Advice to aspiring airline pilots

[Swaayze]

In trying to make decisions about my own career I think I've finally figured out what I wish I'd known 15 years ago when I started. Take this advice as worth what you paid for it but at least consider it if you're looking to get into the airline industry.

Assuming you're young and single, or at least with no kids and a willing wife, you should take the crappiest regional job you can find. In the recent past I'm talking about the Colgans, Great Lakes, Big Skys and Mesas of the world (this is not a discussion about withholding applicants so these carriers will have to improve or die, start another thread if you want). These carriers will always have significant attrition leading to a reasonably quick upgrade, and if you can find one that's also growing go there at almost any cost. You could also get away with scheduled freight like Ameriflight or similar ops that have quick turbine time in a scheduled setting. Move to base, THEN STAY employed there until you have 1500-2000 hours of turbine PIC! Do not leave to go to Allegiant. Do not leave to go to FlexJet. STAY PUT, DO NOT CHASE QUALITY, BIG AIRPLANES OR MONEY, YET! Once you have the PIC then you can make a move to begin to have a life outside of aviation. When you're young and unencumbered you can make a good time practically anywhere, but start with marriage and kids and life gets very complicated for a pilot. After you have the 2000 TPIC you can come to Eagle (or Horizon or Allegiant or try fractionals or whatever) so you can be based in ORD or MIA or where you WANT to be based and start to fly for a quality operation that will give you a better QOL while grabbing for what's left of the brass ring.

BTW, this is nothing more than variation/detail on the old saying that if you want to suceed financially you need to stick with your first wife, first house, etc.


Good luck and have fun!

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Glad to see some common sense!

 

[eyeh8flt]

Listen up everyone, he is right. Places like Ram air, flight express, package express are a waste of time. I also had to learn the hard way and get ripped off and lied to at the same time. I wish I had gone to one of these places like some of my buddies did. I am now way behind the career power curve.

 

[sleddriver77]

The BEST advice for aspiring airline pilots...

FORGET IT!!

Become a doctor or a lawyer or a loanshark or something...

Then buy an airplane, and fly only for FUN!!!

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Very good post. Shortcuts usually lead to dead ends. I know it is a lost ideal but dealing with grief and paying dues builds character and integrity which are two of the most rare traits left in society. Everyone in this country feels they are too good for everything and feel entitled that they should have more. Is it any wonder that the rest of the industrialized WORLD is growing in economic development and we are shrinking. We are now the consumers of the world living in an abyss of debt. If there is a useless gadget or gizmo or other techno crap we will buy it and we will open a new credit card to get it. There are some ok places to work in the regional world and there are some not ok places. Probably the best place all around is XJT. Here is the problem.... that same culture that was described a few lines ago doesnt want quality anymore. They want cheap. It is the corporate culture that is now the religion of this country. Get lots done as cheap as possible. Make money for majority stock holders. Funnel as much wealth close to the top as absolutely possible. So if you want the "good" life now it comes with some drawback. Longer upgrade for one which translates to less income over the long run. The less you make now... the less you save 401k, less you invest, the harder to own real estate etc. Regional FOs just dont make any money that is worth the effort. Now some people are happy to stay as captain at some of these regionals. They probably got in some years ago..... have been captain for awhile.... maybe moved close to their base and now have good schedules making max pay for their pay scale. Something to think about is to get hired now you are still at the bottom of the expansion that took place from early 2000s. Even if a company is hiring 1000 pilots. How many are there now? 1600? 2500? If you were hired now you have to factor in that half of those guys are going to upgrade before you. Most of the companies will be upgrading from attrition only. Even when majors start hiring it wont be gangbusters and the fact that for about 6 years there has been no hiring means the pool of qualified guys has gotten very big so there still wont be enough jobs to take everyone who meets requirements. So there will be guys staying put at those more "quality" regionals. Some guys with enough time at Whisky, XJT, Shupubliquat, etc... they are probably making a pretty decent nut with a good schedule. So if you feel that you can get to the big time then you want the PIC as soon as possible. As an example, my total time pursuing aviation has been about 7 years. Did everything Part 61, instructed, flew 135.... there was no pilot factory for me. I went to a "crappy" regional and did about 4 years with them and got that PIC and now work for a corporate company flying some ballz equipment making bank. I make more first year than most CAs at regionals. I had a lot of luck... but I also worked my a$$ off. In today's industry I dont think that is too bad. There are people who have been sitting as FO at some places close to how long I have been flying totally. This is still a huge gamble. Anything can happen to bury the industry again. No matter how you slice it things are going to suck for you for awhile. My thoughts are dont chase planes or dream jobs. It is better to have a dirty dollar than a skiny dime.

 

[OzBushWhacker]

paying dues builds character and integrity which are two of the most rare traits left in society

Good post.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

By accepting jobs at lower pay rates you are effectively moving the competitive pilot rate further down the pay scale. Whether or not you fly a CRJ or a 747 you have to pay your bills. There is no difference between a 747 and a CRJ in terms of job description. So whomever is working for the lowest rate is the competitive rate, it is managements job to seek the competitive rate. Even at SWA they are at the competitive rate of around 2 and 1/2 cents. They just make more because they have less employees per aircraft. How low do you want it to go? in 1998 the rate was almost 4 cents.

 

[aewanabe]

Listen up everyone, he is right. Places like Ram air, flight express, package express are a waste of time. I also had to learn the hard way and get ripped off and lied to at the same time. I wish I had gone to one of these places like some of my buddies did. I am now way behind the career power curve.

Wrong. Don't spend years there but even with a short stint you will gain judgement, maturity, and experience that you don't get from yanking gear and listening to your IPOD. Then when you upgrade in a few years and are sitting next to the frosted-hair backpack-wearing kid you'll have some experience to draw on when ******************** happens and the kid gets all wide-eyed and says "they never showed us that at Flight Safety in the sim"!

 

[Goose Egg]

Devil's advocate...

Good advice, and I agree with just about everything, but I have a couple questions, and forgive me if it displays my insolence or my youthful naivety: If Eagle will hire me at 800/100, and Horizon will hire me with 1000/100, why shouldn't I just go there now? Why would I want to go from making ~$40k as a Colgan Captain to $20k as an Eagle FO? Why not just get those lean years out of the way early? If I went to Eagle or Horizon, I'd have one lean year. If I went to Colgan and then to Eagle, I'd have a total of three.

Now, with that said, I think going from Colgan to a fractional or something like that would be a pretty good idea, but I'm not sure why you'd want to go back to a regional from there.

Not trying to stir the pot, but just wondering what you guys think. I think I know what you are going to say already, but I'm going to let you say it.

And it should be stated that I'm more than willing to pay dues. I've instructed for 3 years so far, and it's been about 6 years since I really started flyinig "for real," although I got my private about 12 years ago. And it should also be stated that I really don't care if I ever fly anything bigger than a corporate jet--I really don't have much interest in the majors--I find corporate/fractional flying a lot more interesting. I have my reasons for that, I guess, but I'm just trying to say that a non-SJS victim has these questions too.

-Goose

 

[Fly High]

if you want to suceed financially you need to stick with your first wife, first house, etc.

Awesome post Brother!

 

[acaTerry]

Wrong. Don't spend years there but even with a short stint you will gain judgement, maturity, and experience that you don't get from yanking gear and listening to your IPOD. Then when you upgrade in a few years and are sitting next to the frosted-hair backpack-wearing kid you'll have some experience to draw on when ******************** happens and the kid gets all wide-eyed and says "they never showed us that at Flight Safety in the sim"!

A-MEN!!

 

[AC560]

It is the corporate culture that is now the religion of this country. Get lots done as cheap as possible. Make money for majority stock holders. Funnel as much wealth close to the top as absolutely possible.

Fairly certain that has been the way of things since time began.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Fairly certain that has been the way of things since time began.

True. Social stratification has always been in place, even in the most primitive societies. Cast system or not, there is a natural pecking order and the money follows it upstream.

 

[n25na]

A-MEN!!

this post makes me want a delta charlie..mmmm

 

[Amish RakeFight]

this post makes me want a delta charlie..mmmm

I'd rather have a Bravo Juliet......

 

[Swaayze]

Goose Egg,

The problem with going to an Eagle or Horizon first, or even worse - too soon from a bottomfeeder, is that you will not be competitive for stepping up from there for many years. The reason you might want to leave a Colgan and take the pay cut is for QOL issues; perhaps you can live in a nicer city, have better bennies and fly nice equipment in a very professional environment where you can turn down a broken airplane or delay in the face of wx without fear of reprisal. 2nd year pay at the quality RJ operators will be darn close to 1900 or even Saab Captain pay at the bottom tier airlines.

In your case, not really that gung-ho for the majors, you'd probably be better off just finding a quality regional or fractional that has a base where you want to live and going there with the intention of staying. If you're low time and really want the fracs then any regional will probably do, or you should really hawk corporate jobs.

Good luck.

 

[CherryBomb]

Uh, don't go to Flexjet????

Whats wrong with the fractionals??? Whats wrong building your PIC time in a Biz jet as opposed to an RJ? The fractionals have a SUPERIOR quality of life and a SUPERIOR pay scale. We have guys that came from the airlines who hated the airline QOL, and not just the regional guys either...

Look at the new hires at Continental, UPS, etc. More and more guys are from the fracs...

 

[Goose Egg]

The problem with going to an Eagle or Horizon first, or even worse - too soon from a bottomfeeder, is that you will not be competitive for stepping up from there for many years.

That's pretty much what I thought you were going to say. And I think that my plan is to do something similar to what you are suggesting--not go right to a "jet" regional yet. Actually, it would be awesome if I could go straight from my "non-jet" job to a frac, but if I have to pay some dues in flying an RJ, then I guess I have to.

In your case, not really that gung-ho for the majors, you'd probably be better off just finding a quality regional or fractional that has a base where you want to live and going there with the intention of staying.

Once again, pretty similar to what I'm planning on, minus the "quality regional with the intention of staying." I'm sure being a captain at a good regional has its positives, but I have no intention of becoming a lifer.

In any case, thanks for your advice.

-Goose

 

[pilotyip]

Swaayze. I find your approach one of the most realistic I have seen posted concerning a pilot career. It fits with what I have been stating for year. It will take you approximately 10 years to get to a job that will allow you to start making QOL a goal in your job search. Pilots get hired at good places because they have Turbine PIC, you must build turbine PIC to have control over your career. You have to go wherever that job is that gets you turbine PIC. You stay in that job until you can get another job that gives you better turbine PIC, i.e. Bigger airplanes, Turbojet, 121, etc. It is called paying your dues everyone must do it. Some do it in the military, some do it at the regionals, and some do in the on-demand business. Everyone pays his or her dues.

 

[Swaayze]

Uh, don't go to Flexjet????

Whats wrong with the fractionals??? Whats wrong building your PIC time in a Biz jet as opposed to an RJ? The fractionals have a SUPERIOR quality of life and a SUPERIOR pay scale.

Absolutely nothing, but in the context of my original post I stand by the statement. As I said originally, this advice is for aspiring airline pilots who are young and unencumbered. My point is do not go somewhere "better" until you have the turbine PIC if you start at a bottomfeeder and can upgrade there fairly quickly. The FlexJets of the world are a definite step up from the lowball (probably almost all) regionals but I caution anyone on chasing QOL (or bigger/better airplanes or certain domiciles or even more money) too soon at the expense of getting that PIC, unless of course a FlexJet is your desired final destination.

 

[CopilotDoug]

You think just because you have your 2,000 hrs PIC you'll be able to pick and choose which mainline carrier you want to go to? Next thing you know, you're 50 years old and still working for Mesa, waiting for a lick of that brass ring over at SWA where you'll finish off as an FO. Sorry, you gotta pay bills whether you're flying for a dirt bag like Ornstein or raking it in at Emirates. Paying dues was a thing of the 90's. It's everyone for themselves in today's market. Get on with someone you can spend a career with and have a decent lifestyle. The only thing you're guaranteed when you sell your soul to Mesa or Colgan is that you're working for one dirtbag operation.

Plotting out your aviation career is like drawing a line on water.

 

[pilotyip]

Co doug how do you get on with someone decent without PIC time?

 

[GEORGE DUBYA]

You will never make it quit now.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Co doug how do you get on with someone decent without PIC time?

My point was, when given the choice between a second and first tier regional, go with the first tier because you'll make better cash. On the flipside, if the market goes tits up again, you're somewhat covered because you can end up making pretty decent money at places like Eagle, COex, Republic, et al.

The only thing you're guaranteeing yourself when you hire on with one of the bottom feeders is that you're taking the worst pay in the 121 world.

This is coming from me, a pretty staunch conservative in my decisions. Some people like taking risks like that, I don't. You don't like it, go suck a lemon.

***Not to single out Mesa and Colgan, but to also include Gulfstream, Great Mistakes, Regions, etc, etc, etc...

 

[30West]

My point was, when given the choice between a second and first tier regional, go with the first tier because you'll make better cash. On the flipside, if the market goes tits up again, you're somewhat covered because you can end up making pretty decent money at places like Eagle, COex, Republic, et al.

The only thing you're guaranteeing yourself when you hire on with one of the bottom feeders is that you're taking the worst pay in the 121 world.

This is coming from me, a pretty staunch conservative in my decisions. Some people like taking risks like that, I don't. You don't like it, go suck a lemon.

***Not to single out Mesa and Colgan, but to also include Gulfstream, Great Mistakes, Regions, etc, etc, etc...

I was with Colgan for 6 years. My soul is quite intact, last time I checked. My QOL was equal to or better in many ways compared to the SJS regionals. I was home every night and I was flying 34 seater for 34 seat pay.
But the bottom line is, it was what I made it. Put my time in and moved on, no regrets.

 

[pilotyip]

Lemons/Limes

Co doug, What are saying? What if a first tier is not available, should you sit on the sidelines instead of building time for your next job? How about when you are between jobs because your last airline just closed the doors, do you not take any job you can get while trying to find another good job? Worst pay is better than no pay while looking for the next job. BTW I like sucking on limes after I take them out of an empty Corona bottle, need taste.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Co doug, What are saying? What if a first tier is not available, should you sit on the sidelines instead of building time for your next job? How about when you are between jobs because your last airline just closed the doors, do you not take any job you can get while trying to find another good job? Worst pay is better than no pay while looking for the next job.

Are we still talking about aspiring airline pilots, YIP? Or furloughs and bankruptcies? Lets peel that orange on a different thread.

***Change in philosophy: If you can AFFORD going to a second tier airline, by all means. If you actually need the money...get on with an RJ operator.

Corona's pretty decent. I'm favoring our neighbor's to the north this month, just switched from Labatts to Moosehead
:beer:

 

[CopilotDoug]

Moderator, my word has been accepted as a Universal Truth. Please close this thread.

End Communication

 

[Goose Egg]

Hey Doug,

LOVE the avatar!

 

[Mud Eagle]

Paying dues was a thing of the 90's. It's everyone for themselves in today's market.

Uh, what?