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Pay cuts coming ?

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flaps30

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Dow Jones Business News
Delta May Move for Talks With Union to Cut Pilot Costs
Wednesday February 5, 4:34 pm ET
By Nicole Harris, Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal


ATLANTA -- With UAL Corp. (NYSE:UAL - News) , US Airways Group Inc. and AMR Corp. (NYSE:AMR - News) aiming to slash labors costs, Delta Air Lines Inc.'s chief executive suggested for the first time that the No. 3 airline is moving toward talks with its pilots' union about cutting expenses.

Speaking at the Goldman Sachs Annual Transportation Conference, Leo F. Mullin said Delta was watching the moves of other airlines at it relates to labor costs. "We're hanging out there with a hugely expensive pilot contract," he said. "We're going to have to have some conversations to see what we can do about it. We'll see how those go."

Faced with an industrywide financial crisis made worse by the terrorist attacks of 2001 and the rise of low-fare competition, the nation's airlines have been trying to cut their costs. Delta's pilots currently fetch the highest pay in the industry but, as other airlines go to their labor groups for significant concessions, Delta faces pressure to do the same to remain competitive.

Mr. Mullin's statements come as Delta rivals such as United Airlines and US Airways, both operating under Chapter 11 bankruptcy-court protection, have already won wage concessions from key labor groups.

US Airways has cut its labor costs by more than $1 billion a year, or about 27%. Meanwhile, United is currently negotiating for $2.4 billion in labor savings, or a 34% reduction. That is on top of the interim wage cuts -- valued at $840 million on a yearly basis -- the carrier has already won. On Tuesday, AMR's American Airlines asked its unions to agree to permanently cut pay and benefits and revise work rules to lower costs by 25%, as the airline struggles to recover financially.

Delta has a considerable labor advantage over rivals because most of its workers are nonunion. As such, the airline is able to unilaterally impose changes in work rules, pay and benefits for its flight attendants and airport- gate agents without lengthy labor negotiations. But Delta's more than 9,000 pilots are represented by the Air Line Pilots Association. The airline and the union wrangled over its current contract in 2001, when ALPA threatened to strike and many pilots staged a job action. Under the contract, the pilots are slated to get a 4.5% raise in May.

Karen Miller, a spokeswoman for the Delta pilots union group, said Delta management hasn't yet approached the union to talk about concessions. "At this point we have received no request from management for concessions," she said. " We're always open to listening to management's concerns but, until they come to us with something specific, we're not going to speculate as to what they're planning."

A Delta spokesman declined to elaborate on Mr. Mullin's remarks.
 
I doubt any of the non ch-11 airlines will keep there present payscale or senority list. (Except Southwest or JetBlue)

When management comes to the pilots and wants you to fly for SW or JB wages, throw it back and tell your CEO's to make what the JB CEO makes... $200,000/year + stock options..(CNN Nov2002). I bet they would laugh in your face.. Anyone else want to jump in on that?
 
Please notice that Leo Mullin and Fred Reid are taking a 10% pay cut to their salary only---but last year each got well over $1mil in stock options. Also, Leo said only the pilots (unionized) would need a pay cut, and no other workforce (nonunion) would need a pay cut. If we were doing that bad, don't you think that EVERYONE would be taking a pay cut? Obviously Leo wants to show the nonunion people that he is trying to take care of them.
How about everyone chipping in? Leo wants to get free cuts, and that will not be easy when only the pilots and certain execs (who make a lot more--in options etc) take cuts. I think the pilots will eventually agree to some sort of cuts, as long as our brothers and sisters in other work forces join in somehow--and that includes ASA/Comair. Hey, it's only fair, right?

Bye Bye---General Lee:cool: :eek: ;) :confused:
 
General Lee said:
Please notice that Leo Mullin and Fred Reid are taking a 10% pay cut to their salary only---but last year each got well over $1mil in stock options. Also, Leo said only the pilots (unionized) would need a pay cut, and no other workforce (nonunion) would need a pay cut. If we were doing that bad, don't you think that EVERYONE would be taking a pay cut? Obviously Leo wants to show the nonunion people that he is trying to take care of them.
How about everyone chipping in? Leo wants to get free cuts, and that will not be easy when only the pilots and certain execs (who make a lot more--in options etc) take cuts. I think the pilots will eventually agree to some sort of cuts, as long as our brothers and sisters in other work forces join in somehow--and that includes ASA/Comair. Hey, it's only fair, right?

Bye Bye---General Lee:cool: :eek: ;) :confused:

Well........you can't have it both ways General. If ASA and Comair are not really part of DAL (like DALPA says) then why should we take a pay cut? We are both making money for DAL. If you want to put us on your list and if we get all mainline benefits, then I'll share the pain and take the same pay cut that you do. Sound fair?
 
Last edited:
With all the fanfare over Song and how successful its gonna be you need to negotiate an exchange for your pay cuts. Perhaps something like stock options & profit sharing. It's got to be a sure winner for the pilots. After reading all your posts in strong support of Song's business plan, you should see the hidden gold mine in that! :D
 
BLZR,

By the way, Delta cannot just change the pay scales. Everything has to be negotiated---we have a contract. (And any pay scale change will have a snapback----no doubt there---or it stays the same)

Delta's Execs --Leo and Fred---each made over $500,000 in Salary, plus another $1.2 million each in options---last year.

And remember, Delta lost a lot less than the other majors last quarter. We lost a total of $320mil, and $120mil of that was one of those one time charges---that supposedly don't come back. We knew in advance that this last quarter was our weakest. Our CFO believes that we will break even for the next three quarters--which is better than losses. We have more cash than anyone except Southwest, and another $5 billion we can mortgage. We put $65 million into Song, and another $30 million into new self-check-in kiosks (about 700 more) at major airports. Things are coming along fine at Delta--and we are adapting to the LCC threats, unlike most other Majors. AA lost close to $1Billion for the quarter, and UAL lost $1.5 billion ---or $500 million a month for three months. Now look again at Delta's $200 million loss (without the charge). We hedge fuel better than anyone--which will help during the Iraq war. We will be around after all of this, and probably buy up most of the pieces. I don't expect to see Jetblue or Southwest taxiing next to me in Rome anytime in the near future.

Bye Bye---General Lee:cool: :D
 
Speedbird,

We don't have to do anything--the payscale in the contract is not subject to force mejeur. We have the upper hand here. Notice that Leo Mullin is taking a paycut--salary only--and wants us to take one too. But, he said that no Non-union employees will have to take a cut. Hmmm. If we were doing that bad, wouldn't everyone have to take a cut? Why only union pilots and some Execs that will get the Board of directors to reinstate their wages a lot sooner than we would be able to. Anything we would negotiate will have a snapback---no doubt there. And, we have not been offered any options etc, but if we got the deal Leo and the boys get---I bet we would take it. Nothing has been asked of us yet, and we have not offered anything. I am sure we would take a cut, but as long as EVERYONE shared in it along with us---including ASA/Comair. Why not? It seems fair. I think we are doing a lot better than the other guys, and have less unions and far more flexibility than the other guys. We hedge fuel better than anyone else, and will ride this Iraq thing out. We will do well on Spring Breakers to FLA----from NE and thru ATL, and then summer will be around the corner. Jetblue will eventually feel the heat of Song, and then we'll see how we all do. By the way---I love the name of your new A320---Song sung blue. We'll see how everyone does when we get up to speed.

Bye Bye--General Lee:cool:
 
General Lee said:
Speedbird,

We don't have to do anything--the payscale in the contract is not subject to force mejeur. We have the upper hand here. Notice that Leo Mullin is taking a paycut--salary only--and wants us to take one too. But, he said that no Non-union employees will have to take a cut. Hmmm. If we were doing that bad, wouldn't everyone have to take a cut? Why only union pilots and some Execs that will get the Board of directors to reinstate their wages a lot sooner than we would be able to. Anything we would negotiate will have a snapback---no doubt there. And, we have not been offered any options etc, but if we got the deal Leo and the boys get---I bet we would take it. Nothing has been asked of us yet, and we have not offered anything. I am sure we would take a cut, but as long as EVERYONE shared in it along with us---including ASA/Comair. Why not? It seems fair. I think we are doing a lot better than the other guys, and have less unions and far more flexibility than the other guys. We hedge fuel better than anyone else, and will ride this Iraq thing out. We will do well on Spring Breakers to FLA----from NE and thru ATL, and then summer will be around the corner. Jetblue will eventually feel the heat of Song, and then we'll see how we all do. By the way---I love the name of your new A320---Song sung blue. We'll see how everyone does when we get up to speed.

Bye Bye--General Lee:cool:

Again General, why should ASA or Comair take a pay cut to "share the pain" when we are not (according to DALPA and ALPA) part of DAL. No gain, no pain.

I fully expect a pay raise in our next contract, not a pay cut.
 
Sleepy,

Ok, what? No gain, no pain? Well, who gives you your paychecks? Who is buying your new RJ's? Without Delta, you might not be feeding anyone right now and out of work. I know what you are saying though. I think one list would be fine, if you were stapled. If you and your senior guys could agree to that, then everything would be fine. Date of hire will not do at Delta. If you can live with that, then fine. When Delta comes out of this after the Iraq deal, we will be stronger. And when we eventually start hiring again, those of you at ASA will eventually benefit.


Bye Bye--General Lee:cool:
 
From the General...

When Delta comes out of this after the Iraq deal, we will be stronger.
We have the upper hand here
I think we are doing a lot better than the other guys
We hedge fuel better than anyone else,
We have more cash than anyone
Things are coming along fine at Delta--and we are adapting to the LCC threats, unlike most other Majors.
We will have 36 757's by the end of the year, providing more seats with better entertainment systems
we have more cash than anyone---and not losiong it as fast as AA
All I am saying is that Delta is not doing as bad as AA or UAL
The economy will eventually rebound, and the Iraq thing will be over quickly
Delta has more cash and mortgageable assets than almost anyone
Man, What are you smokin???
 
I guess CMR and ASA pilots are now Delta pilots after all, since they should get a pay cut too. Even though their divisions of Delta are doing better financially.

Scope the flying flowing DOWN, scope the profits flowing UP.

They got purchased directly into their pay cut already as a WO.



Keep paying your dues guys, someday you'll be REAL pilots and deserve mainline pay.


Signed, just another regional share-cropper
 
ASA and Comair are wholly owned companies operating as separate companies under the name Delta Connection, Inc. Each company maintains it's own 121 certificate and employee group to operate. When we all become employees without the descrimination of separate companies with a sole purpose to keep employee salaries below average... I'll gladly take a pay cut. Till then, any pay raise common to the "regional" standard is still a cut from what it should be.


I greatly support a one list system to help everyone.

Did I hear that DCI is responsible for 49% of all Delta travel?

What percentage will it take to realize that we are Delta pilots being extorted due to DALPA short sightedness.
 
General Lee said:
Sleepy,

Ok, what? No gain, no pain? Well, who gives you your paychecks? Who is buying your new RJ's? Without Delta, you might not be feeding anyone right now and out of work. I know what you are saying though. I think one list would be fine, if you were stapled. If you and your senior guys could agree to that, then everything would be fine. Date of hire will not do at Delta. If you can live with that, then fine. When Delta comes out of this after the Iraq deal, we will be stronger. And when we eventually start hiring again, those of you at ASA will eventually benefit.


Bye Bye--General Lee:cool:

I have no problem with a staple (with fences to protect us against furloughs for a few years). You guys had your chance with the PID, but for some reason blocked it. Had it been approved at the time I am sure that all ASA and Comair pilots would have been stapled with no job protections. Oh well, water under the bridge.
 
Here's a dumb question

I'm very new to the civilian side of flying and the union. I've heard the term stapled in the AA and now this thread. Can somebody explain what being stapled means when a one list is created? Thanks.
 
Re: Here's a dumb question

Falconjet said:
I'm very new to the civilian side of flying and the union. I've heard the term stapled in the AA and now this thread. Can somebody explain what being stapled means when a one list is created? Thanks.

A staple basically means that the pilots on the seniority list of the subsidiary carrier (Eagle, Comair, Mesaba, etc...) would be placed at the bottom of the seniority list of the mainline carrier. This seems to be the most likely scenario in any "onelist" proposal.

The other option would be DOH (Date Of Hire) integration. In a DOH merged list a 10 year Comair pilot would become senior to an 8 year Delta pilot. I think you can see why mainline pilots would resist something like this.

Hope that helps.
 
Dieterly and Sleepy,

Most of what the General says is correct. Delta is still in a strong position - relative to UAL and AA. After the Iraq situation improves, Delta will be in a great position. However, given that ASA and Comair are OWNED by Delta - shouldn't their employees suffer like other Delta entity employees? Sounds like the right thing to do...

Dieterly - your posting with all of General's questions is bizzare. I didn't see anything wrong with those statements. What is your point - and better yet, what are you smoking that disables your view of reality? Your posting added ZERO value.

Sleepy - your "gain" is employment at a subsidiary owned by a relatively stable parent company. If Delta goes down, Comair would likely suffer as well and your job could be in jeopardy. When any company is experiencing problems, all employees - including those at the subsidiary level - should shoulder some of the burden.

General Lee might be strong-willed and overly-enthusiastic about his job at times, but his arguments are rational.

Cheers
 
General,
I am in somewhat agreement on most of your post. I think one list would work - and yes 'stapled'. When this all came up a few years ago I queiried many crews while JS'ing to SLC and back. ALL were of the same thought that if one list was DOH there would be 'thousands' of senior CMR and ASA pilots displacing them out of the left seat which took 10 yrs or more to get to. I asked, nicely if they had actually looked at numbers of 10 yr or more captains at both places to see what kind of shift it would be.
The reply was no in all cases. Even if, and it would not happen in our lifetime, CMR and ASA lists were merged and then integrated by DOH, the result would have been MINIMAL change, NOBODY would have been pushed out of the left seat. Yes there would have been a slight ripple in bidding for a very short time, but when forcasted retirements were put into play on all lists, in less than 1 yr it would have been back to prior integration. I got this information from not only DAL crews but ASA and CMR as well.
Again, a moot point and this was prior 9/11. Over half of DAL crews I talked with about it, and most of they time, THEY brought it up, were for a one list, yes, stapled. But they were not aware of exactly what the numbers were at the time. As it is now, if that would have happened back then, I along with a great many ASA and CMR pilots would be on the street instead of the DAL crews.
Just information, not bashing or cracking the whip.
One list has pro's and cons anyway it goes.

yours in looking for revenue...
 
Heavy Set, I work for ASA, not Comair, but I agree that DAL's future is our future. I just think you DALPA guys like to have it both ways: When the economy is doing well ASA and Comair profits fund your generous pension (per Leo), when it is in the dumps you want us to take a pay cut just like you would.

Are we a seperate cpmpany, or the same company? If we are seperate, then why sould we take a pay cut when we are profitable? If we are the same company, then we need to integrate into one list and all enjoy the same risks and benefits. Which is it?
 
I don't know how to tell you this Sleepy, regardless of what Leo said, we had the same pension plan LONG before we bought you guys. If you want to take credit for funding it, fine, but we had no problem funding it for about 50 years before you guys were even an airline.

I do see your point, however, that all of us contribute to the bottom line.
 
FlyDeltasJets said:
I don't know how to tell you this Sleepy, regardless of what Leo said, we had the same pension plan LONG before we bought you guys. If you want to take credit for funding it, fine, but we had no problem funding it for about 50 years before you guys were even an airline.

I do see your point, however, that all of us contribute to the bottom line.

I know that the statement was made by Leo to divide us. I don't know whether it is true or not. It really doesn't matter where the money comes from, it all goes to the same place.
 

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