Skywest Alpa Drive

[Ben Dover]

Make sure if you send in your card for information...when a vote comes out and you're not happy make sure you vote.
If you send in your card and don't vote...ALPA automatically counts that as a yes vote.
So if you're unhappy with what you hear, and you sent in for more info...you have to vote NO.

-Just thought I'd throw that in, because believe it or not ALPA doesn't tell you that when they tell you to "fill out your card"
Can you believe they would do that???

Fearmongering really makes you look silly. Why not just stick to the facts.

 

[SkyNation]

maybe because we live in a market driven, capitalist society?

 

[fried chickens]

DING DING DING!!!

Unfortunately, ALPA can't do anything other than help to enforce the contract which the pilots came up with themselves. Why then do pilots and their representatives make such crappy contracts? That could be a thread onto it's own...

I'm hoping that the new leadership at ALPA (Prater, et al) can sincerely guide the regionals who are making new contracts or ammending their old ones to create fair and equitable contracts for company and worker alike. This is where I feel ALPA (national) has failed in the past.

Even a strong union can't do much when the mgmt is hell bent on destroying them. "Fly now, File a grievance later" has become too common place. How long has Mesa pilots been fighting in to have the company follow the contract even after the abitrator ruled somewhat in their favor. How long have PNCL and ASA been in contract talks?

ALPA works great at companys like XJET because mgmt want to work with the pilots

 

[Ponchus pilot]

I really wish an in-house union was practical...seems to work great for APA and SWAPA.

One of the reasons it works for them is that they make a lot more than regionals. 1.95% of dues at a regionals is not enough to properly run a union. The way it works now is that the major airline guys subsidize the little guys.

Also, Swapa and APA do not have the lobby that ALPA has. They do however benefit from it.

 

[HelloNewman]

I see no pro union guy has answered up to the OCs failure to keep the phone line updated. I am not suprised by this at all. Sadly this is the norm of being at an ALPA operated airline. Lots of broken promises and empty statements. When you question the union you get lambasted with cheesy Cliches such as "you are the union". Sorry ALPA but we at SkyWest intend on keeping our 2%. Its a lot better than paying 2% for a crappy magazine and broken promises.

 

[rtmcfi]

I see no pro union guy has answered up to the OCs failure to keep the phone line updated. I am not suprised by this at all. Sadly this is the norm of being at an ALPA operated airline. Lots of broken promises and empty statements. When you question the union you get lambasted with cheesy Cliches such as "you are the union". Sorry ALPA but we at SkyWest intend on keeping our 2%. Its a lot better than paying 2% for a crappy magazine and broken promises.

Nope, no pro-union guy has answered your drivel. However, several hours prior to your post, the line was updated. Typical of you not to let the facts get in the way of your rage. Fire, ready, aim!

Stop pretending to speak for the SkyWest pilots. Are you a sapa rep? Have you taken a poll to find out the SkyWest pilots views? Please stop spouting your idiocy and selling it as the view supported by others.

 

[MYFpilot]

I see no pro union guy has answered up to the OCs failure to keep the phone line updated. I am not suprised by this at all. Sadly this is the norm of being at an ALPA operated airline. Lots of broken promises and empty statements. When you question the union you get lambasted with cheesy Cliches such as "you are the union". Sorry ALPA but we at SkyWest intend on keeping our 2%. Its a lot better than paying 2% for a crappy magazine and broken promises.

New SkyWest Pilot's ALPA Organizing Committee VARS Announcement is up.

Dial 1-888-SKY-ALPA and press 1

 

[~~~^~~~]

Actually, ALPA legal has determined that that isn't legal.

"ALPA legal" told me scope that bound the parent company was "illegal." Then Teamsters did it, the AFA did it and what do you know, Comair did it. It is my understanding that representation was part of the section 6 negotiations that were done at Eagle, Mesa/Freedom, and Chautauqua/Shuttle/Republic/MidAtlantic. I have come to the expectation that ALPA legal practices politics, not law.

You are probably right from a pragmatic view given the size of the SkyWest pilot group. ALPA should have pushed the issue the day the asset purchase agreement was signed, but ALPA was too busy trading ASA flying for "bargaining credits" at the time.

I think the best solution for SkyWest pilots is to join ALPA. However, if they fail to do so, the next best solution is probably for ASA to decertify ALPA. I think ALPA knows this too and this is the real reason why ALPA has decided to not pursue a merger. Again, ALPA legal is representing ALPA, not its members.

If ALPA would represent its members effectively - then this would be a different debate. If ALPA started actually doing something (other than sending money to look like they were doing something) then the SkyWest pilots would see the effective advocacy of the ASA pilots and want to join ALPA. That would be the best solution for all.

 

[SkyNation]

the next best solution is probably for ASA to decertify ALPA.

what are the chances of that?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Actually, ALPA legal has determined that that isn't legal. You can't force a non-union pilot group into a union without a new representational vote. You could certainly negotiate for an integration of the pilot groups, but then a representational vote would have to take place to determine if ALPA would remain as the bargaining agent of the new combined group.

1. Is that what happened at CHQ/Republic and Mesa/Freedom.? I don't recall representational votes after those contracts forced single lists.

2. If you are correct, that could be why ALPA is opposed to forcing the issue in section 6. They may lose ASA with Skywest....

 

[SSDD]

I don't have the big picture, but I can't imagine that an ASA+Skywest combined vote would come to less than 50%+1.

 

[~~~^~~~]

what are the chances of that?

Slim to none and Slim left rehab with Brittany Spears and General Lee. Slim was the one with hair and he was carrying the General's bags.

Besides the first alternative is so much better.

In the mean time if anyone should happen to see ALPA's Cojones, please return them to Herndon. I will pay the shipping (I don't think they weigh what they used to).

 

[fried chickens]

I don't have the big picture, but I can't imagine that an ASA+Skywest combined vote would come to less than 50%+1.

Probably enough disgruntled guys at ASA and definitely enough no votes at Skywest that combine it would be lest than 50%

 

[LAMESAUCE]

why would skywest want to pay 2% for more people to whine to? just keep the money and your sanity.

 

[s.o.sJTB]

I see no pro union guy has answered up to the OCs failure to keep the phone line updated. I am not suprised by this at all. Sadly this is the norm of being at an ALPA operated airline. Lots of broken promises and empty statements. When you question the union you get lambasted with cheesy Cliches such as "you are the union". Sorry ALPA but we at SkyWest intend on keeping our 2%. Its a lot better than paying 2% for a crappy magazine and broken promises.

Last update on the SAPA site is from 1/23/2007. The meeting minutes have ben up to date recently in the last year since the few people who actually looked at the site started complaining. The SAPA secretary gets paid 105 hrs of pay every month to attend the meetings and post updates, it wasnt until people called him on it that he started doing his job. Does any one care? Not really since its management that pays him and not us...I would take his job in a second unfortunately its an appointed position not an elected one!

 

[CFIT]

I would take his job in a second unfortunately its an appointed position not an elected one!

Then you obviously do not have any idea of what the job is.
Give him a call, ask him how much time off he has.


Be careful what you wish for.......

 

[CopilotDoug]

I got burned hard by alpa and ornstein at my last job...

No No No ... you got it wrong! ALPA is GREAT! Didn't you remember anything from the Union-Drive???

Vote for ALPA, but attach a rider to the agreement stating that no dues will be paid until you have a contract over and above what you have now. Then gradiate (is that even a word?) the dues paid according to the additional pay received per the new contract, up to 1.95% of base pay. Make ALPA EARN the dues.

 

[s.o.sJTB]

Then you obviously do not have any idea of what the job is.
Give him a call, ask him how much time off he has.


Be careful what you wish for.......

I bet it was more than the ten days off i had last month as a line holder for less credit.

How long has he been in that position with no real accountability to the pilot group?

The last election for a a paid SAPA position resulted in the incumbent receiving less than 6% of the votes to hold his position. What does that say about SAPA's success and effectiveness in representing the will of our pilot group?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Isn't the whole idea behind a union to protect it's membership from a-holes like JO? Maybe ALPA should protect its membership from guys like JO and then they wouldn't have to avoid being called out for it...?

Why do so many pilots think ALPA is weak when it comes to protection. Have you been watching too many Hollywood movies where the little guy somehow over comes the odds and defeats an over powerful adversary?

Your peception and expectations of ALPA are overstated! Unions do not have the ability to simple protect workers from guys like JO. The people that control this country decided 70 years ago that workers, including pilots, will not stop commerce!

Fly it and Grieve it! Are you kidding! You act like F&G it a new way of thinking at that ALPA has just caved in!

It is not unions rather the RLA! If you want to have more powerful unions then move to Europe or change the RLA! If you don't want to move then we need to get more pro pilot congressmen. Only then can we make modifications to the RLA.

If you don't have good, hard working union reps at your airline, no union will be good for you. All ALPA can do is provide the resources for your group, but your group will have to do the work.

Unions are volunteer organizations! Thus, what do you expect from a volunteer Army!

If you want better protections from JO and a faster grievance process then maybe the limited guys that are doing ALL the work, need some help.


The point?

Your expectations of union effectiveness is not real. What can you control? Immediately? Your particaption and activism. Quit whinning about what your union hasn't done for you, especially when what you expect from them isn't realistic, then... ask..... what can you do to help...

If every ALPA pilot volunteered one hour a month that would be 66,000 man hours. That's 1650 40-hour work weeks. That is 31 years worth of work towards making this profession and career better.

Is five hours month too much to ask for our career?

But we'd rather criticize the guys that are doing all the work, overloaded, while we refuse to volunteer even one hour.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

Will Hellonewman resign his position at SKW if this vote passes?

 

[rtmcfi]

we can dream........

 

[CopilotDoug]

Your perception and expectations of ALPA are overstated!

Rez, is this message being conveyed to Skywest pilots? Or is ALPA banking on the old school, knee-cap busting stereotypes of Unions to get the message across?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Unions are volunteer organizations! Thus, what do you expect from a volunteer Army!

If you want better protections from JO and a faster grievance process then maybe the limited guys that are doing ALL the work, need some help.


The point?

Your expectations of union effectiveness is not real. What can you control? Immediately? Your particaption and activism. Quit whinning about what your union hasn't done for you, especially when what you expect from them isn't realistic, then... ask..... what can you do to help...

If every ALPA pilot volunteered one hour a month that would be 66,000 man hours. That's 1650 40-hour work weeks. That is 31 years worth of work towards making this profession and career better.

Is five hours month too much to ask for our career?

But we'd rather criticize the guys that are doing all the work, overloaded, while we refuse to volunteer even one hour.

Rez,

I agree with you about volunteering, but I doubt that will ever change. Like politics, ALPA business ranks low on the priority list.

That being said, all the volunteering in the world won't do a d@mn bit a good if we aren't unified. Issues like scope, job protection, whipsaw, age-60, and Democratic Presidential endorsements will continue to divide unless we can agree on some middle ground. I'm not going to debate any of the aforementioned topics in this thread, but you and I are on opposite sides of these issues. We can both volunteer to pull on the rope. However if we pull in opposite directions, then our volunteering isn't very effective.

Maybe we should figure out how to pull in the same direction before we try getting more people to pull.....

On another issue that was raised in this thread, PCL 128 said that ALPA legal is saying that a non-union carrier cannot be brought into ALPA through section 6 negotiated single lists without a new representational vote. What are your thoughts on this? Was there a vote for the Mesa/Freedom single list or the CHQ/Republic single list? I don't recall one.

 

[fried chickens]

Rez,

I agree with you about volunteering, but I doubt that will ever change. Like politics, ALPA business ranks low on the priority list.

That being said, all the volunteering in the world won't do a d@mn bit a good if we aren't unified. Issues like scope, job protection, whipsaw, age-60, and Democratic Presidential endorsements will continue to divide unless we can agree on some middle ground. I'm not going to debate any of the aforementioned topics in this thread, but you and I are on opposite sides of these issues. We can both volunteer to pull on the rope. However if we pull in opposite directions, then our volunteering isn't very effective.

Maybe we should figure out how to pull in the same direction before we try getting more people to pull.....

On another issue that was raised in this thread, PCL 128 said that ALPA legal is saying that a non-union carrier cannot be brought into ALPA through section 6 negotiated single lists without a new representational vote. What are your thoughts on this? Was there a vote for the Mesa/Freedom single list or the CHQ/Republic single list? I don't recall one.

They have one senority list just different certificates.

 

[JoeMerchant]

They have one senority list just different certificates.

I understand that. The question is whether or not there was a representational vote after Freedom and Republic were negotiated onto the same list?

 

[merlindrvr88]

What?

Why do so many pilots think ALPA is weak when it comes to protection. Have you been watching too many Hollywood movies where the little guy somehow over comes the odds and defeats an over powerful adversary?

Your peception and expectations of ALPA are overstated! Unions do not have the ability to simple protect workers from guys like JO. The people that control this country decided 70 years ago that workers, including pilots, will not stop commerce!

Fly it and Grieve it! Are you kidding! You act like F&G it a new way of thinking at that ALPA has just caved in!

It is not unions rather the RLA! If you want to have more powerful unions then move to Europe or change the RLA! If you don't want to move then we need to get more pro pilot congressmen. Only then can we make modifications to the RLA.



Unions are volunteer organizations! Thus, what do you expect from a volunteer Army!

If you want better protections from JO and a faster grievance process then maybe the limited guys that are doing ALL the work, need some help.


The point?

Your expectations of union effectiveness is not real. What can you control? Immediately? Your particaption and activism. Quit whinning about what your union hasn't done for you, especially when what you expect from them isn't realistic, then... ask..... what can you do to help...

If every ALPA pilot volunteered one hour a month that would be 66,000 man hours. That's 1650 40-hour work weeks. That is 31 years worth of work towards making this profession and career better.

Is five hours month too much to ask for our career?

But we'd rather criticize the guys that are doing all the work, overloaded, while we refuse to volunteer even one hour.

What do you want Rez? What should the line pilots volunteer for?? Just tell me all about this difficult work going on. Pilots get in trouble, and their reps side with the company. No work involved there. AOPA lobbies congress all year long, they don't ask for member participation. I know ALPO, and what they have done, nothing more than AOPA. Lobby for safety, AOPA does that without members. ALPO is overrated, just look at the carriers with their own union or teamsters. They do much better. What should we volunteer to do, picket? member drive? safety drive? You throw out cliches, but what do you want? The union sucks, and only supports the reps, certainly not the line pilots.

 

[fried chickens]

I understand that. The question is whether or not there was a representational vote after Freedom and Republic were negotiated onto the same list?

Do you mean if Freedom and Republic guys had representives to present their side for intergrating to one list like during a merger? That I'm not sure about. I doubt Freedom had any say since they weren't union prior to the one list.

I would imagine they're all now represented by the usual local domicile/region LECs. I believe ATL/MCO Freedom and IAD Mesa are represented by same LEC.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Your expectations of union effectiveness is not real. What can you control? Immediately? Your particaption and activism. Quit whinning about what your union hasn't done for you, especially when what you expect from them isn't realistic, then... ask..... what can you do to help...

If every ALPA pilot volunteered one hour a month that would be 66,000 man hours. That's 1650 40-hour work weeks. That is 31 years worth of work towards making this profession and career better.

Define "Better", Rez? You already said that the Union can't control pay or hiring/firing. And I will tell you that it really can't protect your job either, as many pro-ALPA pilots would have you believe. It'd be 31 years of work flushed down the toilet.

 

[HelloNewman]

Will Hellonewman resign his position at SKW if this vote passes?

Only if you quit when the union drive fails. Basically the union drive has been destined to fail since the beginning so I am not worried. Don't worry though if you don't quit I won't be disappointed. Union people have a track record of not keeping their word. That ALPA hotline was updated a few days past March 22. They lied about the date on the hotline to make themselves look good for missing two pay days of updates. Basically they have already proven they are liars and are incapable of keeping their word. Very disappointing if you ask me.

BTW that "letter" they wrote to BH most certainly set the tone if they ever were to get elected. ALPA has every intention of being hostile and ruining our relationship with management. The people on the OC are simply angry at the world and they are not to be trusted to negotiate on our behalf. So far they have proven they are liars, don't keep their word and are extremely hostile. Yea this vote has been destined to fail since day one. I am just counting down the days until we can party our brains out in chicago when the drive fails. Even union supporters will be invited.

 

[rtmcfi]

Only if you quit when the union drive fails. Don't worry though if you don't quit I won't be disappointed. Union people have a track record of not keeping their word.

And I guess you have a track record of putting words in peoples mouths. I don't recall anyone saying they would quit if a union drive were to fail. PoinProve otherwise, and I will happily retract my statement.

Why should this be a tit for tat anyway? You are the one who does not wish to be reresented by a union. Do you feel that union representation is such a burden that you would go elsewhere? Those that are already at SkyWest have demonstrated that, union or not, they wish to remain SkyWest employees. Can you say the same?