PNCL MEC Chairman resigns..

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Heh Rez... for an ALPA cheerleader, I think you really lack some historical perspective. You've been brainwashed by the post 9/11 ALPA which has no balls, and no clue how to protect the profession.

Hey Freight Dog.. I was an active Line Pilot before 9/11

If being pragmatic doesn't work, what are your alternatives?

It does work. What doesn't work are your bravado cries, hyberbole and rhetoric.... next...

Option 1 (preferred by today's ALPA), suck it up and live to surrender again another day.

As endorsed by very experienced old school pre 9/11 legacy pilots.... via concessionary contracts. I mean these are the hard core, rough and tough legacy pilots like you Freight Dog.. that know how to kick ass and show management who's boss.. yeah these guys voted to live to fight another day..

Option 2 (old school ways), kick'em in their proverbial nuts i.e. finances if asking nicely doesn't work. Realize that the company, investors and shareholders, banks have way more to lose than you and other employees. Obviously, you've made your choice...

Yeah! way to go.... except for .....

As endorsed by very experienced old school pre 9/11 legacy pilots.... via concessionary contracts. I mean these are the hard core, rough and tough legacy pilots like you Freight Dog.. that know how to kick ass and show management who's boss.. yeah these guys voted to live to fight another day..
​

Frieght Dog.. don't forget that old school PATCO and APA style of kick ass...

Option 1 presents today's ALPA with lack of unity, and a bunch of spineless cowards who are afraid to stand their ground if it means pissing someone off.

Damm those NWA, DAL, UAL, CAL, AMR and AAA pilots for being spineless cowards.. voting for those concessionary TA's...

Option 2 presents a result of strong leadership truly "takin' it back."

gosh... I'm blushing.... you are so kick ass... If I could only be 1/16th of the man you are...

You made a choice. You reap what you sow.

I didn't make any choices. I was displaced then furloughed. My company disregarded our CBA. The RLA made it possible.

As for your attempts to insult me, I expected more from you. I thought you were an educated class act capable of rational arguments. Guess I was wrong.

I thought you were expereinced and educated... looks like you've been watching Walker Texas Ranger too much... get real... A round house kick won't solve your problems...

If you have issues don't get mad at ALPA..go to your nearest crewroom and ask your fellow pilots why they are spineless cowards who vote for concessionary TA's

 

[Freight Dog]

Naw, the last Chuck Norris movie I saw with any sort of roundhouse kick was Mission in Action back in the 80's. Been a while...

But... I do get a big kick out of watching an idealistic and unrealistic CRJ boy who hasn't lost a doggone thing except maybe an opportunity to move into a Boeing, educate us about ALPA and how the pragmatism is the way to go in light of what we lost in terms of pay/retirement/QOL.

My pilot group lost 24% pay, our A-plan (which hosed a number of retirees including a legendary pilot who saved the "convertible 737" back in the 80's), and some work rules. Why don't you quantify your losses and then tell me how I should feel about my union or my career?

Don't get me wrong, you seem like an alright guy with a good message though a bit too idealistic and naive in some ways, but your last post was way off base.

 

[PCL_128]

But... I do get a big kick out of watching an idealistic and unrealistic CRJ boy who hasn't lost a doggone thing except maybe an opportunity to move into a Boeing, educate us about ALPA and how the pragmatism is the way to go in light of what we lost in terms of pay/retirement/QOL.

Don't get me wrong, you seem like an alright guy with a good message though a bit too idealistic and naive in some ways, but your last post was way off base.

You're barking up the wrong tree, there. If you want to think of me in the above way, then go right ahead. I couldn't possibly care less. But you're way off base with Rez. With his multiple furloughs and bankrupt carriers, I think he's got you beat on the "who's suffered more" scale.

 

[Freight Dog]

Well, maybe so. But I didn't expect an apparently mature individual who has gone through multiple furloughs and bankrupt carriers to make a post like the previous one.

Like I said, while I think both of you are good guys, I think both of you are a bit too idealistic and unrealistic with respect to what it will take to recover what was lost. It's sad to see that Rez chose to make a mockery of himself with his last post.

 

[PCL_128]

Well, maybe so. But I didn't expect an apparently mature individual who has gone through multiple furloughs and bankrupt carriers to make a post like the previous one.

What exactly was so bad about his previous post? The man's right!!! "Kicking management in the balls" and "playing hardball" aren't the universal solutions that too many pilots think they are. There's a time for pragmatism and a time for hardball. The key is knowing when to use which strategy. There are very limited circumstances when hardball tactics actually produce results.

Like I said, while I think both of you are good guys, I think both of you are a bit too idealistic and unrealistic with respect to what it will take to recover what was lost.

Idealistic? Sure. Nothing wrong with striving towards certain ideals. Unrealistic? Hardly. It's the average line pilot that is unrealistic. They expect ALPA to wave a magic wand and everything will be alright. They think that if we "kick management in the balls" that they'll just cave in and give us everything that we want. That's unrealistic. Carefully calculated long-term strategies are realistic, and that's how ALPA does business. Will we immediately reclaim all that's been lost over the past 6 years? Nope. That would certainly be unrealistic, but I don't believe that either Rez or myself have said that we will.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Naw, the last Chuck Norris movie I saw with any sort of roundhouse kick was Mission in Action back in the 80's. Been a while...

It was "Missing in Action". Perhaps you are thinking of Mission Impossible which seems to be your mindset. In addition, there seems to be allot missing with your arguements. If you are going to live by pop culture... get it right!!

But... I do get a big kick out of watching an idealistic and unrealistic CRJ boy who hasn't lost a doggone thing except maybe an opportunity to move into a Boeing, educate us about ALPA and how the pragmatism is the way to go in light of what we lost in terms of pay/retirement/QOL.

I agree some of my thougths are idealistic... So I think a majority of ALPA pilots should particapte in thier careers.. if that realistically increases the minority particaption then that is a good thing...no?

My pilot group lost 24% pay, our A-plan (which hosed a number of retirees including a legendary pilot who saved the "convertible 737" back in the 80's), and some work rules. Why don't you quantify your losses and then tell me how I should feel about my union or my career?

'My pain is great than your pain' doesn't work with me. The Fact is every airline pilot is/has taken hits because of 9/11 and poor management. even the brand new guys...

and I am not going to tell you how you should feel. that is up to you. However, I am suggesting HOW we can do damage control and get us on a positive trend.... I may not be right, but I'd like to be a part of the group that wants to effect positive change.

Don't get me wrong, you seem like an alright guy with a good message though a bit too idealistic and naive in some ways, but your last post was way off base.

Fair enough... what workable solutions do you have that will be accepted by gov't, managment and industry that are win/win and will invite us pilots back to the table for futher implementation?

 

[Freight Dog]

Allow me to answer this question by posing one to you guys:

How long have you been in contract negotiations? Now how do you compel your management to give you a fair contract and what incentive do they have to give you one? Do you think that after several years of negotiating the answer is still being pragmatic?

I guess my question is at what point do you decide to drop the pragmatic approach and go for the Chuck Norris approach?

BTW.. that's the one, Rez!

I agree some of my thougths are idealistic... So I think a majority of ALPA pilots should particapte in thier careers.. if that realistically increases the minority particaption then that is a good thing...no?

Yes! Absolutely! But with demoralized pilot groups, how do you get them to participate? All we've seen in the last 6 years was surrender, after surrender, after surrender. Yet, look at the direction of our union. Look at this Age 60 thing as a prime example. Instead of pushing like madmen to get the Akaka Bill passed, we're bickering whether we should allow pilots to fly past 60 despite our shot work rules, lower pay, etc. The priorities are lost and ALPA national policies are brought to question. Look at Flightinfo and the bickering going on here. Now apply the same misguided policies in dealings with the management, and you wonder why you have 14% participation in the PAC or the minimal participation in the union.

It brings me to this:

what workable solutions do you have that will be accepted by gov't, managment and industry that are win/win and will invite us pilots back to the table for futher implementation?

See, this mindset was perfectly fine before the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the corporate America. I don't think they have any qualm about screwing you out of your paycheck or screwing a retiree that might have saved the airline. The today's corporate America consists of carpet-baggers that have no allegiance whatsoever to the entity they're working for. All they care about is the stock price and their bonus. I think once ALPA acknowledges that they're dealing with morally and ethically corrupt management and drops the idealistic pragmatic approach, the sooner we'll be better off. To management, it pays to have status quo. It costs us to have status quo.

What I'm trying to say is that we've been pragmatic long enough and that in order to take anything back, we'll need to hit them where they hurt the most - their finances. Once again, I refer you gents to UAL's Summer of Love. That's the only language that the management will understand and the only incentive to truly negotiate in good faith.

 

[PCL_128]

How long have you been in contract negotiations? Now how do you compel your management to give you a fair contract and what incentive do they have to give you one? Do you think that after several years of negotiating the answer is still being pragmatic?

We've been in negotiations for about two years now. The average time spent in Section 6 historically is about three years. I can't really discuss our strategy for "compelling" management to be reasonable, because that would involve showing our hand. We know for a fact that management reads these boards, and I don't make it a general practice to disclose our strategy to management ahead of time. It's just not very pragmatic. That being said, we certainly have plans to ratchet things up, and we can bring heat to bear on management without breaking the law.

Yes! Absolutely! But with demoralized pilot groups, how do you get them to participate? All we've seen in the last 6 years was surrender, after surrender, after surrender.

Freight Dog, you're missing something here: who decided to "surrender?" The pilots all voted for these concessionary contracts (mostly by significant margins), and ALPA just gave them what they wanted. You can't blame ALPA National for a decision that you make on a local level. ALPA National doesn't control pilot groups or individual MECs. ALPA is happy to provide guidance and assistance, but my experience has been that most MECs ignore ALPA's guidance anyway and make up their own minds. NWA's Council 20 pilots voted in favor of their concessions, and their own LEC leaders told them that they should vote no!!! Do you really expect ALPA National to tell pilots that they can't have what they voted for?

Yet, look at the direction of our union. Look at this Age 60 thing as a prime example. Instead of pushing like madmen to get the Akaka Bill passed, we're bickering whether we should allow pilots to fly past 60 despite our shot work rules, lower pay, etc.

ALPA is working very hard on the Akaka bill. Call Herndon and talk with Leg Affairs if you'd like to verify. The beauty of such a large national union is that we have the resources to fight dozens of battles at once. Just because we are dealing with the Age 60 issue doesn't mean that work isn't being done on Akaka, Open Skies, security issues, etc...

See, this mindset was perfectly fine before the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the corporate America. I don't think they have any qualm about screwing you out of your paycheck or screwing a retiree that might have saved the airline. The today's corporate America consists of carpet-baggers that have no allegiance whatsoever to the entity they're working for. All they care about is the stock price and their bonus. I think once ALPA acknowledges that they're dealing with morally and ethically corrupt management and drops the idealistic pragmatic approach, the sooner we'll be better off. To management, it pays to have status quo. It costs us to have status quo.

I think if you'd talk with the National Officers, you'd find that all four of them agree with you about corporate America!

Once again, I refer you gents to UAL's Summer of Love. That's the only language that the management will understand and the only incentive to truly negotiate in good faith.

The "Summer of Love" was a very specific set of circumstances that don't usually exist. At the time, UAL management was engaged in business deals with Avolar and USAirways, and ALPA knew that there was no way that UAL management would waste the time or resources to fight a protracted legal battle to declare the slowdown as an illegal job action. It was much more in their interests to just pretend that it wasn't happening because they didn't want investors and Wall Street to think that there was massive labor unrest while they were trying to seal some major business deals. It was the prime opportunity for the UAL pilots to engage in some pseudo-self-help with very little risk. Those types of circumstances are very rare.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Allow me to answer this question by posing one to you guys:

How long have you been in contract negotiations? Now how do you compel your management to give you a fair contract and what incentive do they have to give you one? Do you think that after several years of negotiating the answer is still being pragmatic?

The answer lies in the NMB. Not management

I guess my question is at what point do you decide to drop the pragmatic approach and go for the Chuck Norris approach?

BTW.. that's the one, Rez!

We are airline pilots not union thugs. You can use a dirty bomb to get what you want but our image will be tarnished for a long time. We won't get invited to the table of change in the future. There is a reason why the NTSB invits ALPA to be party to accident investigations...even when it wasn't an ALPA pilot flying...

Yes! Absolutely! But with demoralized pilot groups, how do you get them to participate?

Good question. How do you get pilots to help themselves. I mean that is what we are talking about. Is a pilot righteous if he folds his arms and says "I am not going to help my union leadership help me because my expectations aren't being met"

At some point we've got step up to the plate, get informed and do more...

All we've seen in the last 6 years was surrender, after surrender, after surrender. Yet, look at the direction of our union. Look at this Age 60 thing as a prime example. Instead of pushing like madmen to get the Akaka Bill passed, we're bickering whether we should allow pilots to fly past 60 despite our shot work rules, lower pay, etc.

Yup.. we don't know how to work together. One of our problems is our MEC's act like independent units. Each MEC treats each other as suspect. Sure our leadership can work to fix that.. but so can each individual pilot..

The priorities are lost and ALPA national policies are brought to question. Look at Flightinfo and the bickering going on here. Now apply the same misguided policies in dealings with the management, and you wonder why you have 14% participation in the PAC or the minimal participation in the union.

Perhaps they are misguided. However, I will also state that the average memeber isn't informed. Like most issues once on gets all the facts their perspective changes...

It brings me to this:



See, this mindset was perfectly fine before the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the corporate America. I don't think they have any qualm about screwing you out of your paycheck or screwing a retiree that might have saved the airline. The today's corporate America consists of carpet-baggers that have no allegiance whatsoever to the entity they're working for. All they care about is the stock price and their bonus.

Agreed....

I think once ALPA acknowledges that they're dealing with morally and ethically corrupt management and drops the idealistic pragmatic approach, the sooner we'll be better off. To management, it pays to have status quo. It costs us to have status quo.

So ALPA should drop to their level and be morally and ethically corrupt? And conduct illegal job actions. we should become what you deplore?

What I'm trying to say is that we've been pragmatic long enough and that in order to take anything back, we'll need to hit them where they hurt the most - their finances.

It doesn't work.. So discuss PATCO and APA.

but you offer UAL's summer of love...

Once again, I refer you gents to UAL's Summer of Love. That's the only language that the management will understand and the only incentive to truly negotiate in good faith

.

If you look at the history of the UAL pilots and the BS they went thru with Ferris and the ESOP they were able to gain some leverage with the Summer of Love.

Airline managment are scared cornered animals. I think if you went radical it might be the demise of the airline... in addition, which you failed to address is your fellow pilots free will in voting concessionary TA's. PIlots are voting to surrender, fight another day, etc.. they don't want radical.. they want to level off and hope to climb in the future...

In addition, UAL's summer of Love was about not picking up open time. The current situation is pilots are being worked so hard they can't not pick up open time. They are obligated to flying 80-90 hours a month. The work rules and pay are so bad they can't do a summer of love. They can't afford it!

In addition, it is back to the NMB. The NMB won't allow a strike. And the reason why is two of three board members are pro company. The President of the USA appoints these members. He has appointed pro company members. There won't be a strike until a pro labor president places pro labor board members.

So the first step is to vote for a president that is pro labor... but that just pisses off ALPA members. ALPA members love thier pro company presidents!

So its back to the membership.... biting the hands that feeds and sh!ting where they eat....

 

[saabservant]

You guys make good arguments. I don't know as much history or current affairs, but it seems we need to:
1. Change the RLA, or how the mediation board is appointed. Anti-labor med. board = no leverage.

2. Be willing to walk away when they threaten to impose. That is hard, but is the only usable leverage in bankruptcy or cooling off period. At the bogus mesaba bankruptcy, it was mgmt. who came to the mec at the last hour and said "let's make a deal". They knew that mass sick calls, Mx write-ups, and resignations would ensue.
Bottom Line: Even the most senior guys with the most to lose said "I just can't be a part of destroying this profession, and becoming the lowest paid in the country, just to save my job".
The guys an ual, nwa, delta, etc. were not willing to make that commitment(or their leadership was'nt.)

3. Use that major contingency fund to bail out, support the families, and pay the mortgages of members and leadership who are willing to defy a corrupt management and legal culture. A little civil disobedience is in order here...where Mr. Prader leads, members will follow. They are starved for someone with guts to make a stand for the profession and the public. Prader has said "where one group has a problem, we all have a problem".

4. Remove the mgmt. incentive to dangle quids to alpa leaders in exchange for their outsourcing plans. A fragmented, two-class career system has worked for the senior pilots at the majors, but has been disastrous to unity and effectiveness.

no charge for my 2 cents....

 

[Freight Dog]

3. Use that major contingency fund to bail out, support the families, and pay the mortgages of members and leadership who are willing to defy a corrupt management and legal culture. A little civil disobedience is in order here...where Mr. Prader leads, members will follow. They are starved for someone with guts to make a stand for the profession and the public. Prader has said "where one group has a problem, we all have a problem".

You nailed it right there! Except it's PraTer, not PraDer.

Rez... you say that our image would be tarnished if we "acted as union thugs."

Wrong! Whichever way you spin it, we are a unionized work force, and a very weak one at that. We don't realize our own strength. Here's an example of a union that does:

http://starbulletin.com/2002/06/28/business/story1.html

Why is a longshoreman making over 100k while a CRJ captain is making 50k?

Now for us, I'm not suggesting breaking legs or setting stuff on fire. I'm talking simple, subtle, yet organized effort such as refusing to wait until back at the base to write stuff up, no matter if it's a damn light bulb, not asking for or accepting short cuts by ATC (full route baby!) Oh yeah, when you do write up a burnt out bulb at the outstation, you do NOT use your cell phone to talk to Maintenance Control.

Besides, we've already whored ourselves to the point that this once proud profession is not what it used to be, nor is there the public respect that there once was. I believe that one way we'd get it back is by showing a backbone. You also need a pilot to realize ALPA's potential strength.

Now, you say that pilots have to get involved, and I fully agree with you. But once again, how do you get any pilot group motivated to do what you want them to do? Strong leadership gets results. Unfortunately, I don't think Prater exhibits strong leadership. While he showed promise early on, he really botched it up with the Age 60 issue.

Look at it another way... a strong leader will take the "union thug" way to drive a message home to management - find another way to improve operations, but you ain't touching our pay or retirement. Do you think we'd be in this mess had we been "union thugs" as you call it, or do you think the management would be forced to raise ticket prices just like oil companies raised prices as the pump? 5 years ago, if you told anyone they'd be paying over $3/gallon at the pump, you'd get laughed out of the room because "no American would ever pay that much for gas."

See, Duane was a helluva politicians, but he was no leader. I suspect Prater is no different, although Prater spoke a slightly better line.

PCL128 mentions who voted for these concessions and surrenders, which is a good point. The majority of ALPA pilots did. Why? Because there was no strong leadership at the helm. It's a Catch-22.

I think we're trying to get to the same place, just have a different approach ideas. I'm not much of a politically-correct person. I'm of the opinion that being PC keeps bringing this country to a new low damn-near every day.

See, you can call it being union-thugs, but I believe that may be necessary in order to protect what's left of this profession.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You guys make good arguments. I don't know as much history or current affairs, but it seems we need to:
1. Change the RLA, or how the mediation board is appointed. Anti-labor med. board = no leverage.

In our very capitalistic country that will be difficult. The RLA is designed to keep the vital railroad and airline industry moving. What is also does is keep the revenue coming in. Managmeent will not tolerate any disruption of thier cash flow.

To change the RLA we have to get pro labor congressmen on our side. The way to do that is ALPA-PAC. Plain and simple. Before we do anything else we have to start at the PAC.

2. Be willing to walk away when they threaten to impose. That is hard, but is the only usable leverage in bankruptcy or cooling off period. At the bogus mesaba bankruptcy, it was mgmt. who came to the mec at the last hour and said "let's make a deal". They knew that mass sick calls, Mx write-ups, and resignations would ensue.

Fair enough. Agreed. A favoravle NMB would help too.

Bottom Line: Even the most senior guys with the most to lose said "I just can't be a part of destroying this profession, and becoming the lowest paid in the country, just to save my job".
The guys an ual, nwa, delta, etc. were not willing to make that commitment(or their leadership was'nt.)

I don't know about that...

3. Use that major contingency fund to bail out, support the families, and pay the mortgages of members and leadership who are willing to defy a corrupt management and legal culture. A little civil disobedience is in order here...where Mr. Prader leads, members will follow. They are starved for someone with guts to make a stand for the profession and the public. Prader has said "where one group has a problem, we all have a problem".

Ok... civil disobedience may owrk.. it may backfire... Why not have a majority of ALPA members stand behind its leadership? No this is not being done. A majority of the ALPA members pay thier dues and what results. Instant results...

The political process doesn't work that way. it is slow, deliberate and often unquantifiable... It is rarely one action one result problem solved.

4. Remove the mgmt. incentive to dangle quids to alpa leaders in exchange for their outsourcing plans. A fragmented, two-class career system has worked for the senior pilots at the majors, but has been disastrous to unity and effectiveness.

With both CA and FO reps have equal votes for each member, I am not sure what you mean? can you elaborate?

no charge for my 2 cents....

Send it to ALPA-PAC...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You nailed it right there! Except it's PraTer, not PraDer.

Rez... you say that our image would be tarnished if we "acted as union thugs."

Wrong! Whichever way you spin it, we are a unionized work force, and a very weak one at that. We don't realize our own strength. Here's an example of a union that does:

We are weak because we fight amongts ourselves about what should be done. And we are not active in our union. We want the promised lesuire lifestyle of an airline pilot but we don't want to work the political side to make it happen.

http://starbulletin.com/2002/06/28/business/story1.html

Why is a longshoreman making over 100k while a CRJ captain is making 50k?

Perhaps the containers coming from China are more important that airfare. In addition, does the RLA apply to Longshoreman. Quite often pilots get on here say "look at that union! See they have balls" Well that union doesn't have the RLA and they aren't flying high performance jets...

Now for us, I'm not suggesting breaking legs or setting stuff on fire. I'm talking simple, subtle, yet organized effort such as refusing to wait until back at the base to write stuff up, no matter if it's a dang light bulb, not asking for or accepting short cuts by ATC (full route baby!) Oh yeah, when you do write up a burnt out bulb at the outstation, you do NOT use your cell phone to talk to Maintenance Control.

I believe that would be weak at best..plus you have to get everyone to join up. That is diffiuclt. Easy to say.. "well if we would all just fly Mach .70.."

Actually there is a huge (hopefully) Air Line rally on May 17th in Wash DC. THAT is where we need to show up. Are you going to be there?

Besides, we've already whored ourselves to the point that this once proud profession is not what it used to be, nor is there the public respect that there once was. I believe that one way we'd get it back is by showing a backbone. You also need a pilot to realize ALPA's potential strength.

First you need that pilot to show up to an union function. How about May 17th?

Now, you say that pilots have to get involved, and I fully agree with you. But once again, how do you get any pilot group motivated to do what you want them to do? Strong leadership gets results. Unfortunately, I don't think Prater exhibits strong leadership. While he showed promise early on, he really botched it up with the Age 60 issue.

Ok..so now what? Is that it? I agree strong leadership is critical. But if you don't have it..(or believe that you do) then what?

Look at it another way... a strong leader will take the "union thug" way to drive a message home to management - find another way to improve operations, but you ain't touching our pay or retirement. Do you think we'd be in this mess had we been "union thugs" as you call it, or do you think the management would be forced to raise ticket prices just like oil companies raised prices as the pump? 5 years ago, if you told anyone they'd be paying over $3/gallon at the pump, you'd get laughed out of the room because "no American would ever pay that much for gas."

Air Line Pilots don't Run Airlines....

The response to this is... "As management we are going to get our cost savings. Either you pilots take concessions or we will furlough more of you."

The union has a responsibility to help as many pilots. If they told management to stick it, like you suggest then the outcry from the furloughed pilots would be that ALPA is a senior pilots club...

See, Duane was a helluva politicians, but he was no leader. I suspect Prater is no different, although Prater spoke a slightly better line.

You might be right. You've got to a politican in DC. The leadership could have been better... but it isn't... so does that mean you aren't going to vote in LEC elections? Give to the PAC, and particiapte?

PCL128 mentions who voted for these concessions and surrenders, which is a good point. The majority of ALPA pilots did. Why? Because there was no strong leadership at the helm. It's a Catch-22.

Well....what to do....?? This is a democracy.... It came down to Prater and Woerth in the last election...

I think we're trying to get to the same place, just have a different approach ideas. I'm not much of a politically-correct person. I'm of the opinion that being PC keeps bringing this country to a new low dang-near every day.

I agree too, and I am not puch for PC either..rather praticality or cause and effect.

See, you can call it being union-thugs, but I believe that may be necessary in order to protect what's left of this profession.

You want to go radical... I just want pilots to particapte. Do a cause and effect analysis....

When considering radical look at PATCO and the APA.

Then consider a huge turnout May 17th. (it worked for MLK Jr)
Consider not 14% giving to the PAC but 70%. That is alot of face time with allot of Congressmen.
Consider not 5% LEC meeting participation but 50%. That is allot of pilots educated on the issues and supporting ALPA instead of just saying this is FUBAR.

Political action is a slow and methodical. Too many pilot have been doing nothing for so long and now they really hate the state of the profession and want action. It is akin to getting fat. For years a person ate poorly and gained so much weight over time and suddenly they've decided enough! And they want quick results! Well if you gained so much weight over the years it will take years to come off....

Maybe you want to lipo or stomach staple? :beer:

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez, as usual, correct, but not quite complete.

Other unions *DO* have more balls, way more than us. But then again, they don't suffer from Shiny Truck Syndrome or oh-my-God-please-don't-furlough-me syndrome. You are also correct when you say that they don't have RLA to deal with.

This presents us with a moral dilemma:

1) Do we accept managements' "cost cutting" in terms of accepting substandard pay/work rules/retirement and keep more people on the property at the expense of degrading the profession?

2) Do we tell the management to cram it up their cornholes and let them furlough the bottom guys because then the management will ultimately have to expand if they want their bonuses, and the furloughees will have a better job to come back to?

So let's see... shi*ty job to stay with vs. furlough to come back to a good job? There's no right or wrong answer here. This is where every pilot has to decide what's worth more. Somewhere you have to draw a line and realize that management has way more to lose than a pilot. This whole thing is worth much more money to them than it is to us, so any cost-savings not realized by them will ultimately hurt them as well, and I'll bet you that long-term, they don't want that.

You know where I stand - I'd rather take a furlough and go work at Home Depot if it meant coming back to a good solid job. The current path is a downward spiral, and the question is when do you decide enough is enough.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, as usual, correct, but not quite complete.

Other unions *DO* have more balls, way more than us. But then again, they don't suffer from Shiny Truck Syndrome or oh-my-God-please-don't-furlough-me syndrome. You are also correct when you say that they don't have RLA to deal with.

Ok.. but is that a leadership problem or the will of the membership? The membership has 'shiny truck' and 'don't furlough me'.... So let's take it up with them....

The PATCO/APA screw ups have hurt us bad...

This presents us with a moral dilemma:

1) Do we accept managements' "cost cutting" in terms of accepting substandard pay/work rules/retirement and keep more people on the property at the expense of degrading the profession?

That has already been answered... the pilots concessionary TA's

2) Do we tell the management to cram it up their cornholes and let them furlough the bottom guys because then the management will ultimately have to expand if they want their bonuses, and the furloughees will have a better job to come back to?

Is that risk you are willing to take with another guys ability to pay his mortgage? Before you reply, it is easy to say yes when you aren't acutally in that position of responsibility...

So let's see... shi*ty job to stay with vs. furlough to come back to a good job? There's no right or wrong answer here. This is where every pilot has to decide what's worth more. Somewhere you have to draw a line and realize that management has way more to lose than a pilot. This whole thing is worth much more money to them than it is to us, so any cost-savings not realized by them will ultimately hurt them as well, and I'll bet you that long-term, they don't want that.

You are playing poker... I think your assumption that management has more to lose is false.

You know where I stand - I'd rather take a furlough and go work at Home Depot if it meant coming back to a good solid job. The current path is a downward spiral, and the question is when do you decide enough is enough.

What assurances do you have that you will have a job after working home depot?

And what about the PAC? The PAC isn't the cure all end solution to our problems. But it is a part of it.



Look man, Open Skies is coming. All of what you are talking about and what your concerns are mean nothing if Open Skies doesn't include us. The time to get involved, educated and effective is now.

Sitting around like we have all done in the past is going to be our demise. If we want this profession to be anything worth while we are going to have to stop being spectators and start being players in our careers.

These are no longer options:

Not giving to the PAC
Not voting
Not attending LEC meetings
Showing up, flying your trip and going home.
Not attending Picketing
Not unifying


One of the problems is this. The CEO's of Airlines are not airline men. They sit around the country club with single malt scotch, $100 cigars and talk to thier non airline-CEO buddies who are also part of globalization and liberalization. Their buddies talk about globally accessable cheap labor. So the airline CEO thinks "If I could get foreign pilots to fly my jets and set up dispatch/crew scheduling in India I would save so much money!"

This isn't today. This is what is coming 10+ years from now. Maybe you'll have retired by then, but do you want to vacation with Foreign pilots (maybe a radical extremist) flying you to FLL so you take your cruise on a (already) foreign ship then we should continue to what we do best- complaining about poor leadership.....

You've got valid points... but you are trying to control what you can't... who is nominated and elected in leadership positions and what they end up doing.

What you can control is your activism...

No matter what.. if you want more out of your union, its leadership and want your union to be more effective you are going to have to get [more] involved...

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... What do you think negotiations are? It is a big poker game. If you don't approach it as such, you're doomed to lose from get-go. Might as well fold right then and there.

You think we have more to lose than management? See, that's what the management wants you to think.

Watch this video...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement/view/2_hi.html

I'm pretty sure you might have seen it already.

After seeing this, do you still think we have more to lose? I think they stand to lose a lot more than we do.

On top of that... how can any manager justify any significant raises for the labor in wake of airline management getting away with this? Think they'll give it up without labor needing to kick them in the balls? I don't.

You're right with your theory that we need more participation. All I'm saying is that the motivation for doing so has to come from the top, or it ain't happening. Simple as that.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Well, maybe so. But I didn't expect an apparently mature individual who has gone through multiple furloughs and bankrupt carriers to make a post like the previous one.

Like I said, while I think both of you are good guys, I think both of you are a bit too idealistic and unrealistic with respect to what it will take to recover what was lost. It's sad to see that Rez chose to make a mockery of himself with his last post.

Freight dog, Rez and PCL_128 are both sitting ALPA reps. What do you expect them to say?

Right now, ALPA national is being run by the staff (lawyers in particular), not the pilots.

The first problem is a legal department that is scared of its own shadow. Maybe you can thank the RJDC and the fallout from the Comair strike and Delta injunctions, but every time an MEC tries to put something out that the lawyers don't like, it gets squelched. The lawyers even reigned in Prater's intital rhetoric because they have everyone scared of being sued or injuncted out of existence. They even tell the individual reps in Leadership School to take out personal liability insurance because they are "not protected by ALPA from lawsuits stemming from decisions during their term". Then they tell you that you will be personally sued and have your family's assets wiped out of you do something that could harm your company or misrepresent a pilot. No wonder the reps have become "pragmatic"!

The second problem is Jalmer Johnson, the General Manager (he functions as CEO of ALPA) was given the helm by Woerth during the post 9/11 cost cutting and he never gave it back. During Woerth's whole second term, Jalmer was the one who stood up to the MECs and the officers. When you control the purse strings, you control the situation. Ironically, Jalmer does not like pilots. He views us as fat whiny greedy bastards just like the other CEOs. He's also responsible for causing the staffers to strike last year. Yeah, how embarassing that a union was struck by another union!

Prater tried to stand up to him and got his pee pee whacked. You see, Jalmer is the boss of the staff, so if he disagrees with a position, he can override the presidents wishes by convincing the staff it's too costly and legal that it's too dangerous. So that's what happens. Just like most corporations, ALPA has become a bloated, management heavy manager of branded services.

But what other choice do we have? Independent unions? Not enough clout nationally and internationally.

The young reps like Rez still have the fire in their belly that they will change ALPA. What happens is that ALPA changes them through peer pressure, and they become cheerleaders. Hence the passionate responses pro-ALPA.

Take what the ALPA reps say in this context.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez... What do you think negotiations are? It is a big poker game. If you don't approach it as such, you're doomed to lose from get-go. Might as well fold right then and there.

You think we have more to lose than management? See, that's what the management wants you to think.

Watch this video...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement/view/2_hi.html

I'm pretty sure you might have seen it already.

After seeing this, do you still think we have more to lose? I think they stand to lose a lot more than we do.

On top of that... how can any manager justify any significant raises for the labor in wake of airline management getting away with this? Think they'll give it up without labor needing to kick them in the balls? I don't.

You're right with your theory that we need more participation. All I'm saying is that the motivation for doing so has to come from the top, or it ain't happening. Simple as that.

FD. I haven't seen that video. I watched the entire 18m. Informative.

You are thinking tactically. You are not thinking strategically. I am sure you noticed but did you realize that all of what UAL did was thru the BK code and in part the PGBC. The picture of the Capitol dome should have tied it all together. ALPA is part of the AFL-CIO. A strategic move that David Behnke, first ALPA president, did unilaterally in the late 1930's to make ALPA more effective. Even then pilots resisted the AFL-CIO.

The point of the AFL-CIO? ALPA is part of a transportation trades group within the AFL-CIO called the TTD or Transp. Trades Dept. It consist of 32 tansportation labor unions. They are effective on CapHill. Recently they've stopped some pretty nasty legislation in the Port Security Bill that would have had serious implications for us. This is part of ALPA's effectiveness that you don't hear about, thus many pilots think ALPA is useless.

If ALPA, the TTD and the AFL-CIO had more effectiveness (read money from the PACs) then they could've been more influential in creating federal code in the BK laws and PBGC that prevented

• The ability to underfund retirements
• Allowing companies to game the BK law
• Prevent first orders that exclude employees
• Suporirity claims that are pre cooked for the banks and exclude the employees

This of course would help defer the mind set of 'how poorly can we treat the employee but keep them there'


We are going around in circles. You keep going back to leadership and I agree. However, you say the leadership isn't good enough. I agree too. Now what? What are you going to do about your poor leadership quagmire?

Here is another point. There can be no leadership without followership. You can have a large membership but if they are not particpating then how can the leaders lead. I went to a council meeting late last year. Four pilots out of 280 showed up. How do you expect the leadership to lead four pilots to effectiveness?? Before you claim the leadership needs to do better the membership needs to become followers. Right now the answers are in the mirror. After we increase our particpation, get informed and involved..only then can we effectively demand better leadership....

Yes the leadership could be better. So could the weather, so could my wife, so could my children.... I got it..... now what?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Freight dog, Rez and PCL_128 are both sitting ALPA reps. What do you expect them to say?

Right now, ALPA national is being run by the staff (lawyers in particular), not the pilots.

The first problem is a legal department that is scared of its own shadow. Maybe you can thank the RJDC and the fallout from the Comair strike and Delta injunctions, but every time an MEC tries to put something out that the lawyers don't like, it gets squelched. The lawyers even reigned in Prater's intital rhetoric because they have everyone scared of being sued or injuncted out of existence. They even tell the individual reps in Leadership School to take out personal liability insurance because they are "not protected by ALPA from lawsuits stemming from decisions during their term". Then they tell you that you will be personally sued and have your family's assets wiped out of you do something that could harm your company or misrepresent a pilot. No wonder the reps have become "pragmatic"!

The second problem is Jalmer Johnson, the General Manager (he functions as CEO of ALPA) was given the helm by Woerth during the post 9/11 cost cutting and he never gave it back. During Woerth's whole second term, Jalmer was the one who stood up to the MECs and the officers. When you control the purse strings, you control the situation. Ironically, Jalmer does not like pilots. He views us as fat whiny greedy bastards just like the other CEOs. He's also responsible for causing the staffers to strike last year. Yeah, how embarassing that a union was struck by another union!

Prater tried to stand up to him and got his pee pee whacked. You see, Jalmer is the boss of the staff, so if he disagrees with a position, he can override the presidents wishes by convincing the staff it's too costly and legal that it's too dangerous. So that's what happens. Just like most corporations, ALPA has become a bloated, management heavy manager of branded services.

But what other choice do we have? Independent unions? Not enough clout nationally and internationally.

The young reps like Rez still have the fire in their belly that they will change ALPA. What happens is that ALPA changes them through peer pressure, and they become cheerleaders. Hence the passionate responses pro-ALPA.

Take what the ALPA reps say in this context.

Another weather man telling us what a window can...... I can easily look out the glass and know everything you are saying.... so what are you really contributing...

Let's liken our situation to a crash landing is desolute area.

You consistantly reiterate.... 'The airplane is wrecked, we are hundreds of miles from rescue, there is limited food, people are hurt our future is dim.'

To which I reply: thanks for the brilliant analysis. Do you have anything to offer to help us...

To which you respond: 'The airplane is wrecked, we are hundreds of miles from rescue, there is limited food, people are hurt our future is dim.'

To which I say: I realize that.. what can we do to improve our situation?

And you reply: 'The airplane is wrecked, we are hundreds of miles from rescue, there is limited food, people are hurt our future is dim.'
​

Valid points JK.. I don't necessarily disagree....

The question is .... what are you going to do about it....

 

[John Pennekamp]

Another weather man telling us what a window can...... I can easily look out the glass and know everything you are saying.... so what are you really contributing...

Let's liken our situation to a crash landing is desolute area.

You consistantly reiterate.... 'The airplane is wrecked, we are hundreds of miles from rescue, there is limited food, people are hurt our future is dim.'

To which I reply: thanks for the brilliant analysis. Do you have anything to offer to help us...

To which you respond: 'The airplane is wrecked, we are hundreds of miles from rescue, there is limited food, people are hurt our future is dim.'

To which I say: I realize that.. what can we do to improve our situation?

And you reply: 'The airplane is wrecked, we are hundreds of miles from rescue, there is limited food, people are hurt our future is dim.'
​

Valid points JK.. I don't necessarily disagree....

The question is .... what are you going to do about it....

What a cop out. You lambast me for pointing out the obvious (which really wasn't so obvious), then you agree with me, then shrug there's nothing we can do, then ask what MY solution is?

You're the ALPA rep, what are YOU going to do about it? You've got the votes, sport! Quit being a lap dog, and preaching the party line. Start by thinking creatively, independently. You will never fix ALPA, but if you understand the system, you can use it to your advantage. The more pilots who find out what really happens up in that converted warehouse in Herndon, the more pressure there will be to change.

In the meantime, fight for what your pilots need and don't let National control your thoughts or your words. Don't believe everything they told you in Leadership School! Jalmer and Skiados wrote the curriculum!