Blown tire after 80 before V1 on short runway!

[400A]

Hey Falcon Pilot

Was directional control an issue as well?

 

[G100driver]

Do you have time to register a blown tire after 80kts? That is why I go with the standard brief.

"after V1 we will abort for engine, fire, failure, inadvertant T/R deployment or loss of directional control." Quite frankly I think a tire blowing would fall under loss of directional control. But, WTF do I know about a beechjet.

If I loose directional control prior to V1 it is an abort ... it sounds better at the hearing.

 

[falconpilot]

if I remember correctly... Id say around 100 to 105.. It was a Falcon 20C model and we were full of fuel... I cant remember what the V1 was but were probably withing 10 to 15 knots of it.. The most interesting part of the whole thing was when the airplane was put into maintenance to get it checked out.. Falcon sent engineers from France to do test on the airframe... There are certain points around the airframe that they would hang plumb bobs from to determine if the fuselage twisted or was out of shape... As I recall the vibration caused lost of internal damage... You may can research it somewhere.. It was serial number 24 falcon 20.

 

[400A]

Do you have time to register a blown tire after 80kts? That is why I go with the standard brief.

"after V1 we will abort for engine, fire, failure, inadvertant T/R deployment or loss of directional control." Quite frankly I think a tire blowing would fall under loss of directional control. But, WTF do I know about a beechjet.

If I loose directional control prior to V1 it is an abort ... it sounds better at the hearing.

You would abort after V1? or was that a typo.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

A little off topic...

I landed once with a blown right main tire (2 tires on each strut), and we didn't even know it until I did the post flight! We still don't know if it came apart on TO or landing (or taxiing???).

cliff
MCI

PS-If u knew you had a tire/gear problem, I would DEFINITELY leave the gear down and locked (unless range were a factor to get to a suitable runway).

 

[falconpilot]

Do you have time to register a blown tire after 80kts? That is why I go with the standard brief.

"after V1 we will abort for engine, fire, failure, inadvertant T/R deployment or loss of directional control." Quite frankly I think a tire blowing would fall under loss of directional control. But, WTF do I know about a beechjet.

If I loose directional control prior to V1 it is an abort ... it sounds better at the hearing.

I wasn't a captain at the time of this incident. But your right.. I don't think my mind registered a blown tire at first. But words cannot explain the vibration.. Im talking severe vibration.. I didn't even consider trying to continue the take off. Abort Abort Abort came out of my mouth immediately. You couldn't even read the intruments and it was even hard trying to get my hand on the airbrake handle. Directional control wasn't exactly a big issue.. Having a tiller helped that problem quite a bit.. But im not going to tell you we kept on the centerline either. The airplane went to the right in somewhat of a violent way, but it was controlable. I've though back on this event several times and wondered what would have happened if we continued and got airborne... Landing in that type of situation would have probably been disasterous.. High ref speed, heavy aircraft, and no tires on one side.. I really don't think it would have been pretty..

 

[Rxflyer]

I would be inclined to (try to) stop, agreeing with above comments about what would happen trying to land with what would likely be a shredded tire. It seems to me, though, that if you were departing a short runway, you would be spring-loaded to abort if anything happened prior to V1. You would just react to the situation and wouldn't take time to evaluate it, and would abort.
Sounds like a scenario to try in the sim if you can !

 

[falconpilot]

I would be inclined to (try to) stop, agreeing with above comments about what would happen trying to land with what would likely be a shredded tire. It seems to me, though, that if you were departing a short runway, you would be spring-loaded to abort if anything happened prior to V1. You would just react to the situation and wouldn't take time to evaluate it, and would abort.
Sounds like a scenario to try in the sim if you can !

It would be something good to practice in the sim... But i can promise the sim wont come close to the real thing... I was glad that we were at Alliance Fort Worth will a really long runway.. Any other airport we probably would have gone off the end.. We would have most likely blown the fuse plugs on the good tires trying to stop..

 

[svcta]

High speed rejects are almost always a bad proposition. I tend to agree with the "fire, failure, t/r deploy or loss of dir. control" list and with those that question the capabilities of recognizing and diagnosing a blown tire in those few seconds. the water gets mudied a little with jets as light as most of the corporate world are operating, and the heavier you get the more important I think it becomes that you adhere to the list of reject items.

Personally, I like the idea of getting in the air and finding a suitable airport to land on if the one we just departed isn't rather large. I know that it must be hard to fight your gut reaction to stop in a case like this, but that is precisely what training is all about. You train away gut reactions and apply rehearsed ones. It's what separates us from the apes.

 

[con-pilot]

Pay heed to the words of falconpilot. The answer is STOP.

 

[falconpilot]

High speed rejects are almost always a bad proposition. I tend to agree with the "fire, failure, t/r deploy or loss of dir. control" list and with those that question the capabilities of recognizing and diagnosing a blown tire in those few seconds. the water gets mudied a little with jets as light as most of the corporate world are operating, and the heavier you get the more important I think it becomes that you adhere to the list of reject items.

Personally, I like the idea of getting in the air and finding a suitable airport to land on if the one we just departed isn't rather large. I know that it must be hard to fight your gut reaction to stop in a case like this, but that is precisely what training is all about. You train away gut reactions and apply rehearsed ones. It's what separates us from the apes.

QUESTION.... This is not only directed to you either... How do you define loss of directional control... Or should i say... What is your boundry area... IE.. If you leave centerline and cant bring it back? Or if you leave centerline and its hell trying to get it back to centerline... I agree that high speed aborts are not safe... But I can promise everyone that reads this that if you blow a tire between 80 and V1 you will have a loss of directional control. It may be temparary... But you will not keep it straight. Especially if you are in an aircraft that has a large diference between V1 and VR. I would even go as far as saying that if there was suffient runway available and your aircraft has a large split between V1 and VR, an abort at V1 would probably be a better choice than getting airborne.. That being said... Ill probably be branded as an idiot and a horrible pilot... But think about it for a minute... Lets say your V1 is 124 and Vr is 134. Those number are from a Falcon 50EX mgtow slats only take off.. Thats not a big difference between V1 and Vr, some aircraft have alot larger difference between the two.. At those speeds if you blew two tires on the same gear, the rubber would depart the wheel and you would probably burn half the wheel off and ignite hydraulic fluid from the brakes. I still would vote to abort... BUT... Only if there was suffient runway available.. It would be scary taking that into the air and then trying to land and keep it on the pavement. JMO

 

[SCT]

My personal opinion is that I would stop the a/c. With tight runway #s and the scenerio given....it's time to react and not think. In the split second w/ a short runway, it is not time to debate whether the vibration is a blown tire, loss fan blade, etc.

Just my thoughts.

 

[con-pilot]

Just my thoughts.

Pretty darn good thoughts as well.

We always need to maintain 'situational awareness'. Is it better to depart the runway environment at 80 to 100 knots decelerating? (Assuming one is not going off a cliff, see situational awareness above.) Or impacting the ground at 150+ kts inverted yelling and screaming?

Sitting in a wheelchair at the hearing is better than being 6 feet under.

 

[G100driver]

You would abort after V1? or was that a typo.

$hit!!! I meant after 80 knots prior to V1 we abort yadda yadda yadda

 

[400A]

$hit!!! I meant after 80 knots prior to V1 we abort yadda yadda yadda

I thought so, and I agree.