What would you do?

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

I was on an RJ a few weeks ago from AVL to CLT. We departed AVL @ 6am. This was before daylight and before the tower reopened. As we taxied out, I noticed there were no taxi or runway lights on. I kept expecting to see them come on at any second. The F/O made the announcement for the flight attendant to "prepare for leaving---I mean departure". I thought to myself, "Is this this guy's first flight?" As we took the runway, still no runway lights. As the engines powered up, I knew that I couldn't go running down the aisle yelling stop. They never clicked the lights on.

As soon as we taxied in at CLT, I called FSS and asked if they had any NOTAMS for AVL. I was told that the lights were pilot controlled during the hours the tower was closed. The taxiway lights were not NOTAMed out either.

I sat and waited for everyone else to deplane then approached the Captain as he stood there telling everyone ba bye. I asked if there was any particular reason we didn't have any runway lights on takeoff. He told me that there were no lights on the taxiway and the runway lights were pilot controlled. He looked at me kind of questionable and I told him that the taxi and runway lights are on the same circuit in AVL and that nothing ever came on. Then I said, "As many deer as we have around the airport, it's a good idea to use the lights." I told him to have a nice day and exited. I know the RJ has better lights than a freight train, but that's beside the point. As I walked off the plane, I'm sure the Captian saw my Flight Safety luggage tag on my computer backpack and thought I was some guy who wants his job.

Would anyone have handled this any differently?

BTW, this flight was NOT operated by US Airways Express or PSA--just in case you were wondering.

 

[BoilerUP]

deleted

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

Kind of narrows it down doesn't it?

 

[PGTB]

Lame.....

 

[Sig]

Ya know, one time we had a jumpseater in the back who was getting a ride home. It was mid-afternoon, we showed around 6:30 that morning, and we were all tired. This guy used to fly for us, but moved on to DC10s. He didn't have a lot of nice things to say about the company when he was schmoozing before push.

I didn't notice that when he deplaned, he went straight to ops.

About five minutes later, we got a call on cofreq and we were instructed to contact dispatch immediately.

This clown deplaned, walked into ops, and told them our FA was drunk.

Not only did he not mention it to us, he waited until he was well out of sight and on his merry way- after getting a ride home.

Nice delay. Thankfully, I have his face, name and employer memorized. I will be certain to voice my opinion of this doosh if he ever slinks out to a plane I'm driving in the future.

So, for all of you "Captains" out there that are represented on the release in invisible ink sitting in the back, by all means at least keep the underlings up front in the loop. That's good CRM from seat 5A.

The crew screwed up? Who knows? Did you survive the flight? My condolences to you if you were killed. It is a great loss to aviation.

I can't believe you called the FSS to check NOTAMs. Did it ever occur to you to just... I dunno, deplane?

 

[8HourPilot]

[FONT=&quot]With all due respect, you have to be kidding me.

How are the two (LEX/AVL) even related? I won't point out the obvious differences in the airports, which, quite frankly make your post something south of smart.

I know I always enjoy the random dude coming up front and acting like he had a better view from a side window, then we did while looking straight ahead.

NOTAMS are always current too, it seems as though they knew that the lights were pilot controlled. Also, I am curious. How are local Deer affected by the turning on/turning off of runway lights? Up here in Michigan, they don't seem to discriminate between the two settings (on/off) or any step setting in between. Perhaps North Carolina deer are different, so I must say sir, you have me waiting with great anticipation.[/FONT]

 

[80for80]

I'd write a letter to his company listing all the pertinent details of the flight. I'd also report it to the appropriate FSDO for that airline. I'm sure the Feds would love to "chat" with that crew in the wake of the Comair crash.

 

[8HourPilot]

I would like you to undelete what you deleted.

deleted

 

[8HourPilot]

I'm sure you would.

I'd write a letter to his company listing all the pertinent details of the flight. I'd also report it to the appropriate FSDO for that airline. I'm sure the Feds would love to "chat" with that crew in the wake of the Comair crash.

 

[GINCHBLASTER]

I was going to say the same thing about the runway lights. How could runway lights make it easier to see a deer or other animal? All they do is give you an outline of the runway/taxiway, not light up the pavement. If the crew could see where they were going without the lights, whats the big deal?

What would I have done? Nada.

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

[FONT=&quot]8hourpilot:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How are the two (LEX/AVL) even related? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who even mentioned LEX? You're the first one to bring that up![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How are local Deer affected by the turning on/turning off of runway lights? Up here in Michigan, they don't seem to discriminate between the two settings (on/off) or any step setting in between. Perhaps North Carolina deer are different, so I must say sir, you have me waiting with great anticipation.[/FONT][/quote]
Obviously you haven't had the 3 hours of required night flight for the private pilot rating with a qualified and competent instructor. If you see flashing runway lights 1/2 way down on the right, there's something moving between you and that lighton the right side. Let me be especially clear for you, 8HourPilot---if the lights flash on the left, there's something on the left side of the runway. Given the amount of deer in close proximity of the airport, there's a very good chance that there is a deer on the runway. I've been to Michigan before and I'm pretty sure the laws of physics and relativity hold true there too. If an object (deer) passes between a source of light (runway light) and the detection device (your eye--left or right, doesn't matter) you will notice a momentary interuption in light continuity. This also works for gators in Florida, armadillo in Texas, Elk in Montana, Mongoose in Hawaii, and Polar Bear in Alaska. I hope that answers your questions about deer and runway lights. If not, PM me and I will expound on it further.

And just deplane?
If the mistake is not pointed out, no learning and no more attention will be paid to the next event that takes place. This CA will never see another dark runway because he will remember this for the rest of his career. (No threat intended whatsoever.) We all learn from our mistakes--if we know about it.

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

Oh--and the reason for checking with FSS first? I wanted to give the CA every opportunity in the world NOT to be wrong. I didn't want to be the one wrong and making an ass out of myself.

 

[GINCHBLASTER]

wow thanks for the lesson. I'll keep that in mind.

 

[outtahere]

Nothing wrong with asking a question. If i'm in the back of an airplane I am trusting that the two jokers in the front are professionals, and that includes knowing how to look up the appropriate freq for the Pilot controlled lights. The paying public expects that we know what we are doing, and if someone is doing something stupid, be it ignorance or otherwise, its best to call them on it and hopefully give them a wake up call than to let them take a plane load of people on an offroad adventure they didn't ask for. I say good call!

 

[8HourPilot]

The making of an ass out of yourself......done by posting on here, and I do not exclude myself as an ass for posting again on this subject.

Apparently we are going to get into a pissing match of what animals affect runway lights in what states/regions that you have been to. Bottom line, something in front of a runway light makes it flicker, thank you sir for that. I would like to see a mongoose though.

Qualifications aside (nice poke though) I would argue that the BEST way to see deer is to turn on ALL forward facing lights on your/mine/their airplane. A Deer's eyes certainly flicker in the light (as I am sure you are aware) and are very easy to spot, even at a distance.

I appreciated your clarity.

 

[Rip Vanwinkle]

What would I do?

Scream, cry, pray, wet my panties, say something snide and shifty to the crew, slink off the plane to the nearest FSDO and report everyone on board for being a cold prickly. Then come to Flightinfo to brag about it.

What would you do?

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

8hour--I'm just playing with you--got on a roll. Mongoose are daytime animals anyway. Chances are you wouldn't see one at night.

 

[8HourPilot]

I fully expected a picture. :beer:

8hour--I'm just playing with you--got on a roll. Mongoose are daytime animals anyway. Chances are you wouldn't see one at night.

 

[dav8or]

Just get off the plane. Nobody likes a back seat driver. If you're not typed in the aircraft, have a copy of that company's op specs and sitting up front where you can see what is going on then you shouldn't comment.

I had a lady private pilot dinged my fa on the taxi because she didn't think the flaps were set for take off. After the flight she wanted to argue with me because she was convinced that we took off with out the flaps. I couldn't tell her what I really thought so I had to spend ten minutes explaining the differences of the jet vs her pa180.

80for80

Remember that at the time of the Comair crash that the op specs did not call for the runway to be lit. The PIC makes the decision and if he has adequate visual reference then it is his call. If you don’t like the way they operate the aircraft find a different way to work.

 

[pdub20s]

Qualifications aside (nice poke though) I would argue that the BEST way to see deer is to turn on ALL forward facing lights on your/mine/their airplane. A Deer's eyes certainly flicker in the light (as I am sure you are aware) and are very easy to spot, even at a distance.

I appreciated your clarity.

What do you think would happen if you hit a deer at 120-130kts in a ERJ.CRJ?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Well I for one am glad you brought it to the Captain's attention. I think you made the right decision. This story isn't a matter of a private pilot dinging the FA to alert the crew to a configuration issue, it's another professional pilot with thoughts of the Lexington crash fresh in his mind.

 

[Flyer1015]

You gotta love it when a non-airline pilot (a passenger) tells a flight crew how they should be doing their job...

 

[Flyer1015]

As we took the runway, still no runway lights. As the engines powered up, I knew that I couldn't go running down the aisle yelling stop.

You should have done that! Then you could have written this thread in a prison the FBI put you in for interfering with a flight crew.

Then I said, "As many deer as we have around the airport, it's a good idea to use the lights." I told him to have a nice day and exited.

Wow. You showed him!

I know the RJ has better lights than a freight train, but that's beside the point. As I walked off the plane, I'm sure the Captian saw my Flight Safety luggage tag on my computer backpack and thought I was some guy who wants his job.

Yeah, he probably did think that. He probably also though you were a f#$king d*uche.

I know you have 6,775 hours TT in Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004, with 4,900 of that on the CRJ, but please... let real flight crews do their jobs.

 

[Mike man]

If it wasn't USAirways Express who flies from AVL-CLT?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Back in the mid-90's a DC-9 crew just finished the top-of-climb PA to the pax, telling them that they were cruising at 31,000 feet...yada, yada.

A pass-riding pilot in the back asked the F/A if he could go up the cockpit to speak with the captain. He gave the F/A his company ID to present to the captain. The F/A demanded to know what it was about...and the pass-rider insisted that it was a private issue.

The F/A came back with a few minutes later and told the guy the captain wasn't interested in having a discussion with him on any subject he couldn't mention to the F/A.

The guy told her: Fine, ask him when he's going to retract the slats.

 

[Flyer1015]

Well I for one am glad you brought it to the Captain's attention. I think you made the right decision. This story isn't a matter of a private pilot dinging the FA to alert the crew to a configuration issue, it's another professional pilot with thoughts of the Lexington crash fresh in his mind.

I hope this is a joke?


This isn't the same as Lexington. Lexington has two runways that cross each other, and the layout is very confusing!



This "Dr Pokenhiemer" seems to know a lot about lighting, runways, and AVL.



Then SURELY he must know that AVL only has ONE runway, and that runway is 8,000 feet long.


The Lexington accident cannot be made an analogy to AVL, since there is no runway confusion.... you are either on the runway at AVL or you are not.

 

[Flyer1015]

If it wasn't USAirways Express who flies from AVL-CLT?

They are all US Airways Express, they have to be, I don't think anyone else does that route nonstop.


The 3 carriers are:

Piedmont
Air Wisconsin
PSA

 

[Rally]

Apparently it was light enough to taxi to the runway and takeoff, there is no reg or op procedure to my knowledge that lists a time before sunrise or after when lights need to be used. See the runway, takeoff. Whats so hard? Were you in danger?

 

[Rally]

I generally just leave people alone, your wasting your breath most of the time if it is'nt just obviously so dangerous that someone will get killed. Somewhere in one of the ACs for flight instructing it basically says that "CFI's are a representative of the FAA" it goes on to say that if unsafe behavior is observed that we should approach the individual and try to help them, if they continue with obvious unsafe behavior it should be reported to the FSDO for a 709 with the appropriate evidence, but at dawn with no runway lights, come on if they saw well enough to line up you'd think it'd be alright. Deer? What the hell are little runway lights going to do that 100 decibels of jet engine won't? So apparently nobody ever has wildlife stikes at night. Well both of the birds I hit were one right after Vr at night in the rain and the other at night at 5500. I had a student that hit a dear at night at a lighted airport, apparently the lights did'nt have a ultrasonic device to scare the deer away. They were probably laughing at you at the bar that night, what a aviation dork. Did you have any top gun stickers on the case? How about a 1800-airport watch sticker? I was on UAL 777 from Dulles to Munich one time, lonnng flight landed perfectly cleared the runway normally the crew brings the flaps up and retracts the spoilers. Brought the flaps up left the spoilers up all the way till the gate, as soon as the engines shut down (and apparently the hydro pumps off) the spoilers slamed down, did I go up to the crew and ask why they did'nt finish there after landing check? No......LOL One time I lost a cylinder with a friend in a 150 we landed determined we were'nt going anywhere, somebody offered a ride in the Cherokee 6 got in the back with my buddy and we took off with flaps guy climbs up levels off never retracts the flaps both of the pilots are looking at each other trying to figure out why it the a/c won't speed up then all of a sudden he relizes, did I say anything no. Were we in danger? No. LOL If somebody said something everytime I made a mistake I would never fly, it would get too exhausting at all costs and I tell everyone I fly with you see something that makes you uncomfortable speak up I won't lose my pride. As far as I'm concerned everyone needs to be comfortable (the pilots) in the a/c I am flying.

 

[RedDogC130]

For a safety of flight issue like that, I would say something. I am not sure I would bring up Bambi but the fact that it would be nice to see the confines of the runnway if there was a problem. I would say something to the fact that mabye it was the view from the side but it sure looked like there were no runway lights on, who knows. Is it being an as$, yes but worth it in that case....yes. I would have to be damn sure I was correct on something before I brought it to the attention of the crew. The fact that you waited until you were alone, I commend. No need to alarm a passenger that may have no clue what you are talking about.