Colgan - Mesaba Letter

[Fred Rogers]

Hey Guys, check this out....
http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...iew.aspx?itemid=7730&ModuleId=9065&Tabid=2223

if that link doesn't work, just go to www.alpa.org/colgan and click on the letter from Mesaba.

Also compare Colgan to Mesaba on www.airlinepilotcentral.com

we have 3 more airplanes and just over 1/2 the pilot staff. Very interesting things to consider. Nobody ever accused us (CJC Pilots) of not working hard.

Fred

 

[suupah]

That is one of the biggest issues at Colgan air. Their systematic understaffing. it isn't because of a pilot shortage, it is by design. That is how they reduce their costs and create a greater margin. The only problem is, as we all know, the pilots pay the cost of understaffing.

If they gave us a portion of the salary of the unhired pilots needed to run sufficient reserve coverage that might take some of the edge off. Or perhaps if there were completion incentives in teh form of monetary bonuses.

 

[jtrain609]

That is one of the biggest issues at Colgan air. Their systematic understaffing. it isn't because of a pilot shortage, it is by design. That is how they reduce their costs and create a greater margin. The only problem is, as we all know, the pilots pay the cost of understaffing.

If they gave us a portion of the salary of the unhired pilots needed to run sufficient reserve coverage that might take some of the edge off. Or perhaps if there were completion incentives in teh form of monetary bonuses.

Or a union to address QOL issues, retain good people, and cut down the turnover this company has seen.

I think a union would save Colgan money in the long run. Get a good contract in here and it would give the people more opportunity to stay here if they choose, upgrade, and then decide what they want to do with their career.

Think how many FOs have left as soon as their year contract is up? Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to have those people stick around for a few more years, get their time, upgrade, THEN leave if they choose?

Why not allow for better QOL for Colgan Pilots to allow for this? Why not allow for protection while you are at Colgan so you don't need to do a carpet dance at the interview board at Continental.

Bad things happen to good people. ALPA would protect us if something bad happens to a Colgan pilot during the day to day line operations.

That Mesaba letter should be posted in EVERY crewroom at Colgan. Read it, think about it, and see what it is like to go from a family owned company to one on wall street.

 

[SplitBar]

"within 4 years we will be the top paid pilots in the industry"

 

[Ridgeback]

"within 4 years we will be the top paid pilots in the industry"

Mesaba Pilots are already demanding and explaination and supporting doc's.

I think this is far from the truth

 

[Godfather]

I wonder what the next Mike Colgan letter will have to say to Mesaba and Pinnacle MEC letters. I would love to see letters of support from all the ALPA MEC's for the Colgan Pilots especially United, Continental, USAirways and Northwest. Then what's Mike and Phil gonna say then when our Mainline Partners MEC's are behind us?

We don't need those letters. We already have all of ALPA's MEC's support on this and I'm certain that they will be in this with us for the long haul.

So have you sent your card in yet? Still not sure? Then let's talk about it...

For those of you that have sent in your cards, Thank you

 

[xjmnpilot]

Maybe the "regional industry" would have been a better choice of wording.

 

[GEORGE DUBYA]

I heard Pinnacle wants to merge the lists is there any truth to this?

 

[fly4ever]

"within 4 years we will be the top paid pilots in the industry"

Just illustrates that misleading statements or wishful thinking can come from either side of the negotiating table.

 

[Godfather]

I heard Pinnacle wants to merge the lists is there any truth to this?

who knows...with the way that pilots are dropping like flys it wouldn't surprise me. I heard Colgan lost another 15 pilots this month already alone and Pinnacle is losing peeps left and right.

 

[GEORGE DUBYA]

what i meant to say was really alpa. Does anyone besides myself think this would be a bad idea?

 

[340SAM]

So if Colgan was Alpa crew members would stay and not be going to Continental, SouthWest, Airtran ?

 

[jtrain609]

So if Colgan was Alpa crew members would stay and not be going to Continental, SouthWest, Airtran ?

No. If Colgan was ALPA MAYBE, just MAYBE we would have a better retention rate of guys who stay after their first year training contract is up. First officers who are eligable to upgrade wouldn't have their upgrade class pushed back months because there is a shortage of FOs.

 

[vectorvictor]

who knows...with the way that pilots are dropping like flys it wouldn't surprise me. I heard Colgan lost another 15 pilots this month already alone and Pinnacle is losing peeps left and right.

Two things....#1 Glad to see another post from you that I just about agree with. The current attrition rates at both airlines would lead to relatively low pain if the seniority lists were merged with any type of fair compromise on service time. In a year (when it would realistically happen) it would probably be a non-issue except for only the most senior of folks.

#2 My card is in.

 

[DoinTime]

Does anyone besides myself think this would be a bad idea?

Please expound on why merging two pilot groups is a bad idea? Is this a self-centered thought or do you truly think its bad for the profession?

 

[DoinTime]

Two things....#1 Glad to see another post from you that I just about agree with. The current attrition rates at both airlines would lead to relatively low pain if the seniority lists were merged with any type of fair compromise on service time. In a year (when it would realistically happen) it would probably be a non-issue except for only the most senior of folks.

#2 My card is in.

Something to think about when you are pondering what your intentions are with ALPA is that when two ALPA groups merge it is done via the Allegheny-Mohawk labor protection provisions. Put simply that means date of hire seniority integration with dissimilar equipment fences put up for a negotiated duration.

 

[Dr King]

No. If Colgan was ALPA MAYBE, just MAYBE we would have a better retention rate of guys who stay after their first year training contract is up. First officers who are eligable to upgrade wouldn't have their upgrade class pushed back months because there is a shortage of FOs.

Maybe they will stay now because of the second year payrate, nothing to with ALPA

 

[Dr King]

Please expound on why merging two pilot groups is a bad idea? Is this a self-centered thought or do you truly think its bad for the profession?

If there is any merger of the seniority lists it is the Colgan Pilots who get screwed. They have almost four times the amount of pilots then we do. Thre possible scenarios:
1) Staple us to the bottom
2) By hire date--which would screw us becasue people have been at Pinnacle longer then they have been at Colgan
4) Ratio--This means that Jeb would be number five, and alot of Captains would be FO's on the CRJ

Whatever way you look at it we get screwed

 

[jtrain609]

Maybe they will stay now because of the second year payrate, nothing to with ALPA

Increasing the pay of the largest group? Union busting tactic.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Something to think about when you are pondering what your intentions are with ALPA is that when two ALPA groups merge it is done via the Allegheny-Mohawk labor protection provisions. Put simply that means date of hire seniority integration with dissimilar equipment fences put up for a negotiated duration.

Not true. Alleghany-Mohawk is used with ALPA/non-ALPA mergers. ALPA merger policy governs mergers between two ALPA carriers.

 

[SplitBar]

Not true. Alleghany-Mohawk is used with ALPA/non-ALPA mergers. ALPA merger policy governs mergers between two ALPA carriers.

Tell that to the US Air / America West pilots

 

[GEORGE DUBYA]

AMAZING! I don't see any pinncale pilots denying that they want to merge lists! I am going to throw up. How stupid are the Colgan pilots who decided on ALPA! SHould have went with the teamsters. I want to know are there any Colgan pilots who are in favor of merging lists? I think it is obvious COlgan pilots would be at a disadvantage. Can any pinnacle ALPA dude tell me this is not the case and I have nothing to worry about. Please post.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Tell that to the US Air / America West pilots

They aren't using ALPA merger policy? Why not?

 

[Godfather]

Amen!

Tell that to the US Air / America West pilots

The same thing happened with the Piedmont/USAir merger way back. Many Piedmont guys got shoved way down on the list after the merger and have been paying the price ever since getting juked down to Mid-Atlantic, Republic or getting demoted to FO on Reserve with no chance of ever holding a line again for a few more years.

I would hate to see that happen here on the Colganinnacle side.

Now ask yourself this one question.

Can ALPA prevent this from happening to Colgan Pilots? Who will be our voice when the time comes for this? The Colgan Kiss *ss Pilot Committee?

WAKE THE F UP PEOPLE!!!!!! And quit asking the wrong questions if we think ALPA is a bad idea. It sure beats the alternative.

Please, send in the cards now and make it better for all of us.

 

[Godfather]

Hold on a Minute!!!

AMAZING! I don't see any pinncale pilots denying that they want to merge lists! I am going to throw up. How stupid are the Colgan pilots who decided on ALPA! SHould have went with the teamsters. I want to know are there any Colgan pilots who are in favor of merging lists? I think it is obvious COlgan pilots would be at a disadvantage. Can any pinnacle ALPA dude tell me this is not the case and I have nothing to worry about. Please post.

You may be right to a certain extent. PCL Pilots Group may only want both lists merged so that the PCL guys can get more votes for their contract and they can have a say in the Q400 flying. Yes, we are at a big disadvantage if the lists merge regardless if it is done the ALPA way or not. Yes, you are right in that NO COLGAN PILOT IS IN FAVOR OF MERGING THE LISTS. Yes, you need to be worried about a possible merge list and I'm worried with ya as are a lot of us are. Did you read the Pinnacle MEC letter and Resolution decree? Did it say anything about merging lists? Unless I read another letter, the PCL MEC is behind us all the way and want us to have our own contract or am I not getting the message?

BUT PLEASE DON'T CALL US STUPID FOR DECIDING ON ALPA. Do you honestly think Little Jimmy Hoffa and his gang can do any better for us? With the help of the Sopranos, maybe...

BUT DON"T CALL US STUPID for doing something that needs to be done now. What do you think will happen if we say no to ALPA? What do you think if we say yes?

Do you want our future Chief Pilot and his merry men of Company *ss Kissers dictating to us when we don't have any say in what comes down from MC and PT?

Phil and the Colgans are laughing at us right now because we are playing into their hand by having this discussion by fighting amongst ourselves.

WAKE UP SON!!! Why don't you get on a plane Thursday AM and go have some chowda in BOS at Legals. I'm sure there will be some of your fellow COlgan Hommies that would love to sit down and chat about this with you. If you can't beat us....JOIN US and that goes for the rest of you that are thinking the same.

Let me repeat this question before you go to bed....

What will happen to us if we don't decide on ALPA? Everything you are worried about will come true my friend. Sleep on it.

Don't get me wrong G Dub....I love you man and WE NEED YOUR Support as we need all of the Colgan Pilots on this. ALPA (I mean all 60000+ Pilots) is behind us now, including our Pinnacle Brothers and Sisters.

UNITED WE STAND...WITHOUT ALPA WE FALL flat on our faces with no voice, no job protection, no say in seniority lists, no say in anything. Stick with an organization that knows the bidness, I am.

Peace out!

 

[DoinTime]

If there is any merger of the seniority lists it is the Colgan Pilots who get screwed. They have almost four times the amount of pilots then we do. Thre possible scenarios:
1) Staple us to the bottom

Wouldn't happen.

2) By hire date--which would screw us becasue people have been at Pinnacle longer then they have been at Colgan

Depends on where you look on the list. Our average longevity is about 2.5 years. Whats it like at Colgan? Its true that just about nobody at Colgan would get a sniff at the top 250 numbers on the combined list. Its also true that nobody in the top 250 of the PCL list would ever bid down to Colgan to take a 25% cut in pay and fly a Saab.

4) Ratio--This means that Jeb would be number five, and alot of Captains would be FO's on the CRJ

You are assuming that all positions at Colgan would go away and everyone would fly the CRJ. In case you haven't noticed either we are hireing CRJ captains off the street and its not because we don't have any seniority protection rules.

Whatever way you look at it we get screwed

What we all get is to be part of larger transportation system that can't be whipsawed against itself. Colgan guys specifically get significantly enhanced career expectations in case this becomes your last airline. The added bonus is increased job security if this large turborop experiment fails.

 

[70-SS]

Git em Earl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Long live the Tri State

 

[WildBlue]

AMAZING! I don't see any pinncale pilots denying that they want to merge lists! I am going to throw up. How stupid are the Colgan pilots who decided on ALPA! SHould have went with the teamsters. I want to know are there any Colgan pilots who are in favor of merging lists? I think it is obvious COlgan pilots would be at a disadvantage. Can any pinnacle ALPA dude tell me this is not the case and I have nothing to worry about. Please post.

You have nothing to worry about. Doin Time is just about right on his analysis of what would happen and the many reasons you should join ALPA.

Everyone also forgets that in the case of two ALPA carriers merging lists the two MECs would sit down, together, in a room, and discuss how this would be done. You don't just slam the lists together and let the stuff hit the fan. You also negotiate appropriate fence agreements, if that is what you want. I find it amazing, though, that some of the Colgan guys would not want the right to bid for a CRJ position in the event of a combined list. If the sticking point is that the senior Colgan guys want to make sure they get into the Q400, then you negotiate a fence arrangement that blocks anyone at Pinnacle from bidding on any Colgan positions for a period of time. The problem with that one is that the mid-level guys may want the opportunity to fly CRJs.

The point of the post is that with some many opportunities at both companies to upgrade very quickly, negotiating a combined list would not be as difficult as it seems.

On the other hand the negotiations may result in keeping the two separate. What a huge strategic error that would be. If the opportunity presents itself, the two groups would go down as some of the larger fools in the industy.

 

[GEORGE DUBYA]

Okay so now I see that merging lists is a strong possibility. Next I ask to the Pinnacle guys has there been any official discussion of this on you side? ALPA hasn't mentioned it to Colgan Pilots have they mentioned it to you guys?

 

[WildBlue]

George: You don't seem to understand how this works. A combined seniority list could not happen unless both pilot group want that to happen. Unlike US Airwarys/America West the operations are not being technically merged. A combined seniority list would only happen if both groups thought that by doing so would result in a better situation. By the tone of your comment you seem to believe that ALPA can force this upon you. That is not true in this case.

The decision to join ALPA is unrelated to any issues of seniority integration. Do so to protect yourself.

Pinnacle pilots do not want your job, your flying or anything else. What some of us do understand, clearly, is that by combining, we are much, much stronger and our bargaining power increases by a power of 2.