutely ridiculous and illustrates what little knowledge you have of airline financials and the affect low labor costs can have on subsidizing an airline's bottom line.

Like I said before Tail, if airlines like Skybus, Allegiant, Virgin, etc., succeed in the up and coming years, you're going to see first hand what discount airline labor can do to your airline's wages. Tail, you had better tell your co-workers to "stand strong" now before market share starts to shift. All you have to do is "stand strong" and they won't be able to use their low cost labor to subsidize their profits and undercut you. Stand strong Tail!

An outstanding post. Thak you.

 

[FDJ2]

No, Tail. Guys like you don't "get it."


The French got it,
On 5-13-03, called black Tuesday, a 24 hour strike stopped all planes, buses,
and trains over a 15% reduction in pensions.
Schools, hospitals, and the post office were also affected due to no workers.
80% of international flights were canceled, and even budget airlines EasyJet and Ryanair canceled flights

Different country, different laws.

 

[enigma]

Different country, different laws.

Right. So let's all donate a days pay to the ALPA PAC so that ALPA can buy time in front of some legislators and work to get the law changed.

I back the PAC.

enigma

 

[tailhookah]

No Ualdriver... you are wrong. I did get "it". Furloughed for over 5.5 years and all i get to go back to is 29.55/hr and probably looking at another furlough in the fall? Yeah, you paid yours and now it's my turn to pay my dues... blah, blah, blah... i've heard it too many times from you alpa hookah smokers. The union did it's job one day but in the last 6 years alpa failed me, you and everyone who's lost their pensions. Because the way it works is that the senior guys sell out the junior guys and there is no fight for all b/c you have to take a stand on some things and let the others go by the wayside. You guys laughed at Frontier in the 90's and all said they would be gone and the great united would take them out... well you f'd up and they have held on. They wanted to furlough after 9/11 but the great relations over there saved all jobs and didn't let anyone get furloughed. Recently at B6 we were losing too many guys to go back to recalls, fedex, ups and swa... over the course of 6 months we were all given big increases in our retirement and ok raises... yeah i'll agree w/ you wages suck here and they suck at ual, nwa, dal etc... hell you guys make less on the 320 than we do... but why do your wide body guys make so much less than before... you going to blame that on b6 as well????? We are only 7 but have shown a trend in the right direction. You made this a pi$$ing match and i've time to type....

You guys have and had the ability to draw the line... stop the madness. We were upset w/ wages and retirement and pushed our management to make it better... your MEC failed you but still took 1.95% of your retirement money away from you. I will agree w/ you that wages suck and we need to push it up.... but a startup is not the reason why you are sucking the fat mans arse in wages... Alpa willingly let the crj's into circulation while beating it's chest about scope clauses that would prevent their growth from affecting the legacies... ooops... where'd all the scope clauses go?????? Hello Alpa????? Why did you mis-represent your members? You (alpa) allowed all the rj's to fester and grow while "protecting the frat"..... b/s... you took everyone's money to pad duanes pockets and looked the other way. How do you guys not see the utter negligence and criminal malpractice that this is?????????? So no Ualdriver... I do and did get "it"... maybe it's you that really doesn't get it! We are pushing hard to get the wages up over here at b6... I know that our scheduling, overtime, pickup and 320 pay are better than yours.... but we know it's far from being right and we will continue to push upwards.... hopefullly w/o ever letting the evil empire of alpa on property.

Rant over.....

Tailhookah OUT!

 

[another cfii]

We could take pages to discuss who's to blame, but the fact of the matter is simple economics: Supply vs. Demand.

All we could argue is the effects of the supply. We dream about the "golden age" in the 80s, early 90s, with $300 bucks 747 captain pay. But there are only a handful of those guys in each carrier that makes that kind of money. Can we achieve that again? Maybe. The point is, do you see 20,000 apps on file for CAL, SWA, FEDEX, UPS when it was in the 80s?? No. And that's why mgmt has the upper hand of dissing us, because they have more supply of pilots than the demand.

Airline Pilots are not once the "professional" career, where only a few chosen can be one. Who's to blame?? nobody. It's just the way our culture evolves. Unless we want to start regulating who can become an airline pilot, i.e. blue eyes, right handed, red head, then maybe we'll have a shot of having mgmt come to terms with our issues.

Just some food for thoughts... Our worst enemy is usually our own.

 

[tailhookah]

What????..... um..... get back on the hookah. When you sober up re-write your post and let us know just what the f'k you're trying to say.

Tail

 

[Indapool]

"The carrier also burned through $65 million in cash and added more than $500 million in new debt. JetBlue has more than $2.9 billion in debt -- more than three times the equity stockholders have in the business."

 

[iluvetops]

I wanted to work at DAL... in fact I was in Plato's special stack and waiting for an interview. NWA, AAL and 9/11 beat Plato to it. So I could be a DAL guy right now. It's a good company but you guys have to stop blamming B6 for your downfall. You were screwed by years of mismanagement and the landscape changing on you. B6 did nothing but start up a company from scratch in a market that was in dire need of lower fares. Now at 7 years old we are paying industry standard wages on the airbus but have a ways to go on the 190... our retirement is better but has a way to go. But we are only 7 and have lots of growing issues to deal with... if you truely believe we didn't pay a dime for our airbuses for the first 5 years then you probably believe Rosie O'D's 9/11 conspiracy theory also... sure when you buy a new airplane a maintenace contract comes w/ it and that's what we get w/ every 320 we buy.... it's called good business. So it's always been in the business plan to get rid of 320's after about 5-6 years if the market is paying well for them and replace some of our older 320's w/ new ones w/ warrenties... good business. We aren't perfect but you guys at DAL did it all to yourselves. You've done some great international expansion but don't beat your chests too soon, because w/ open skies you may be right back in BK within a few years when your international meal ticket expires due to the new agreement.

Tail

Very well said..

That's how SIA do business. They get rid of old airplanes and buy an new ones with warranties. SIA has the youngest fleets of widebody aircrafts in business-profits every year....

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

No Ualdriver... you are wrong. I did get "it". Furloughed for over 5.5 years and all i get to go back to is 29.55/hr and probably looking at another furlough in the fall? Yeah, you paid yours and now it's my turn to pay my dues... blah, blah, blah... i've heard it too many times from you alpa hookah smokers. The union did it's job one day but in the last 6 years alpa failed me, you and everyone who's lost their pensions. Because the way it works is that the senior guys sell out the junior guys and there is no fight for all b/c you have to take a stand on some things and let the others go by the wayside. You guys laughed at Frontier in the 90's and all said they would be gone and the great united would take them out... well you f'd up and they have held on. They wanted to furlough after 9/11 but the great relations over there saved all jobs and didn't let anyone get furloughed. Recently at B6 we were losing too many guys to go back to recalls, fedex, ups and swa... over the course of 6 months we were all given big increases in our retirement and ok raises... yeah i'll agree w/ you wages suck here and they suck at ual, nwa, dal etc... hell you guys make less on the 320 than we do... but why do your wide body guys make so much less than before... you going to blame that on b6 as well????? We are only 7 but have shown a trend in the right direction. You made this a pi$$ing match and i've time to type....

You guys have and had the ability to draw the line... stop the madness. We were upset w/ wages and retirement and pushed our management to make it better... your MEC failed you but still took 1.95% of your retirement money away from you. I will agree w/ you that wages suck and we need to push it up.... but a startup is not the reason why you are sucking the fat mans arse in wages... Alpa willingly let the crj's into circulation while beating it's chest about scope clauses that would prevent their growth from affecting the legacies... ooops... where'd all the scope clauses go?????? Hello Alpa????? Why did you mis-represent your members? You (alpa) allowed all the rj's to fester and grow while "protecting the frat"..... b/s... you took everyone's money to pad duanes pockets and looked the other way. How do you guys not see the utter negligence and criminal malpractice that this is?????????? So no Ualdriver... I do and did get "it"... maybe it's you that really doesn't get it! We are pushing hard to get the wages up over here at b6... I know that our scheduling, overtime, pickup and 320 pay are better than yours.... but we know it's far from being right and we will continue to push upwards.... hopefullly w/o ever letting the evil empire of alpa on property.

Rant over.....

Tailhookah OUT!

Just a little curious Tail....

I suppose B6 gets no special deal then....is that what I'm hearing??

Maybe those upstate NY subsidies and Richmond, VA (among other cities)gate incentives and all of the next-to-free space granted in MCO for your cute campus and TV Land hangar or non-inflation adjusted bond ratings for the NY terminal were just a part of doing business huh??? (not even going to touch on the Airbuses)

Before you point the finger at my airline about fairness and shedding debt in a LEGAL courtroom, stand tall and hike up your skirt and take a good look around you.....you WERE the darlings of the industry and now you are just like any other airline........ And if a big airline tries to put the screws to ya, you can always run to the hill and call it "anti-competitive" to your junior Senator from New York.........

You seem to be pretty defensive which points to either your fear of competition, or the fact that you are ignorant of the industry......I want to believe the first reason, but every time you post, you solidify the second.

 

[FDJ2]

Right. So let's all donate a days pay to the ALPA PAC so that ALPA can buy time in front of some legislators and work to get the law changed.

I back the PAC.

enigma

I'd just be happy if each ALPA pilot gave up a Starbucks latte each week and gave that money to ALPA-PAC so we can have a voice in Congress.

There seem to be plenty of complaints about how the bankruptcy laws favor management to the dtriment of labor, how our right to strike after contract rejection has been taken away and how contract negotiations can drag on for years with no release for self help, but only 14% of us care enough to cough up a couple of bucks a week to try and have a say in any of these laws.

 

[FDJ2]

You seem to be pretty defensive which points to either your fear of competition, or the fact that you are ignorant of the industry......I want to believe the first reason, but every time you post, you solidify the second.

Consider the possibilty that both reasons are in play.

 

[tailhookah]

My skirt is always hiked up enough so my hairy balls are showing.... just the way you like it.

I am scared of competition... if you aren't then you are sticking your head in the sand. Sure B6 gets special deals. Are you that ignorant to think your airline, whoever that is doesn't get special deals?????? NWA doesn't get special deals in MEM, Detroit or Mini.... DAL doesn't get special deals in Atlanta, Salt Lake or CVG?????? UAL doesn't get special deals in Denver, ORD or IAD?????? AAL doesn't get special deals in DFW?????? Hey master of the obvious.... wake up. All airlines get special deals. And if your airline is not getting special deals somewhere then your mangement sucks! It's part of bargaining good business deals. Whatever your mangagement can swing is call an advantage over competition. Should we go back to socialism in a non capatilistic society and make it even for all??? Then trade in your nice house, give half your pay to a poor person and move into a double wide jacka$$.

I sure hope to think we have a special deal w/ airbus.... since we are the largest operator of A320's in the entire world. I hope we have a special deal w/ embraer since we are the worldwide launch customer for the E190 and have to deal w/ all of the growing and teething issues.

I know we have a special deal w/ jfk... we are the largest operator here and revitalized a dieing airport. I hope we have a great deal in BOS... we took over gates that DAL abandoned and made them very lucrative...

Get my point? You are so ignorant to get mad at our "special deals" and think your company doesn't do or would jump at the same issues.... maybe your team sucks and you need a change. I don't care. I back my management and believe and trust in them and don't have to pay a 1.95% premium to have bad labor relations.... hopefully I never will again. It didn't work at NWA for me and god help me if I ever have to go back to Detroilet ever again.... (having been born and raised in MI i can say that........ don't try to Imus me on that comment).....


Tail

 

[ualdriver]

No Ualdriver... you are wrong. I did get "it". Furloughed for over 5.5 years and all i get to go back to is 29.55/hr and probably looking at another furlough in the fall?

OK, I understand now. You were furloughed by a legacy because it had to accept LCC work rules in order to survive, and because it had to take those crappy work rules it needed less pilots. So therefore it had to furlough or pay the wages of those pilots no longer needed or bleed to death until eveyone lost their job. And, of course, that's ALPA's fault. Got it. ALPA should have magically added 100's of millions to your company's bottom line in order to save your job!


Yeah, you paid yours and now it's my turn to pay my dues... blah, blah, blah... i've heard it too many times from you alpa hookah smokers. The union did it's job one day but in the last 6 years alpa failed me, you and everyone who's lost their pensions.

Tail, our LCC competitors don't have pensions and used that advantage to undercut my airline and make a profit at our expense. Pensions are extremely expensive and in order to compete they had to be shed or frozen. Again, was that ALPA's fault? Should ALPA made 100's of millions of dollars magically appear to save my pension?


Because the way it works is that the senior guys sell out the junior guys and there is no fight for all b/c you have to take a stand on some things and let the others go by the wayside. You guys laughed at Frontier in the 90's and all said they would be gone and the great united would take them out... well you f'd up and they have held on.

So the senior guys should have been furloughed instead? How did "we guys" screw up with Frontier? They used low wages and work rules to undercut us. Is this where we should have "stood strong" and our LCC problems would have gone away?


They wanted to furlough after 9/11 but the great relations over there saved all jobs and didn't let anyone get furloughed.

That's funny. "Great relations" saves people from being furloughed. Maybe they didn't have to furlough because they were one of the LCC's that helped lower the bar in the first place? You don't have to take pay and workrule cuts and furloughs when you already are at the new low standard we all came down to.


Recently at B6 we were losing too many guys to go back to recalls, fedex, ups and swa... over the course of 6 months we were all given big increases in our retirement and ok raises... yeah i'll agree w/ you wages suck here and they suck at ual, nwa, dal etc...

Yeah big raises and you guys are basically flying a 737 around for RJ wages. Thanks for that, and for setting those E190 rates nice and low so that US Air and DAL had somewhere to "aim" for.

hell you guys make less on the 320 than we do... but why do your wide body guys make so much less than before... you going to blame that on b6 as well?????

Well, despite your assertion that the senior guys sell the junior guys out, I guess they decided to share in the pain of work rule and pay cuts so our narrowbody guys didn't take the brunt of it. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. There was that loaded gun at our head, too, with Tilton at the trigger. And remember, I don't just blame B6 for everything, but they were/are certainly part of the problem.


You guys have and had the ability to draw the line... stop the madness. We were upset w/ wages and retirement and pushed our management to make it better...

Oh that's funny! Do you really think that any action by a Jetblue pilot had anything to do with the raise you got, besides just quitting? What did you guys do, write a strongly worded letter to your CEO? You guys have done nothing to raise the bar for the industry or yourselves. E190 rates, transcon turns, etc., believe it or not, don't help any of us or raise the bar. Neeleman throws you guys a small bone and suddenly you're fighters? Right. Talk to me when the 737 you're flying around pays 737 rates and when you have a pension. Remember, if you guys stand strong you can stop the madness over there.

your MEC failed you but still took 1.95% of your retirement money away from you. I will agree w/ you that wages suck and we need to push it up.... but a startup is not the reason why you are sucking the fat mans arse in wages...

My MEC did not fail me. My MEC cannot overcome market forces. The LCC's aren't start ups anymore, nor were they when we entered CH11.


Alpa willingly let the crj's into circulation while beating it's chest about scope clauses that would prevent their growth from affecting the legacies

I'll give you that. That's why I say LCC's like B6 are part of the problem. A bigger part in my opinion.


So no Ualdriver... I do and did get "it"... maybe it's you that really doesn't get it! We are pushing hard to get the wages up over here at b6...

Actually, you're doing nothing over at B6 to get any type of wage. You guys choose to be powerless and you are. Your pay and work rules are at the mercy of Neeleman and market forces. To say otherwise about B6 pilots is wishful thinking. A strongly worded letter from that little employee committee of yours does not constitute leverage.

I know that our scheduling, overtime, pickup and 320 pay are better than yours.... but we know it's far from being right and we will continue to push upwards.... hopefullly w/o ever letting the evil empire of alpa on property.

Actually you guys will not continue to push anything. You don't have a collective voice nor a view of the future. For example, here you are fiddling about pay and work rules. Rome could be burning in two years if cabotage comes into play under the new EU-US deal taking place right now making ANYONE'S industry leading wages (or lack thereof) impossible to maintain. Tell me tail ALPA hater.....what are Jetblue pilots doing about the SINGLE GREATEST THREAT FACING THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY TODAY? What's that? Nothing? When you guys have a better solution to defending the profession, I'll listen and even advocate change. Until then, I'll take ALPA, warts and mistakes and all. You can run around blaming ALPA for your furlough, and pretending as if any B6 pilot has one iota of influence over anything important while taking pot shots from the cheap seats, OK? I'll continue to volunteer for my union and contribute to ALPA PAC and KNOW I'm doing something for the future of my profession.

And by the way Tail, I do feel bad that you were furloughed even though I think you are seriously misguided. And I also realize "feeling bad" doesn't put food on the table or take 5 years of your career back. It just wasn't ALPA's fault that you were furloughed. They were just the union at the table when the market forces that came into play took your job.

 

[Lake Alice]

ualdriver,

For all your eloquence you are simply a moron. Anyone who will blame one airline or one group for all the industries woes is simply senile. Regionals are not to blame, exhorbetant CEO salaries are not to blame, unions are not to blame, fuel is not to blame, excessive salaries for ramp workers, fuelers, flight attendants are not to blame? For those without any common sense your post could sound legitamate but for those who have been around a while and who have the ability to think for themselves it is obvious you are just repeating what others are saying without any clear understanding of economics and the industry.

 

[ualdriver]

ualdriver,

For all your eloquence you are simply a moron. Anyone who will blame one airline or one group for all the industries woes is simply senile. Regionals are not to blame, exhorbetant CEO salaries are not to blame, unions are not to blame, fuel is not to blame, excessive salaries for ramp workers, fuelers, flight attendants are not to blame? For those without any common sense your post could sound legitamate but for those who have been around a while and who have the ability to think for themselves it is obvious you are just repeating what others are saying without any clear understanding of economics and the industry.

Reread the following sentence from my post just above yours. I'll even cut and paste it here for you:

I'll give you that. That's why I say LCC's like B6 are part of the problem. A bigger part in my opinion.

Perhaps you misread when I wrote "part of the problem?" Maybe being a moron allows me to read and understand sentences better than you?

And sorry, they are all my ideas. I admit to being an ALPA supporter but I don't agree with everythng they do. Further, it is my understanding of airline finance 101 that allows me to believe what I write.

 

[tailhookah]

Keep your head in the sand and that old airline finance 101 book by the crapper... if you don't adapt you become yesterday's news and success. You are probably one of those guys who thinks we don't need to outsource, but still be competitve in the world economy.... just why you do think the dollar has plumeted over the last few years against all but fixed currencies? The unwillingness of americans to adjust and adapt to the world economy.... the same is happening in the airline industry. I don't like it anymore than you but I accept that it's happening and will embrace it. Keep your head in the sand ostrich man and let the world pass you by...

Tail

ps-I would love to go back to the days of making 185/hr w/ 65 hour guarantees... it's gone and not coming back anytime soon. But the good news and one that will help all of us out is the lack of pilots... hopefully we don't go into a recession and that all resets... b/c a pilot shortage is the only way we are going to get our wages to move up... just like what happened to b6 recently. Our raises came about by guys leaving.... not by alpa "taking it back". We are a commodity. We get short, then we get paid more. Too many pilots... lower wages. If you think you and me are anything more than a pork belly to managements eye then you are sorely mistaken.

 

[ualdriver]

What are the non-ALPA carriers doing about this extremely serious issue? Will you still bash ALPA if they are successful in preventing some guy from a third world country from flying your airplane for 500 US dollars a month and a goat? Tail, what kind of steps are your pilot group taking to protect your career from this direct assault on our profession?


ALPA Monitors US/EU Air Transport Agreement

The governments of the United States and the European Community will sign a new air transport agreement on Monday, April 30. While the pact continues to generate serious concern about foreign control of U.S. airlines, ALPA was able to fight off attempts to put radical policy changes in place.

Over months of negotiations, ALPA’s delegation had language included in the agreement prohibiting foreign cabotage, the ability of a foreign carrier to transport passengers from point to point within the United States. Through ALPA’s efforts, the language explicitly states that only European carriers have rights under the agreement and directs the joint committee set up to review the implementation of the agreement to evaluate its effect on airline workers.

The agreement, which will go into effect on March 1, 2008, is based on the basic “open skies” model that the United States seeks with all of its negotiating partners. It does, however, contain several unique provisions. Among these are that the airlines of the 27 member states of the European Community will be able to fly from any point in Europe to any point in the United States.

While there has been no change in the U.S. laws governing foreign control of U.S. air carriers, the United States has indicated that it will be flexible when reviewing European investments in, or franchising arrangements with, U.S. airlines. ALPA has concerns about how the ownership and franchising provisions will be applied and is pressing Congress to ensure that their application is in accordance with the letter and spirit of the law that expressly prohibits foreign control of U.S. airlines. ALPA is also asking Congress to inquire into the U.S. government’s plans for the second stage of the negotiations. These next negotiations will be critical, as the European Community has indicated that it will once again seek to change the U.S. rules on ownership and control and on cabotage.

ALPA will participate in the Joint Committee that will be established to monitor the implementation of the new agreement, and in the next round of negotiations, which is scheduled to commence in mid-2008. The union’s delegation will remain vigilant in tracking how this new agreement is implemented, and ALPA will continue to work with Congress to ensure that the agreement does not violate current law.

 

[Splert]

Our raises came about by guys leaving...

That is all we need to know about jetblue. It's a benefit that guys leave...

Also the raise we got was really about moving 1 step back each year over the past 5-years and then moving 1/16 step forward.

- 5 + 1/16 = - 4 15/16 behind.

But that is a raise to BlueJuicers.

Some people are so emotional about issues that all logic is suspended or the belief is so strong that we are different that all logic is suspended.

I think it's both and that is a career damaging combination.

 

[Lake Alice]

Jetblue is part of the problem and I openly concede this fact. What sticks in my craw is egomaniac, on their high horse legacy guys like UAL who will/are quick to fault one airline or one group when the problem is much more systemic and larger. Every start up has been a problem and by your retirement standars SWA is still part of the problem. From a straight pay model they help you out. Now please refresh my memory, was any LCC repsonsible for you losing your pension? Although I am extremely sorry that you lost your pension, which ultimately affects all of us, I know the LCC's were not at fault.
Since 9-11 your inept union leadership and management have been reaching to place the blame on anyone but yourselves. Back to my sytemc comment. In our culture today we are taught to blame everyone else but ourselves, what happened to some accountability. Your out of control structure was your demise, not an LCC. What happened to every legacy carrier was already going to happen, 9-11 or not. Could an LCC have expidited things, maybe and thats a reaching maybe, but you made your bed and now you don't want to lie in it.
Again, watch who you blame, educate your self and look in the mirror. Jetblue is a problem and we all know that but our structure had nothing to do with your meltdown.

 

[tailhookah]

If you alpa guys were serious and not hypocrites then the alpa pac contributions would be much higher than 14% participation. So don't throw stones at glass houses. Get your own participation up to a more respectable level before you slam me or "the juicers" about not supporting alpa....

Tail

 

[elag777]

Tail 1 Ualdriver 0

 

[737 Pylt]

If you alpa guys were serious and not hypocrites then the alpa pac contributions would be much higher than 14% participation. So don't throw stones at glass houses. Get your own participation up to a more respectable level before you slam me or "the juicers" about not supporting alpa....

Tail

Tail:
I'm sure its so low because most ALPA members are not as informed. I'll bet anything that most of that 14% comes from the majors/legacy airlines rather than from the commuter/regional ranks!
You still haven't answered the question....
What are the bills that DL is not paying?
I'm curious?
737

 

[Splert]

If you alpa guys were serious and not hypocrites then the alpa pac contributions would be much higher than 14% participation. So don't throw stones at glass houses. Get your own participation up to a more respectable level before you slam me or "the juicers" about not supporting alpa....

You are the kind of chick that bums a ride using CASS and then have the ovaries to say: "thanks for the ride" and then later raise your middle finger at ALPA.


Without ALPA and CASS jetBlue would NOT have a chance to operate. After all 95% of us commute to JFK.


I'm sure the PVC would in the next 5 years wold have the political power and experience to advocate and spearhead the implementation of CASS - NOT!


Thanks ALPA – it’s no wonder NWA is so pissed at allowing us to ride the CASS enabled jumpseat. Wasn’t it their guys that worked the hardest to secure CASS?

 

[clickclickboom]

Tailhooker you are spot on my man..

Lets face it even a secretaries assistant in the Alpa office makes $165,000 a year.. They sit around that round table and laugh their asses off about all these dumbass spineless pilots that pay their 1.95% and then let their balls recede like a scared turtle when the sh-it hits the fan..

The best part is the multi million dollar bonuses that mgmt took after the cuts.. What a joke.


UALDRIVER: Isnt it the arrival into boston that gives special speed requirements for the L188 and GII??

 

[tailhookah]

737 Pylt wrote:

Tail:
I'm sure its so low because most ALPA members are not as informed. I'll bet anything that most of that 14% comes from the majors/legacy airlines rather than from the commuter/regional ranks!
You still haven't answered the question....
What are the bills that DL is not paying?
I'm curious?
737

Who cares where the 14% comes from! My point is that a lot of guys talk about how great alpa is and what they do for the cause yet facts and statistics show otherwise... 14% participation in 2006 for Alpa Pac... down 16% from 1983 levels when alpa pac was formed. Yet you probably didn't have those facts b/c your head is burried in the sand next to ualdriver's. As far as bk is concerned... go and call the people who lost their jobs, businesses and retirements over the bk courts "allowing" dal to cut BILLIONS in debt... it's money, bills and commitments that was reneged on by DAL to screw others, including yourself. You have to go no further than to look at your reflection in your soup spoon. So no, I don't have specific bills to show you jacka$$... yet if you have to ask again what bills then you just let us all know how ignorant you really are....

Tail

ps-the major alpa carriers represent much more than 14% of the total alpa pilot population... don't ya think there guy? Why don't you guys worry about fixing alpa and getting your own members to pull in the same direction instead of wasting your breath on pointing your fingers and blaming jetblue for your worries.... you alpa guys are like the us prior to ww2.... very xenophobic. Blame what you don't understand by pointing fingers and accusing others for your downfall is a natural trait for the uninformed.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

You are the kind of chick that bums a ride using CASS and then have the ovaries to say: "thanks for the ride" and then later raise your middle finger at ALPA.


Without ALPA and CASS jetBlue would NOT have a chance to operate. After all 95% of us commute to JFK.


I'm sure the PVC would in the next 5 years wold have the political power and experience to advocate and spearhead the implementation of CASS - NOT!


Thanks ALPA – it’s no wonder NWA is so pissed at allowing us to ride the CASS enabled jumpseat. Wasn’t it their guys that worked the hardest to secure CASS?

CASS is only for the cockpit jumpseat, genius.

 

[tailhookah]

JetBlue was the pioneer for the unlimited jumpseats for pilots and flight attendants... alpa did $hit for that. So the next time you get a seat on ual, dal, aal when the cockpit is full then thank your friendly B6 pilot.

Tail

 

[Splert]

CASS is only for the cockpit jumpseat, genius.

So when it's the only way to get home or to work you will say thanks for ride and then later flip your finger at ALPA. Or are you saying that you will wait for the next flight or the next day to commute home or to work - sure.

I'm sure your disgust for ALPA only goes so far. You act like a little girl and shut up and accept the ride in the CASS jumpseat and only when you are out of sight do you bravely flip your middle finger at ALPA.

Character is not one of the 5-values.