CL-850 Crash Cont.

[Squanto]

Anybody have any new info on this? I heard it was owned by "Ford-Aero"....But not confirmed.....

 

[willNOTfly4free]

From yesterday's AIN Alert:

"A Challenger 850 crashed today attempting to take off in a snowstorm fromMoscow’s Vnukovo Airport on a ferry flight to Berlin for repairs. The three crewmembers aboard survived but were critically injured. The aircraft was 10 to 12 feet above the runway when it dropped, overturned and caught fire, according to early reports. Moscow-based Fort Aero operated the aircraft, N168CK."

 

[falconpilot]

Im glad the crew made it out ok. What is up with Challenger aircraft and frozen precip?!?!

 

[gutshotdraw]

Usually, a loose nut behind the wheel. De-ice, de-ice, de-ice. Especially with that wing,

 

[nfg2u]

Reports from NBAA Airmail say a/c was returning to Europe for engine mx.
Raises questions about engine problems..

 

[embpic1]

A good friend of mine flew that plane for an outfit in California. They just sold that plane to its new owners in Moscow late last year. It didnt take them long to kill it. Glad to hear everyone survived.

Here is a pic of it in better days.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?...FP&photo_nr=4&prev_id=1174201&next_id=0977240

 

[embpic1]

Here is a crash pic.

http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.1&disp=inline&view=att&th=110c07afebcf3e0e

 

[willNOTfly4free]

Here is a crash pic.

http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.1&disp=inline&view=att&th=110c07afebcf3e0e

Link doesn't work.

 

[embpic1]

Darn. I wasn't sure if it would work. How do you post a pic? I don't have the option on my post screen to do so.

 

[pilot error]

Darn. I wasn't sure if it would work. How do you post a pic? I don't have the option on my post screen to do so.

it'll work if you just give us your email address and password.

 

[embpic1]

it'll work if you just give us your email address and password.

great idea

 

[willNOTfly4free]

Try this link for the news report and pic:
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=87969a87-6657-4882-b44d-ee369bf1ef3d&k=67719

Dang, those Russian winters look cold!

 

[Dinger]

Im glad the crew made it out ok. What is up with Challenger aircraft and frozen precip?!?!

Funny thing about that wing....it doesn't like contamination....what a P.O.S. What good is an aircraft if you can't launch with snow/ice on the wing and save the boss the cost of paying for de-icing, isn't that what he is really paying you for?

 

[BoilerUP]

What good is an aircraft if you can't launch with snow/ice on the wing and save the boss the cost of paying for de-icing, isn't that what he is really paying you for?

Surely you cannot be serious.

 

[NW Flyer]

Don't call me surely!

 

[doublepsych]

Isn't a CL-850 a CRJ in exec interior trim? If so, does the CRJ wing share airfoils with a 601/604/604? Both/All are non LE device equipped, right?

Another question, how many corp guys ever get deice specific training? I know I never have in any corporate training program, it's just been some "OJT" with guys I'm flying with, and I have flown with some that obviously didn't know squat about ground deicing, like what a holdover time was, or the difference between type 1 or 4 (former fighter pilot). Not necessarily their fault, just making the point that if you've never been trained, you won't know, and for a lot of pt 91 guys, I don't know that they ever get trained. Thoughts?

 

[hawkerjet]

Although NASA has a pretty good video regarding effects of icing on aircraft, Transport Canada has a more thorough program regarding icing conditions. Heres a link to a training program I thought was excellent.
http://shop.tc.gc.ca/TChtml/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?item=43029

 

[nfg2u]

My first De-Ice training was scraping an 1/2 inch of ice of the wing of my single engine cessna with a postal tag that I cut off the mail I was delivering in the bush of Alaska. Boy does that sound scary now! I launched back into it to trying to stay below it at 400'. I made it home alive though and learned how stupid I was! Well that was a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.......

Actually with all the "Ice" related accidents in the last few years I can't believe that there is any lack of training. If your heading into "Northern Territories" even if your not offered training its up to you to make sure you know what to do!! They never blame anyone else do they.

My rule of thumb is any type of freezing contaminate large or small, slick or rough gets the De-Ice truck on its way! be conservative and live to fly another day! The cost is nill compared to an accident or loss of life.

 

[jonjuan]

Who said the crash was due to the lack of de-icing? Did I miss something?

 

[ultrarunner]

Isn't a CL-850 a CRJ in exec interior trim? If so, does the CRJ wing share airfoils with a 601/604/604? Both/All are non LE device equipped, right?

Yep, a CRJ-200 airframe. Can't speak as to the airfoil commonality to the Challengers you mention other than to say none of those series, including the 850 have LED's.

 

[ultrarunner]

Who said the crash was due to the lack of de-icing? Did I miss something?

You didn't miss anything....not yet........

 

[Dinger]

Surely you cannot be serious.

No, I was not serious....just a little sarcasm. As a fellow Boiler, I would never disgrace our PU brethren with even considering operating in icing conditions without the "love juice" on the wing!

As was said before....."Live to fly another day"!

 

[BoilerUP]

I'm just glad somebody got the Airplane! reference.
:beer:

 

[Dinger]

Isn't a CL-850 a CRJ in exec interior trim? If so, does the CRJ wing share airfoils with a 601/604/604? Both/All are non LE device equipped, right?

Another question, how many corp guys ever get deice specific training? I know I never have in any corporate training program, it's just been some "OJT" with guys I'm flying with, and I have flown with some that obviously didn't know squat about ground deicing, like what a holdover time was, or the difference between type 1 or 4 (former fighter pilot). Not necessarily their fault, just making the point that if you've never been trained, you won't know, and for a lot of pt 91 guys, I don't know that they ever get trained. Thoughts?

Fortunately, I cut my teeth on serious winter ops at the airlines. The training was good and I learned that knowledge is power.

I know that FSI was offering a winter ops course (half day) when I was at an initial course a year or so ago. You should call and see if they have any literature they could send you for in-house training/self study in your flight department. Better yet, see if you can sign up for it if you head off to recurrent.

 

[svcta]

I've got a reasonable amount of time in that type.....just before I quit flying it our ops specs changed to actually getting out of the airplane and doing a tactile check of the wing surface before launching(if there was a line after de-icing). That wing will NOT carry contamination of any kind. My sim instructor at bombardier actually told me that there was a device that would measure off a certain amount of leading edge in which there was a limitation for smashed bugs, even. No kidding. Keep that thing clean.

 

[Squanto]

Originally Posted by doublepsych
Isn't a CL-850 a CRJ in exec interior trim? If so, does the CRJ wing share airfoils with a 601/604/604? Both/All are non LE device equipped, right?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The CL's all have "hot wings" (bleed air).....great airplane, wide cockpit.... but you just have to deice....its a super critical wing...Doesn't like ice.

 

[taiar]

The skipper on that flight is a freind of mine. He was pulled out of the burning plane as the media stated, but he is in a comma.

Please keep him in your prayers, and do not jump the gun as why it went down. Lets wait until the facts are out.

He was a 121 Capt. on the CRJ and operated in the mid west and very well versed in winter ops.

Again, please keep him in your prayers for a full recovery.

Thank you.

-T

 

[honeycomb]

I know the guy....and this Mid-West operation is actually a well known operation called Peeeeeeknuckle airlines out of Memphis.

 

[Beechjetr]

Ya Know, I'll jump on the boat about the lack of training of deice ops in the corp world. Honestly, I learned about de/anti ice procedures in college, and it has paid off. I have taught fellow pilots with WAY more time and years in the industry than me about how to go about a proper deice/anti ice (type 1 and 4).

Flight Safety, International, ICT will set you up in the sim at the end of rwy 33 in KASE with +SN and a temp of -3. They'll make a big deal about the LINDZ DP, 2nd segment, MTOW...

I have NEVER had any instructor at FSI ask me about what "fluids" we had apllied, who ordered it, a HOT, etc.

It is a HUGE gap in training (winter ops) at FSI.

But hey, as long as the instructors as FSI get to "check off all their boxes"...

 

[X man]

Don't call me surely!

Would Shirley be OK?:beer: (hehehe)