NWA breaking promise to junior pilots

[nwaredtail]

NWA has informed the NWA MEC that it is NOT going to target the Defined Contribution Fund as previously agreed to, thus screwing every junior pilot at NWA and adding more money to the senior pilots.

The TA "sales job" was sold with the provision that 6 months after exiting BK, the DC contribution would be targeted to 50% Final average earnings so that people who had a full frozen pension would probably get 0% into a DC funds and people who had a small frozen benefit would get between 8-15% depending on age, years of service ect. Right now the senior folks basically have 60% Final average earnings. So even the 50% target was below what the senior guys got.

NOW, NW wants to keep the 5% going to everyone, thus ruining the chance of anypilot hired after 1990 to get any type of meaningful retirement. Senior pilots get a 5% bonus plus a full retirement plus the large equity claim (BTW, The equity claim could have been biased toward the junior folks to make them whole, but it was settled last month and then miraculously, this gem came up. Smells moral huh?)

Here's the figures:

747 Captain: 120,000 year pension (worth 3 million), 100-200k excess fund, 55000 DC funds over 5 years, 200k claim sale. Total -3.45 million

A320 Captain, 96000 year pension(worth 2 million), no excess fund, 75000 dc funds, 180k claim sale. total - 2.25 million

757 F0, 21600 pension in todays dollars(worth 650K), no excess fund, 550k DC fund, 150k claim sale. total = 1.35 million

3 times the retirement for screwing your fellow union pilots.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Do you have a source for this?

I haven't seen any announcement that the Targeted DC is not going to be implemented.

 

[BoilerUP]

Senior pilots screwing junior pilots? Say it ain't so...

And some wonder why young pilots want to keep the "archaic" Age 60 rule...

 

[nwaredtail]

no official announcement yet, but I am sure you have heard the rumblings.......

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The irony on the whole situation is NWA still has a retirement plan.

 

[Occam's Razor]

no official announcement yet, but I am sure you have heard the rumblings.......

Here's what you posted:

"NWA has informed the NWA MEC that it is NOT going to target the Defined Contribution Fund as previously agreed to, thus screwing every junior pilot at NWA and adding more money to the senior pilots."

I have not heard that, and I don't think the decision to target - or not target - is their's. We're doing the same thing DAL is doing, and something that has been done elsewhere.

"The TA "sales job" was sold with the provision that 6 months after exiting BK, the DC contribution would be targeted to 50% Final average earnings so that people who had a full frozen pension would probably get 0% into a DC funds and people who had a small frozen benefit would get between 8-15% depending on age, years of service ect."

NWA management did not run the roadshows or council meetings where the DC plan was presented. Your post indicated NWA management decided to change the Plan. Now you're saying it's linked to a "sales job" done by ALPA?

Do you understand that your claim doesn't make sense? If it's something management has decided to do...why are you accusing ALPA of "selling out" the junior pilots?

Based just on the facts we know, the MEC created a Targeted DC Plan to give more money to junior pilots. I think that was a good choice by ALPA. What do you think?

Now you tell us NWA management isn't planning on honoring that plan. If that speculation is true, I predict ALPA will take action against it. What do you think?

You also opined: "Senior pilots get a 5% bonus plus a full retirement plus the large equity claim (BTW, The equity claim could have been biased toward the junior folks to make them whole, but it was settled last month and then miraculously, this gem came up. Smells moral huh?)"

1. Senior pilots also get more vacation, better schedules, and earn more per hour than junior guys. I don't think that is unprecedented or unique to NWA. I've always understood it's better to be senior than junior, and for more than one reason. Suggesting that senior pilots are being unfair because they have earned more than junior pilots smacks of whining.
2. The equity claim was based on what we lost in the contract. The allocation of the claim was based on what we lost in the contract. Where's the fire? Why should it have been "biased toward junior folks"? How much of the concessionary "give" in the new contract was based on Pension savings to NWA? [Hint: Rhymes with "hero"]
3. At the time the Tageted Plan was approved by the MEC the Defined Benefit Pension Plan was not in "safe harbor". Technically, it still isn't. Hence the decision to make the DC flat-rate for all pilots until exiting Chapter 11. As the R&I Committee and your reps explained, that puts the Pension in the safest harbor we can reasonably expect to see in the next several years. Until then, those depending more on the DB than the DC (the "senior" folks you speak of) have more risk than the junior folks. Even if you don't like it, it's still true.

 

[xjhawk]

our great ALPA, i once thought that management's saying was "I've got mine" now i have come to realize that ALPA is just one more form of management....the senior guys who run ALPA also go with that "I've got mine". I believe the same thing is happening over at J with our claim. The old avro pilots who were making 85 and up grand a year are going to get the majority of the claim (not yet announced, but the writing os on the wall). Oh and by the way, that same group who is claiming such a hardship is still collecting avro pay even though they are flying the saab (because of one junior guy who was trained late on the saab). So they will go right from the avro pay to the 76 seat crj pay. 5.5% difference and they will get thousands more than what I will get......nice....thanks alpa!

 

[XJohXJ]

......

 

[Dizel8]

NWA screwing pilots, wow, that is a new one!

 

[Diesel-9]

Source PLEEEZ? Think the company contributes a percentage of payroll each year.Starting at current 5% to 8% or something. Increases 1% a year from the company. They don't care how it is distributed. Up to the MEC to determine targeted rate so I doubt NWA cares or said this.

 

[Whine Lover]

"NWA breaking promise to junior pilots"

I told my first Girlfriend I wouldn't do something in her mouth....The funniest part was:

SHE BELIEVED ME!

SUCKER.

( pun intended )


Well, I guess we ALL "live and learn" right?

Sometimes, I wonder about Airline Pilots though....


YKW

 

[nwaredtail]

Once again, the "redheaded" step children of NWA decided that they didn't like the fact that they would not get their 5% DC in addition to their full pension, claim, excess fund, etc so they got an attorney to go over to HDQ and threaten a EEOC lawsuit over age discrimination.

NWA then tells the MEC that 'MAYBE" this has merit. Now the MEC has to spend dues money and time convincing NWA managament the targeting the DC plan iks legal (like at Aloha,Delta originally) The MEC will do the right thing, but once again, a few asswipes causing problems.

So, you few are correct. It's not NWA, it's a few, greedy redbook pilots.

 

[Fly4hire]

Once again, the "redheaded" step children of NWA decided that they didn't like the fact that they would not get their 5% DC in addition to their full pension, claim, excess fund, etc so they got an attorney to go over to HDQ and threaten a EEOC lawsuit over age discrimination.

NWA then tells the MEC that 'MAYBE" this has merit. Now the MEC has to spend dues money and time convincing NWA managament the targeting the DC plan iks legal (like at Aloha,Delta originally) The MEC will do the right thing, but once again, a few asswipes causing problems.

So, you few are correct. It's not NWA, it's a few, greedy redbook pilots.

You get a Gold Star for critcal analysis redtail :bomb: Probably the same players who are keeping the R/G arbitration going to call the 787 a replacement aircraft.

 

[AA717driver]

Occam--You don't get it. You're supposed to get out of "their" seat and hand over "their" pension.

Move along old man. TC

 

[Golden Falcon]

Thats what you get for 25+ years at a company..some guy sitting next to you who wants to screw you out of everything you worked for...mmmm....kinda like being married huh?

 

[m80drvr]

Ahhh yes and the Delta boys cannot wait to merger with NWA cause Parker is a "jerk". Hey general, I hope you get your merger and NWA's labor friendly management.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

TC,

Occam is not the problem. He is about mid seniority, a targeted plan will help him tremendously. The problem is the guys who have been widebody capts. since thier mid to late 40s(out of seniority) due to the Roberts award and have frozen pensions ranging from roughly 8000/month to over 10000/month. The contract around our necks was sold to the membership with the promise of a targeting of the DC money to those of us with less than 50% frozen benefit DB to get us a 50% benefit under the new and improved bankrupt payrates. So you can see what we have here is guys hired in the mid 80s that due to the fencing of the republic pilots off of the widebodies leapfrogged in seniority have large frozen benefits but still want a large bite of the apple that was supposed to be our little apple. It is pure greed and if they are successful in this I hope we can get the company to file another 1113c or whatever and ********************can the frozen DB to the PBGC, as more than half of the list is under the PBGC max.

 

[Fly4hire]

Thats what you get for 25+ years at a company..some guy sitting next to you who wants to screw you out of everything you worked for...mmmm....kinda like being married huh?

The fact is it was part of a negotiated package that was absolutely crucial to the passage of the TA, which was sold by the MEC as crucial to getting pension legislation. The TA never would have passed were it not for this targeted DC piece.

Let's not forget the goal was 50% FAE for the targeted DC for the junior pilots on 40% reduced salary, while those who currently have 25/25th or more have it at 60% FAE on 100% of pre-concession pay plus the excess.

To take this away now, after the TA is passed, and equity distribution has been determined will rip this MEC and pilot group apart, which is why I'm sure NWA managment was happy to listen to the whisperings in thier ear from those who are whining about age discrimination over the DC plan.

The really sad thing is these individuals have no care whatsoever for what they leave behind so long as they get thiers. Shameful beyond words.

 

[hoover]

NOW, NW wants to keep the 5% going to everyone, thus ruining the chance of anypilot hired after 1990 to get any type of meaningful retirement.

With the kind of money there were (and are) making, they should be able to plan their own retirement.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam is not the problem. He is about mid seniority, a targeted plan will help him tremendously.

I'm exactly in the middle of the list, and as far as I've been able to calculate, the Targeted Plan will neither help nor hurt me.

The problem is the guys who have been widebody capts. since thier mid to late 40s(out of seniority) due to the Roberts award and have frozen pensions ranging from roughly 8000/month to over 10000/month.

I disagree that the results of the Robert's Award are the problem. The problem was and is pilots who believe they have a "birthright" to certain flying either through their "source" airline...or serendipity. Everyone has understood for 20-years what the Award did...and where it would leave them when it ended. He gave Red guys the big jets and no seniority, and he gave the Green guys seniority but a 20-year wait to use it. That's what happens when you choose a third party to settle your issues. I'm tired of hearing residual whining from Red guys, Green guys, and my fellow Blue guys about this.

The contract around our necks was sold to the membership with the promise of a targeting of the DC money to those of us with less than 50% frozen benefit DB to get us a 50% benefit under the new and improved bankrupt payrates.

I don't think the new contract was "sold". I think 100% of us thought it sucked, but 64% of us thought it was better than the alternative. As I wrote above, the Targeted Plan was a "neutral" to me. It had zero impact on my decision. I'll concede that I don't know how it influenced others, but if your thesis is correct, the Targeted Plan would have made senior Red and Green guys vote AGAINST the deal to ensure they got a full share of the DC...and I don't think they did. Do you?

So you can see what we have here is guys hired in the mid 80s that due to the fencing of the republic pilots off of the widebodies leapfrogged in seniority have large frozen benefits but still want a large bite of the apple that was supposed to be our little apple.

Agree. There are a few that are very vocal about their "due" in this matter. That's cool. Remember, 12.5% of this pilot group voted against the largest pay raise in the last 30-years, negotiated at a time when other airlines were going bankrupt and/or taking huge cuts. There's no telling what those zany pilots will do!

It is pure greed and if they are successful in this I hope we can get the company to file another 1113c or whatever and ********************can the frozen DB to the PBGC, as more than half of the list is under the PBGC max.

I know you're not serious, but I take your point. I don't think now is the time to go to DEFCON 1. The process will work itself out. The voices of the nincompoops will fade as we move forward.

 

[Fly4hire]

I don't think now is the time to go to DEFCON 1. The process will work itself out. The voices of the nincompoops will fade as we move forward.

Let's hope so. If not it will be past DEFCON1 to MAD......

 

[Occam's Razor]

Let's hope so. If not it will be past DEFCON1 to MAD......

Ha! Ha! You're probably right!

I'm not worried about the claims of the folks who're trying to extend elements of the Robert's Award. They filed prior to the deadline, so they have a right to an arbitration.

And after the arbitrator has patted them on thier pointy little heads and told them, "nice try...but NO!", they'll relax. If not, I wish them painful ulcers fretting about it.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Much as I agree with Occam usually, he understates the junior/senior angst.

The junior pilots have been getting "gotcha" after "gotcha" month after month as the new a$$ wipe they call a contract goes into force. There have been more than a few "gee, we didn't think that was important" issues that have landed squarely on top of the mid-seniority and lower pilots.

The "yes" voters tried to keep the pension out of it until the last minute, because the Wilson polling came back saying that the TA was going into a smoking hole. Then the spinmeisters came out and started the hard sell. Stuff like "the pension legislation depends on us showing our cooperation" and "the senior guys will remember this" and most certainly "the DC will be targeted!"

Even before the ink was dry on the pension legislation, the "redheaded" pilots have been trying to backpedal from this agreement. If this comes to pass (and it's a big if) I think this issue will cause outright junior/senior war. It will be ugly.

Nu

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Nu,

I have spoken with 3 reps and all report that the targeting is going as planned and the mec, negt.cmte and company are on the same page. Hopefully this is just a rumor or wish from some of the usual characters that always seem to cause problems.

Cobra

 

[Occam's Razor]

Much as I agree with Occam usually, he understates the junior/senior angst.

Mebbe. I'm right in the middle of the list, so I'm senior to half the pilots...and junior to half the pilots.

So, am I junior or senior in the discussions about a potential Seniority List Death Match? I need to know so I can buy my team jersey before the prices spike.

The junior pilots have been getting "gotcha" after "gotcha" month after month as the new a$$ wipe they call a contract goes into force. There have been more than a few "gee, we didn't think that was important" issues that have landed squarely on top of the mid-seniority and lower pilots.

And there have been a few "Gee, I didn't think that money was real!" comments too. Things are seldom as good or as bad as we first think.

What specific issues are you referring to that have been dropped on the "mid-seniority and lower pilots"? I'm one of them dudes, and I'm interested in hearing about them.

The "yes" voters tried to keep the pension out of it until the last minute, because the Wilson polling came back saying that the TA was going into a smoking hole. Then the spinmeisters came out and started the hard sell. Stuff like "the pension legislation depends on us showing our cooperation" and "the senior guys will remember this" and most certainly "the DC will be targeted!"

I agree that I heard the rhetoric about the Pension Reform legislation being tied to the contract vote. After I heard that at the first MSP Roadshow, I called my congressman (Kline) and both of my Senators (Dayton, Coleman). The staffers I spoke with all told me it would be tougher to get the votes to pass the legislation if the prime beneficiaries of the bill (NWA pilots) didn't agree to a contract. [Note: Each had their own spiel...I'm paraphrasing their replies here] So I guess I heard it...but it didn't sway my vote.

I don't recall hearing any "senior" pilots threatening to remember it if the contract was voted-down. I did hear a few reminders of the strike we waged in '98 to kill the B-Scale...which didn't affect the "senior" guys...but I wouldn't characterize those comments as threats. It was discussion.

Even before the ink was dry on the pension legislation, the "redheaded" pilots have been trying to backpedal from this agreement. If this comes to pass (and it's a big if) I think this issue will cause outright junior/senior war. It will be ugly.

I've heard the beef expressed by the RBMC. I don't think it has any merit...but I do know it is entitled to a hearing! To suggest otherwise is to set a dangerous precedent that could bite us in the hiney if/when we find ourselves in another merger.

If there is a "junior/senior war", can I have the Maalox concession at NATCO?

 

[NuGuy]

So, am I junior or senior in the discussions about a potential Seniority List Death Match? I need to know so I can buy my team jersey before the prices spike.

If there is a "junior/senior war", can I have the Maalox concession at NATCO?

I would actually find this quite amusing...I think I would pay cash money to watch RO and KW go at it. The main event would be TW and SC. Halftime entertainement could be provided by RB/GB mudwrestling.

Unfortunately, due to last year's "NWA Management Smackdown", most of our best talent is still in traction.

I don't recall hearing any "senior" pilots threatening to remember it if the contract was voted-down. I did hear a few reminders of the strike we waged in '98 to kill the B-Scale...which didn't affect the "senior" guys...but I wouldn't characterize those comments as threats. It was discussion.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant this in a good way, in saying that the senior guys would remember that we had all made sacarifces to make this happen, and than when came time, they'd support the junior pilot issues (scope, targeted plan, etc). Unfortunately, it appears that some of those guys are getting up there in years, and the old memory isn't what it was.

I could list forever the junior pilot issues: Malfunctioning PBS, crappy hotels, miserable working conditions, no food, LONG DAYS, short nights...

To be honest, I could even care less about the seniors double dipping of the %5 DC fund, but they could A) at least fess up and recognize it and B)
press on with their short remaining years while the rest of us try to put the pieces back together.

Nu

 

[swa737-700]

our great ALPA, i once thought that management's saying was "I've got mine" now i have come to realize that ALPA is just one more form of management....the senior guys who run ALPA also go with that "I've got mine". I believe the same thing is happening over at J with our claim. The old avro pilots who were making 85 and up grand a year are going to get the majority of the claim (not yet announced, but the writing os on the wall). Oh and by the way, that same group who is claiming such a hardship is still collecting avro pay even though they are flying the saab (because of one junior guy who was trained late on the saab). So they will go right from the avro pay to the 76 seat crj pay. 5.5% difference and they will get thousands more than what I will get......nice....thanks alpa!

Slowly and surely, one at a time, the epiphany that alpo sux and really does not stand for what a true union should do for it's members is taking hold. Finally folks are starting to "get it". Go review what alpo (and apa, and amr) did to the TWA pilots.