PNCL MEC Chairman resigns..

[saabservant]

He's right, first we shoot the lawyers. A risk-averse legal department that fears for it's own jobs is handcuffing us. They believe that we only need to "entice" management into being reasonable. B.S. Mgmt. only sees this approach as weakness...

My PAC contribution is generous, and checked off my pay each period...

 

[Lear70]

I talked to someone today who said he might be going to Airtran.

Untrue.

His name has not popped up on the interview list the entire last year and change I've been here.

Yeah, I've been on the lookout for it.

Incidentally, Section 6 negotiations at PCL have been going on a lot longer than 2 years... or do you not recall the early openers on both sides?

You've got to realize that the company has no intent to negotiate honorably. They tried the strongarm approach more than once, and you guys have done a great job not to cow to any of the threats of loss of aircraft, etc.

Now, however, it's time for a different approach at PCL.

"There is a time for diplomacy, and a time for action. Diplomacy is dead".

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What a cop out. You lambast me for pointing out the obvious (which really wasn't so obvious), then you agree with me, then shrug there's nothing we can do, then ask what MY solution is?

I never said there is nothing we can do.... Actually I am the opposite..

You're the ALPA rep, what are YOU going to do about it? You've got the votes, sport! Quit being a lap dog, and preaching the party line. Start by thinking creatively, independently. You will never fix ALPA, but if you understand the system, you can use it to your advantage. The more pilots who find out what really happens up in that converted warehouse in Herndon, the more pressure there will be to change.

First I am not elected... Second I welcome what you just said. The more pilots... yes more pilots... MORE MORE! Bring em all to herndon get them educated and let's fix it!!

I am indifferent to J. Johnson. There is always someone better.. and I've had staffers tell me how I was going to protect my career. I was offended...

So let's fix it.. but if we do it will take more pilots becomming active..

In the meantime, fight for what your pilots need and don't let National control your thoughts or your words. Don't believe everything they told you in Leadership School! Jalmer and Skiados wrote the curriculum!

Leadership school sucked when I went to it.. I hear its getting better...

When I was a status rep I communicated with my membership that I was going to the BOD. I asked them to tell me what what concerns and issues they had. so I could take them to the BOD.. this is how many replied.... zero.

How is the leadership supposed to lead with silent, apathetic members...

 

[PCL_128]

Freight dog, Rez and PCL_128 are both sitting ALPA reps. What do you expect them to say?

Are you implying that I'm lying to make ALPA look good? Sorry, but I don't lie to the membership. Period.

Right now, ALPA national is being run by the staff (lawyers in particular), not the pilots.

That a bunch of BS, John, and you should know better. This MEC certainly doesn't allow a bunch of staffers to direct us, and I seriously doubt that Newie, Danny, Nick, et al. are allowing staffers to direct your MEC either. Staffers can certainly give some very pointed advice, but it's ultimately our decision to make.

The first problem is a legal department that is scared of its own shadow.

On this, we can agree. I'm all for CYA, but some of the guys in legal have gone a little too far with it. You just have to know when to brush them off and do what you think is best. Again, we don't allow the lawyers to run the show. They are simply advisors.

During Woerth's whole second term, Jalmer was the one who stood up to the MECs and the officers. When you control the purse strings, you control the situation.

Again, BS. I know of several situations where different MECs have told the lawyers and other staffers at National (including JJ) that they were not going to follow their advice. What repercussions came from this from National? Absolutely none!!!!!! The allegations of control via funding from you and Johnny B. are ridiculous. You've dreamed up these threats in your own mind.

He's also responsible for causing the staffers to strike last year. Yeah, how embarassing that a union was struck by another union!

Jalmer was in a tough position there. The staffers deserved good pay and benefits, but the pilots had just taken massive concessions and we've watched the OCF balance drop year after year. The situation resolved itself well, and the staffers were treated with dignity and respect both during and after the strike. A stark contrast compared to how airline managements treat their employees.

 

[PCL_128]

Incidentally, Section 6 negotiations at PCL have been going on a lot longer than 2 years... or do you not recall the early openers on both sides?

Early openers aren't considered part of Section 6. Section 6 begins when official notice is sent by one party to the other. We served the company with Section 6 notice back in February of '05 if I remember correctly. So, just over two years. Typically, Section 6 is capable of being opened six months before the amendable date, but some agreements have provisions for opening it earlier.

Now, however, it's time for a different approach at PCL.

"There is a time for diplomacy, and a time for action. Diplomacy is dead".

SPC is ramping up. Look for some more overt public actions soon. All legal, of course.

 

[Lear70]

Oh I wasn't advocating anything illegal, but I certainly agree with others that operating to the EXACT LETTER OF THE LAW when it comes to contract, FAR, FOM, and FCOM guidance would certainly put a kibosh on their enthusiasm down on Noncaring Blvd.

Some of the afore-mentioned activities such as informing the company you've already cracked a beer when called for a J.A., being fatigued if you're met at the gate to be extended (who knows how much sleep you had the night before), writing the airplane up for every, single inop item, even if it's 1 of the 2 bulbs behind the RAM AIR switch when you do an annunciator light test before flight, taking the time to do a proper, thorough pre-flight when flight planned for a 20 minute turn in the hub with an aircraft swap, not to mention stopping and getting some food to properly address your nutritional needs thereby combatting that fatigue issue we were talking about...

I guarantee if you if the delays and cancellations start doubling and tripling suddenly, senior management WILL take notice. Don't you remember two years ago when sick calls went up by 50% in one month due to non-commutable schedules and a reduction in days off from 15 to 11 on average?

If you're too fatigued to go back to work after 1 day off in between 5 days trips, hey, that's a health issue and you SHOULD call in sick.

And it's all completely legal.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Are you implying that I'm lying to make ALPA look good? Sorry, but I don't lie to the membership. Period.



That a bunch of BS, John, and you should know better. This MEC certainly doesn't allow a bunch of staffers to direct us, and I seriously doubt that Newie, Danny, Nick, et al. are allowing staffers to direct your MEC either. Staffers can certainly give some very pointed advice, but it's ultimately our decision to make.



On this, we can agree. I'm all for CYA, but some of the guys in legal have gone a little too far with it. You just have to know when to brush them off and do what you think is best. Again, we don't allow the lawyers to run the show. They are simply advisors.



Again, BS. I know of several situations where different MECs have told the lawyers and other staffers at National (including JJ) that they were not going to follow their advice. What repercussions came from this from National? Absolutely none!!!!!! The allegations of control via funding from you and Johnny B. are ridiculous. You've dreamed up these threats in your own mind.



Jalmer was in a tough position there. The staffers deserved good pay and benefits, but the pilots had just taken massive concessions and we've watched the OCF balance drop year after year. The situation resolved itself well, and the staffers were treated with dignity and respect both during and after the strike. A stark contrast compared to how airline managements treat their employees.

I'm not accusing you of lying, PCL, I'm saying you're thinking inside the box. This is the same reason you think my allegations are BS. They are not BS.

Yes, many MEC chairmen have stood up to Jalmer (Bob Arnold comes to mind) but Bob ran a tight budget and didn't rely on National very much.

Educate us on why Comair had to asess its members if you still suggest there have never been reprocussions for such.

As for the staff running the union, I don't see how you can't agree. Who re-writes every interview with a Pro-Alpa-flag-waving spin? Staff. Who approves the budgets? Staff (Beebe?... please). Who controls the legal department and sets legal strategy? Staff. As I said, the staff (which includes legal) have even toned down Prater's rhetoric, compared to when he started.

Put down the kool-aid and look outside the box. Being a good ALPA rep doesn't mean you have to sell ALPA to your pilots. It means you have to use National to your advantage, take what it gives you and throw out the rest of the junk they send you... kiind of like the junk mail that comes in credit card bills.

 

[i fly boxes]

Enough of this legal stuff, someone needs to go in there and tell phil and his boys that either their brains or their signatures are going to be on our contract proposal and that they have a choice.

Just negotiate like the godfather

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Put down the kool-aid and look outside the box. Being a good ALPA rep doesn't mean you have to sell ALPA to your pilots. It means you have to use National to your advantage, take what it gives you and throw out the rest of the junk they send you... kiind of like the junk mail that comes in credit card bills.

It is a two way street. ALPA reps shouldn't have to convince their members to attend meetings, be informed and particpate....

If you are going to point know that three fingers are pointing back.

The only way for ALPA to be more like you want it... is to get involved. Not just you but a majority of the membership... only then can you effect outside of the box thinking....

 

[John Pennekamp]

It is a two way street. ALPA reps shouldn't have to convince their members to attend meetings, be informed and particpate....

If you are going to point know that three fingers are pointing back.

The only way for ALPA to be more like you want it... is to get involved. Not just you but a majority of the membership... only then can you effect outside of the box thinking....

You're preaching to the choir, pal.

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, many MEC chairmen have stood up to Jalmer (Bob Arnold comes to mind) but Bob ran a tight budget and didn't rely on National very much.

Educate us on why Comair had to asses its members if you still suggest there have never been reprocussions for such.

There are certainly repercussions to MECs who refuse to be responsible with their funds. When ALPA provides grants to MECs, ALPA expects the money not to be wasted. That's not just the staff, that's Captain Beebe also. I believe a frequent poster on this board, Occam, was on the SOB that dealt with CMR at the time you're referring to. Maybe he can provide more info to you on why CMR needed to assess its members.

As for the staff running the union, I don't see how you can't agree. Who re-writes every interview with a Pro-Alpa-flag-waving spin? Staff.

Whenever the staff edits an interview or article, the final approval comes back to the pilot that was involved. If you don't like their edits, then tell them to change it back before it is published. Personally, I've never had a problem with the edits they've done on my material, as they usual have good suggestions. Many of the staffers have worked for ALPA for decades. They're a very valuable resource and their suggestions are usually spot-on.

Who approves the budgets? Staff (Beebe?... please).

The final responsibility goes to Captain Beebe. Does he delegate a lot of the work? I'm sure he does. I don't expect one man to review and approve the budgets of 40 individual MECs while also dealing with committees, the AFL-CIO, MCF grants, and on and on. However, if you have an issue with a budget, Captain Beebe is more than happy to work with you to resolve it. He's one of the most accessible ALPA reps around.

Who controls the legal department and sets legal strategy? Staff.

I'm not a lawyer, and neither are you. You can't possibly believe that you are better qualified to determine legal strategy. It's our job to set the goals, and we have attorneys to assist us with developing legal strategy to achieve those goals. The idea that a bunch of guys who fly planes for a living should be developing legal strategy is absurd.

As I said, the staff (which includes legal) have even toned down Prater's rhetoric, compared to when he started.

Did you really expect Captain Prater's rhetoric to remain unchanged after getting elected? It's a lot easier to make bold claims and promises when you're just running for office. It's a lot different when you're actually sitting in the office and you have the responsibility of 66,000 pilots and their families on your mind. Rhetoric may win elections, but it doesn't always produce results.

 

[Lear70]

It is a two way street. ALPA reps shouldn't have to convince their members to attend meetings, be informed and particpate....

This DOES irritate me.

I've started a grassroots movement here at AirTran to get some guys together to go up to D.C. next month.

2 BOD members, one of our staff members, and myself are going so far.

NONE of the membership can be bothered.

If you are going to point know that three fingers are pointing back.

Oh God, tell me you didn't just go there.

The only way for ALPA to be more like you want it... is to get involved. Not just you but a majority of the membership... only then can you effect outside of the box thinking....

The problem is getting your membership engaged. I've tried at two carriers now over the last 7 years and haven't found a good way to accomplish that.

Sometimes I think the very people who complain about laziness from younger ground workers and such are the very people who are too lazy to get off their a*s and participate in their own careers.

p.s. This isn't pointed at you John P, just making an overall observation about the 80% of pilots who can't be bothered to show up to any events. You get a decent voter turnout, but that just takes a few minutes on the computer. No one really wants to do any real work or take any of their precious off time to do anything.

p.s.s. Rumor mill has it at Corporate that Wake will be very shortly assuming the Chief Pilot position. He has vehemently denied it, but you heard it here first.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This DOES irritate me.

I've started a grassroots movement here at AirTran to get some guys together to go up to D.C. next month.

2 BOD members, one of our staff members, and myself are going so far.

NONE of the membership can be bothered.

And this is it... how can we be more effective if the avg member is apathetic. If the leadership says..'no one cares so I'll do what I want or what I feel is in the best interests' then sooner or later some member is going to be pissed off.

Communication is the key to any relationship.

So what is a leader supposed to do.. he gets no particaption from the membership and when s/he feels he is doing what is in the best interests of his silent membership, the membership cries foul, corruption, expensive dinners, and on and on...

How can we be effective this way...

Oh God, tell me you didn't just go there.

Corney I know... but c'mon...

The problem is getting your membership engaged. I've tried at two carriers now over the last 7 years and haven't found a good way to accomplish that.

neither has ALPA and they've been around for 76 years....

Now we are getting to the real problem here.... this is the foundation... it is weak. How can buld the frame on a weak foundation...

Sometimes I think the very people who complain about laziness from younger ground workers and such are the very people who are too lazy to get off their a*s and participate in their own careers.

Better to be a player in ones career than a spectator...

Simply put the avg air line pilot's apathy translates to letting someone else make decisions in the direction of ones career.. whenther is a union member, managment or gov't.

p.s. This isn't pointed at you John P, just making an overall observation about the 80% of pilots who can't be bothered to show up to any events. You get a decent voter turnout, but that just takes a few minutes on the computer. No one really wants to do any real work or take any of their precious off time to do anything.

but yet they DEMAND results from volunteer pilots. One of the many problems is unions don't set the stage right during new hire briefings.. They buy pizza and tell new hires that unions serve you... well when you only have 30-60 mins to sell the organization it is difficult to say "we will give you the tools but you got to build your career"

p.s.s. Rumor mill has it at Corporate that Wake will be very shortly assuming the Chief Pilot position. He has vehemently denied it, but you heard it here first.

all righty then.......

 

[Freight Dog]

Has anyone polled the membership as to why there are such weak turnouts at the union meetings?

I heard grumblings as to why, but nothing official...

Perhaps that'd be a start...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Has anyone polled the membership as to why there are such weak turnouts at the union meetings?

I heard grumblings as to why, but nothing official...

Perhaps that'd be a start...

Yes... The EB had a committee; the SRSRC. Its job was, inpart, to determine how to get more members to come to LEC meetings.. Electronic technology was explored.

It is the same with other volunteer organizations.. like Civic Leagues or Home Owners Associations...

For example..and this isn't unique to my neighborhood. A relative, calm normal middle-middle class 'hood. A boy was shot and killed on a street corner. Next civic meeting was packed..standing room only. Whereas normally it is the same two parents showing up and the rest is the Board.

Same with Parent Teacher Associations... nobody cares until there is blood or money lost....

We live in a society and culture where giving time without real substantial gratification and immediate returns is wasting time....

The problem is...showing up at the civic league meeting after the boy was dead was way too late. What if everyone showed up before the meeting and addressed the issues so that type of scenario is limited...


The same thing is going to happen with Open Skies. In 3 years we are going to get hammered. Our careers are going to be so far gone and the meeting hall will be packed. And a member will cry out... What can we do! We'll do anything! Just tell us...

And the reply will be... give to PAC, go to LEC meetings, VOTE, show up at rallys (like May 17th)...just be active participants in your career...

oh...and go back in time... 5 years ago....when we should've started....

• Is it really a hassle to give $5/month to ALPA PAC?
• Is it really as hassle to go to a quarterly meeting for three hours?
• Is it really a hassle to take 2m to vote?
• Is it really a hassle to volunteer five hours a month to a committee?
• Is it really a hassle to know your contract?
• A hassle to read emails?
• To challenge your leadership to be better (with informed data)...

And in return you get a fighting chance to protect your career. It is better than being a tumbleweed...???

 

[DoinTime]

Has anyone polled the membership as to why there are such weak turnouts at the union meetings?

Your are expecting people that are not motivated enough to go to meetings to some how gather the gumption to participate in a poll? Thats like asking a blind man what cow looks like. Thats just stupid.

 

[Lear70]

We live in a society and culture where giving time without real substantial gratification and immediate returns is wasting time....

Ayuh... that would be about right.

The same thing is going to happen with Open Skies. In 3 years we are going to get hammered. Our careers are going to be so far gone and the meeting hall will be packed. And a member will cry out... What can we do! We'll do anything! Just tell us...

It won't REALLY be a problem until about 7-10 years from now, when all the European Ryan-esque carriers start flooding our market with new, ultra-cheap flights, our carriers start bleeding money, and come to us for concessions at the next negotiating sessions, if not before by filing bankruptcy again, even with the new rules that will bite them.

But yeah, that's about when the pilot group will wake up.

And the reply will be... give to PAC, go to LEC meetings, VOTE, show up at rallys (like May 17th)...just be active participants in your career...

oh...and go back in time... 5 years ago....when we should've started....

Yeah, and it will be WAY too late. I don't know what the answer is to keep it from damaging our careers the way it looks to, now that it's already signed, but we'd better start putting SOME kind of defense plan in place FAST, and I've heard NOTHING from Herndon or our guys about it.

Your are expecting people that are not motivated enough to go to meetings to some how gather the gumption to participate in a poll? Thats like asking a blind man what cow looks like. Thats just stupid.

At the bottle last night?

People will read most of their update emails, especially during negotiations. People will participate in a poll (most of the time, if it's not too long-winded and if you load it with an issue that gets their attention, as well as asking that mundane question). People will vote in their MEC/LEC elections. All those things take less than 5 minutes.

Other than that, you're right, they can't be bothered.

I think the problem lies in the sense of entitlement for the fact that they pay dues. Most line pilots believe that's ALL they should have to do to get all the union benefits. Problem is, we're not just fighting for our own contracts and enforcement these days.

THAT'S the issue ALPA (and the NPA, the APA, the SWAPA, etc) needs to drive home to their membership. Scare the bejesus out of them with the truth of what will happen with Open Skies, with another "Bush-type" in the White House driving NMB policy, etc, then TELL them what they HAVE to do in order to keep it from coming to pass.

That's PART of the solution,,, just my .02 cents. I don't know what else from there, but something else has to be done.

 

[WildBlue]

p.s.s. Rumor mill has it at Corporate that Wake will be very shortly assuming the Chief Pilot position. He has vehemently denied it, but you heard it here first.

That one is total B.S. Trenary hates the guy and would never allow it. Besides, if he's tired of all the junk of being MEC, why in the world would he become Chief Pilot and have to deal with all the junk that comes with that?

It will never happen.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It won't REALLY be a problem until about 7-10 years from now, when all the European Ryan-esque carriers start flooding our market with new, ultra-cheap flights, our carriers start bleeding money, and come to us for concessions at the next negotiating sessions, if not before by filing bankruptcy again, even with the new rules that will bite them.

But yeah, that's about when the pilot group will wake up.

Check your numbers. THe dates in Open Skies implementation are single digit years away....

Yeah, and it will be WAY too late. I don't know what the answer is to keep it from damaging our careers the way it looks to, now that it's already signed, but we'd better start putting SOME kind of defense plan in place FAST, and I've heard NOTHING from Herndon or our guys about it.

The Herndon boys battled tooth and nail during the last open skies negotiations...

People will read most of their update emails, especially during negotiations. People will participate in a poll (most of the time, if it's not too long-winded and if you load it with an issue that gets their attention, as well as asking that mundane question). People will vote in their MEC/LEC elections. All those things take less than 5 minutes.

You probably won't be surprised but disapointed at the current particpation rate of the ALPA age 60 poll...

Fact is pilots can't be bothered to do much..... the particpation levels are minor and single digit...

I think the problem lies in the sense of entitlement for the fact that they pay dues. Most line pilots believe that's ALL they should have to do to get all the union benefits. Problem is, we're not just fighting for our own contracts and enforcement these days.

True... in part that is the unions problem for trying to go for a quick buy in that unions serves.... they don't... the are a resource..

THAT'S the issue ALPA (and the NPA, the APA, the SWAPA, etc) needs to drive home to their membership. Scare the bejesus out of them with the truth of what will happen with Open Skies, with another "Bush-type" in the White House driving NMB policy, etc, then TELL them what they HAVE to do in order to keep it from coming to pass.

They don't want to hear it. They love W. Anything else and you are messing with thier identity... Don't mess with someone's DNA.

(daddy....why do we have to sell the house and move.... ??)

That's PART of the solution,,, just my .02 cents. I don't know what else from there, but something else has to be done.

Agreed. Change only occurs when the change is less painful than the status quo....

 

[Lear70]

Check your numbers. THe dates in Open Skies implementation are single digit years away....

Oh, I know. The point I was trying to make is that it will be several years before the airlines feel the pinch in market share as fares are slashed even MORE by these p*ss-ant ULTRA-low-cost carriers from Europe start running trans-cons domestically in the U.S. and attack the best yield routes from the U.S. Majors and LCC's (it takes a while for a new carrier to move into a new country, establish a good hub operation, advertise and get their fares out there, and become enough of a known quantity to start affecting market share).

Then, management will come screaming to the unions for give-backs and pay cuts... again... and THEN pilots will realize what all the fuss was about. Entirely too late to do anything about it.

You probably won't be surprised but disapointed at the current particpation rate of the ALPA age 60 poll...

Fact is pilots can't be bothered to do much..... the particpation levels are minor and single digit...

Maybe YOUR pilots. Our voter turnouts and Wilson polling participation levels in the NPA are in the 70-80% range.

Agreed. Change only occurs when the change is less painful than the status quo....

And by then, it will be far too late. I'm not willing to let it get to that point without trying to change things NOW... which begs the question:

HOW DO WE DO THAT NOW??!!