Senaca's, Mountains and Ice.

[T206driver]

Hey Folks;
I fly for an operation that likes to use a Seneca 2's and 3's for mountain operations. Today, 04-12-07 was rather unnerving. There was an a snowstorm brewing over the continental divide, low ceilings and forcast moderate ice in the high country. Now the POH states that the airplane is good for light ice all altitudes and moderate ice below 10000' MSL as long as the de-ice equipment is installed and functional. Well as some 135's are 134.5. The boss has a propensity of sending this airframe into the high country like DURANGO, Co. I have been upset since last November over some of the de-ice equipment failing numerous times during pre take-off checks. I have delayed and or cancelled 3 trips due to forcast ice. We just received or multi-plane multi pilot authorization. Our other pilot took a trip today to DRO in this rotten weather. I would have refused today's flight. It's no wonder my login at FlightSchedulePro has been shut off by my employer. Ice belongs in my drink NOT on my wings!!!! I guess I need to find new employment. ;(

 

[Say Again Over]

I had a friend tell me a horror story about conditions going into Durango, long story short, he touched down with full power, the airplane was coming down due to airframe icing, one way or the other. Type was a CE421. Screw the job, fly safe.

 

[T206driver]

One time I delayed a flight out of DRO at 4 am because a King Air reported mod ice east of Farmington. I waited till sun up so I could SEE what I was really doing.

 

[Doug Parker]

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Do you fly for Blanding ??


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[Prof. ATP]

Hey Folks;
I fly for an operation that likes to use a Seneca 2's [...] Ice belongs in my drink NOT on my wings!!!! I guess I need to find new employment. ;(

I have flown Senecas in winter weather all over Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, and Colorado, and I was a Seneca check airman for many years. Ice is a fact of life in this part of the world, and the Senecas actually handle the ice a lot better than other airplanes I have flown, as long as everything is working. My employer kept everything working...the biggest problem was the pitot heat, which was not always good enough to leave you with a working airspeed indicator. Known power settings and attitudes worked fine.

If your employer won't keep things working, go elsewhere. If you have not had adequate training in using the deice equipment you should get it.

 

[T206driver]

I found out early on about the pitot heat. These things will fool you on the ground. Yea, they get warm on the ground. So what. Its should BURN your fracking hand! Piper made there fin style pitots with 2 working elements, 1 just won't cut it. Like I did, received dumb looks from the head wrench untill you prove him wrong. So I pulled the damn thing out of its mountings and sure as ice is cold, one of the elements was NOT working. It helps to be a former Air Force C-130 Mech.
We have had numerous malfunctions of the boots and prop heat on the 3, this makes me very distressed. These tools HAVE to work period, no defered BS when you are in the rocks and up high. It really bothers me that our other new pilot who is a CFII took a trip into the snow on Thursday. He has more bravery than me or maybe I want to outlive those folks that don't like me.

 

[svcta]

Just walk away. You can't be responsible for other people's bad judgement. And anyone who would talk you in to changing your mind isn't someone you want to work for. I flew cargo for a guy that would tell me "that's what tomorrow is for" and send me to a hotel when I called him and said the weather was over my head. It's a great attitude and it's rare but can be found. And because of his trust I always tried harder to find solutions to problems and get the flights done.

His Mx was great and he treated his pilots well. I'll bet it paid off in spades at the end of the year.

 

[T206driver]

Thanks a bunch Prof ATP and Svcta. I have been feeling crappy about the whole darn thing. It's just that I kinda wanted to stay in Colorado due to family reason. I guess I'll have to move. At least an air mattress is easier to move than a full bed.

 

[Golden Falcon]

If your employer purposely denied you the necessary info for safe flight planning he should not be worked for...dont ever feel lousy for not doing a flight you feel uncomfortable with just because some other colleague will operate the flight does not make it safe, or you incompetent...by all means YOU are the PIC and responsible for the safe conduct of the flt...be safe...and good on you by the way!!!!

 

[Captn]

Always listen to that "little voice". My creed: There is no person, place or thing worth dying for. After 37 years of flying as instructor,charter, corporate and airline pilot, I still let that philosophy guide my decision process.
Easy to say... a little tougher to do sometimes

 

[bell47]

The chief pilot that used to try and push me to do unsafe things all the time, DIED, (yup, D-I-E-D, in an Aztec) about a year after he let me go because I refused to fly aztecs and BE-18's overgross. Sure, he didn't say that's why he let me go, he just said we don't have enough work. I stood my ground, and it cost me a job, but it probably saved my life. You know what they say about the old one's and bold one's.....

 

[T206driver]

Guys, that is some SOUND advice to live by, THANKS a bunch !!!!

 

[pilotpat]

God...the guy died doing probably what he was saying was okay to do...karma, man. Karma.

Anyway, I upgraded at the end of last summer. The first thing I learned was NO ONE HAS YOUR BACK. At least not in 134.5. I've gotten in a few "discussions" about flying in crap wx, why can't you land on a 4000' runway...usually with sigmets abound and airport analysis, and I honestly feel that because I'm the only "PIC" on the equipment, I still have a job. Does that give me extra confidence? Yup, but it still wouldn't deter me from saying "no" if we had 10 PIC's. My mantra, "No one ever NEEDS to land in ASE".

 

[Say Again Over]

2000 TT and PIC in DA20, that's doing good too!

 

[pilotpat]

2000 TT and PIC in DA20, that's doing good too!

I sincerely appreciate that. Thank you.

 

[bell47]

God...the guy died doing probably what he was saying was okay to do...karma, man. Karma.

Anyway, I upgraded at the end of last summer. The first thing I learned was NO ONE HAS YOUR BACK. At least not in 134.5. I've gotten in a few "discussions" about flying in crap wx, why can't you land on a 4000' runway...usually with sigmets abound and airport analysis, and I honestly feel that because I'm the only "PIC" on the equipment, I still have a job. Does that give me extra confidence? Yup, but it still wouldn't deter me from saying "no" if we had 10 PIC's. My mantra, "No one ever NEEDS to land in ASE".

He DID die doing something he used to fuss at me for ,but he was not overgross at the time. What comes around really does go around!

 

[pilotpat]

That's tragic man, but you are correct and now there's probably a widow trying to take care of the kids. F'ng sucks. Another HUGE reason to stand your ground!

 

[AC560]

I found out early on about the pitot heat. These things will fool you on the ground. Yea, they get warm on the ground.

Was checking it on the ground one day sitting in the cockpit with another guy. Just as we were going to go out and another guy came walking up to chat through the storm window. About 5 seconds after he got there his hand shot into the air and he was howling as the smell of burning flesh rose up in the soft autumn air. My only comment was why the f*ck would you lean on a pitot tube.

In the end he learned not to lean on parts of an aircraft and I learned my pitot tube heat worked really good. Don't we all love happy endings.

 

[pilotpat]

:laugh: I'm sorry..."the smell of burning flesh rose up in the soft autumn air". 'Ya know, I just about spilled my drink.

 

[T206driver]

Maybe it's good I am out of there. More times than I care to think about I was told to fly over gross and twice pressured to depart almost zero zero. The more I think about this place the more it is full of it. What do you expect that the day to day owner/partner/manager/shot caller is only a fraking private pilot and has ZERO training in the instrument world.