US Regional pilots are suckers?

[JoeMerchant]

Rez O Lewshun, no doubt management has made mistakes and is partially responsible. However to claim that unions are totally innocent is naive. You are very well versed in union history and isssues, so I am sure you are aware of the term "feather bedding". Sometimes unions can be counter productive when they use "feather bedding" such as was done with firemen on diesel locomotives, or flight engineers on the 737 and MD 80. Those two moves rank right up there with some of the bone headed managment moves. Sometimes I see a lot of similarities in union leadership and management.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez O Lewshun, no doubt management has made mistakes and is partially responsible. However to claim that unions are totally innocent is naive. You are very well versed in union history and isssues, so I am sure you are aware of the term "feather bedding". Sometimes unions can be counter productive when they use "feather bedding" such as was done with firemen on diesel locomotives, or flight engineers on the 737 and MD 80. Those two moves rank right up there with some of the bone headed managment moves. Sometimes I see a lot of similarities in union leadership and management.....

Agreed!

The unions job is to protect jobs... so when the diesel loco came along and 'firemen' were to be laid off...what should the union do? same with crew complement....

Shouldn't management have an interest in those employees or should they simply tell FE's to hit the street? Maybe the company didn't care so the union was forced to come up with "B737 engineers"

Like any relationship it takes two.... however when one has no concern what expectations can we place on the other?

Other bone head union moves...

PATCO Strike...

APA's sick out

TWU NYC strike...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Agreed!

The unions job is to protect jobs... so when the diesel loco came along and 'firemen' were to be laid off...what should the union do? same with crew complement....

Shouldn't management have an interest in those employees or should they simply tell FE's to hit the street? Maybe the company didn't care so the union was forced to come up with "B737 engineers"

Like any relationship it takes two.... however when one has no concern what expectations can we place on the other?

Other bone head union moves...

PATCO Strike...

APA's sick out

TWU NYC strike...

But in a free market economy, our companies have to be competitive before we as a union can negotiate for more pay and better work rules. Mandating sleeping firemen in locomotives and flight engineers on two man aircraft doesn't help the company compete.

The RJ scope clauses are another example of bone headed union moves. This was designed to protect mainline jobs, but had the opposite effect as some carriers gained advantages over other carriers because of fleet flexibility.

You site SWA many times in defense of unions, but you leave out the part about SWA unions giving their management flexibility and not burdening them with unrealistic pension plans. This gave SWA a big advantage over the legacy carriers. The Southwest pilots, while unionized, have a better understanding of the post deregulation era than do many of the legacy union groups.

 

[saabservant]

Regional pilots are suckers because they get into this believing that mgmt and/or alpa(not a union) might have an interest in their career progression, when in fact, if alpa isn't doesn't throw them overboard, mgmt will.

 

[CMI]

And now for the rest of the story.....

Did you also notice that their 15 year 90 seat captain rate is $99 CAN. per hour and that they have a single rate just like Skywest. They obviously put more money into the the FO rates and took the money from the captain rates.

So now a the Bombardier CRJ705 holds 90 seats? How about 75 seats. Jazz pilots are not prostitutes, they let Air Canada fly the EMB 175 and EMB 190. Also, $99 an hour plus a 150% of pay over 85 hours a month, and $56.84 a day per diem. Seems like a good deal better than SkyPest 15 year captain pay.

The Bombardier CRJ705 offers airlines a new level of cabin comfort for a regional airline operations. The CRJ705 operated by Air Canada Jazz has 10 “Executive Class®” seats at 37” pitch and 65 “Hospitality Class®” seats at a spacious 34” pitch and is operated on routes normally operated by mainline narrowbody jets.

http://www.crj.bombardier.com/CRJ/en/description.jsp?langId=en&crjId=705

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

But in a free market economy, our companies have to be competitive before we as a union can negotiate for more pay and better work rules. Mandating sleeping firemen in locomotives and flight engineers on two man aircraft doesn't help the company compete.

Should we not acknowledge that the company has no concern for obsolete employees? At least the union did....

The RJ scope clauses are another example of bone headed union moves. This was designed to protect mainline jobs, but had the opposite effect as some carriers gained advantages over other carriers because of fleet flexibility.

no comment..

You site SWA many times in defense of unions, but you leave out the part about SWA unions giving their management flexibility and not burdening them with unrealistic pension plans. This gave SWA a big advantage over the legacy carriers. The Southwest pilots, while unionized, have a better understanding of the post deregulation era than do many of the legacy union groups.

Well, SWA is a non dereg operation...they do best in this environement. Back to my first response... SWA wouldn't furlough the fireman or the Flight Engineer.. they'd find employment, retrain, whatever it took... then the union would not have to go radical....

Have you read the SW Airlines Way?

If the legacy carriers came to the unions and said "let's work together to find a way to be competitive in the dereg world" I think the unions would go for it. The union's charter isn't to jack up the companies.

But it takes trust and respect. Again, something that SWA does with its unions. It isn't utopia over there but it is better than anything else...

Problem: as long as the legacy CEO's carve themselves out unreasonable compensation packages regardless of performance there will be limited trust.

At my company management won't leave paper stock for the printers cause they think the employees will steal it. So we run out and go to the forms drawer and print on the back side. Crews also press print 20x. When the paper tray is filled, 20 print jobs start...

What does that say about a company that can't trust its employees? Oh yeah..its the employees fault...

The RLA puts companies in control of thier airlines. Not the unions.

Your reply?

 

[JoeMerchant]

So now a the Bombardier CRJ705 holds 90 seats? How about 75 seats. Jazz pilots are not prostitutes, they let Air Canada fly the EMB 175 and EMB 190. Also, $99 an hour plus a 150% of pay over 85 hours a month, and $56.84 a day per diem. Seems like a good deal better than SkyPest 15 year captain pay.

According to the Bombardier website, they are essentially the same size aircraft. The length is the same, the width is the same, and the gross wt. is only 250 lbs. difference. Skywest will fly them with 76 seats. The 15 yr. Jazz rate converts to $83.79 US. Justify it all you want, but it isn't a very good captain rate......

 

[Hawkster54]

CMI is entirely correct....in the now.

There was a time when pilots could climb the ladder in the regionals and get hired on by one of the majors, but times have changed.

As long as there are pilots willing to whore themselves out to management, then the lower wages will continue. Period.

These so called "unions" are choking on themselves. When push came to shove management talked all the union reps into playing dead and because of this they have compromised the entire industry.

Todays regional pilots are acting like a bunch of whores. Grow some stones and demand some livable wages (and I'm not including your mommy and daddy's money that supports the zit popper who only cares about flying a shiny piece of ******************** RJ). If it takes an industry strike, so be it.

Something needs to be done because the industry wage standard is going down then tubes, and guess who has the most blood on their hands? I'd have to go with today's regional pilots.....what a bunch of suckers!

CMI, you said what all of us NON-regional pilots are thinking. My hats off you you SIR...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeMerchant
But in a free market economy, our companies have to be competitive before we as a union can negotiate for more pay and better work rules. Mandating sleeping firemen in locomotives and flight engineers on two man aircraft doesn't help the company compete.

Should we not acknowledge that the company has no concern for obsolete employees? At least the union did....

Obsolete employees need to take other jobs. Artificially creating spots for them is not the answer. Adapt or die....

The RJ scope clauses are another example of bone headed union moves. This was designed to protect mainline jobs, but had the opposite effect as some carriers gained advantages over other carriers because of fleet flexibility.

no comment..

why no comment....


You site SWA many times in defense of unions, but you leave out the part about SWA unions giving their management flexibility and not burdening them with unrealistic pension plans. This gave SWA a big advantage over the legacy carriers. The Southwest pilots, while unionized, have a better understanding of the post deregulation era than do many of the legacy union groups.

Well, SWA is a non dereg operation...they do best in this environement. Back to my first response... SWA wouldn't furlough the fireman or the Flight Engineer.. they'd find employment, retrain, whatever it took... then the union would not have to go radical....

Your reply?

And their union does better in this environment. The SWA pilots union is for changing the age 60 rule. I bet the SWA pilots union would not have agreed with putting FEs on the 737 jumpseat. The SWA pilots union has adapted better than ALPA....
__________________

 

[check6]

They do have great beer.

 

[Flyer1015]

Wow.

This thread has squawked 7500!

 

[n32jk]

I use sarcasm!

You made my point for me junior

 

[CMI]

It looks like Jazz is hiring, so if you qualify you can fly a regional jet for good first year pay. At least you will not have to live in a crash pad with 6 other dudes.



http://jobs.workopolis.com/jobshome...2&pi_sort=POST_DATE&pi_curjob=10&pi_maxjob=19

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

They do have great beer.

Canadian beer sucks... I switched to Guinness the first night... but that is just me...

 

[insomniac99]

CMI is entirely correct....in the now.

There was a time when pilots could climb the ladder in the regionals and get hired on by one of the majors, but times have changed.

As long as there are pilots willing to whore themselves out to management, then the lower wages will continue. Period.

These so called "unions" are choking on themselves. When push came to shove management talked all the union reps into playing dead and because of this they have compromised the entire industry.

Todays regional pilots are acting like a bunch of whores. Grow some stones and demand some livable wages (and I'm not including your mommy and daddy's money that supports the zit popper who only cares about flying a shiny piece of ******************** RJ). If it takes an industry strike, so be it.

Something needs to be done because the industry wage standard is going down then tubes, and guess who has the most blood on their hands? I'd have to go with today's regional pilots.....what a bunch of suckers!

CMI, you said what all of us NON-regional pilots are thinking. My hats off you you SIR...

I agree completely

 

[Black Hawk]

The responsibility for all this belongs entirely to mainline pilots and their unions who allowed oursourcing of pilot jobs in the first place. It's been downhill ever since. The internet gets an assist for spurring competition and lowering ticket prices.

 

[doh]

The law and the administrations in Europe favor unions.

I'm not so sure they favor unions per se, but rather social harmony. They try a little harder than we do to bring workers to a higher standard of living. I don't think everything they do is sustainable in terms of social welfare, but they do attempt to keep workers from falling futher and further behind management.

 

[insomniac99]

The responsibility for all this belongs entirely to mainline pilots and their unions who allowed oursourcing of pilot jobs in the first place. It's been downhill ever since. The internet gets an assist for spurring competition and lowering ticket prices.

whoever allowed this to happen should be beaten with a wet noodle!

 

[Hawkster54]

I believe it was American Airlines who allowed management to start Eagle because the pilots of that era thought they were above flying props. If my resources serve me right, AA mgmt was willing to pay mainline pilots their standard wages but they were going to have to give up their sleek jets for props...AA pilots said no way and mgmt said fine we'll find zit poppers to do it for a fraction of the wages, and that's what they did. AMR (the pimp) created Eagle (the whore house) and they recruited desparate pilots (the whores) to do the dirty work AA pilots wouldn't.

Of course most of the AA pilots who allowed this are all retired, and most of the original whores from Eagle are now in mgmt at Eagle, or representing ALPA at Eagle, or some did the flow through to AA only to get furloughed and sent back to pilot purgatory, while the rest of AA took a precident setting 23% paycut.

I think that's how the snow ball started....in a nut shell

 

[CMI]

I believe it was American Airlines who allowed management to start Eagle because the pilots of that era thought they were above flying props. If my resources serve me right, AA mgmt was willing to pay mainline pilots their standard wages but they were going to have to give up their sleek jets for props...AA pilots said no way and mgmt said fine we'll find zit poppers to do it for a fraction of the wages, and that's what they did. AMR (the pimp) created Eagle (the whore house) and they recruited desparate pilots (the whores) to do the dirty work AA pilots wouldn't.

Of course most of the AA pilots who allowed this are all retired, and most of the original whores from Eagle are now in mgmt at Eagle, or representing ALPA at Eagle, or some did the flow through to AA only to get furloughed and sent back to pilot purgatory, while the rest of AA took a precident setting 23% paycut.

I think that's how the snow ball started....in a nut shell

This sounds about right to me. AMR has been the most successful at creating an A & B pilot pay scale since they created American (A-scale) and Eagle (B-scale). AMR had tried to make an A & B scale on American Mainline however, that did not work when you had more B's than A's in one seniority pool. So AMR had to create two separate companies. And the prostituting continues, when American got rid of the F-100's they replace their routes with CRJ-700, and not MD-80's. And they pay the CRJ-700 pilots a lot less.