Blown tire after 80 before V1 on short runway!

[BE400]

Single wheel gear setup. Do you continue or try to stop with no rubber on one side? What is your take on this? Seems that stopping would be harder than accelerating to v1, though control would be an issue.

 

[h25b]

Yeah but stopping from 80-85 kts. may be better than landing at 115 kts with no rubber on one wheel. Many department's will only stop at that point only for engine fire, engine failure, and/or loss of directional control. Sounds like you might have a loss of directional control. I'd venture to say in the heat of the moment you might not be able to tell that it was a blown tire. A sudden lurch towards the blown tire during the ground roll may initially be perceived as an engine failure.

Who knows... Never had a tire blow...

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Single wheel gear setup. Do you continue or try to stop with no rubber on one side? What is your take on this? Seems that stopping would be harder than accelerating to v1, though control would be an issue.

My vote would be go, depending on how far you are from V1. No rubber/tire on that side would severely impede your stopping power.
Better to continue the t/o, go around the pattern, and land using full length.
If the runway is that short, maybe consider burning off some weight and/or looking for a longer (and wider) runway. Might be a good idea to leave the gear down, also. If the wheel or gear doors are damaged, they could get stuck in transit.
I've never had a blown tire, either
And this opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it...

 

[FearlessFreep]

Just saw this thread on the main index. The procedure at my airline is that you would only reject after 80 Kts & before V1 for very drastic problems. I am sure that this would be applicable in the corporate environment as well.

I have heard of rejects above 80 Kts & supposedly before V1 for blown tires and the results have not always been favorable - read hull loss/departing the end of the runway, etc. In some of these cases there was additional damage to the aircraft hydraulic systems, like the one's that the brakes work on. Rejecting with disabled brakes or remembering to select your reserve brakes prior to all of this is quite a challenge on a short runway.

As far as directional control goes these situations have been on large aircraft with more than one tire per main gear, so there is a difference with directional control considerations. What you might want to consider is the amount of aircraft that have been landed safely with one gear up and have been able to stay on the runway.

As stated above, it would probably be best if you remember not to bring the gear up.

Overall you are probably better to take it into the air and bring it back in then try to stop it on the runway. The thing to remember is always give yourself as much time as possible to address issues. There obviously are different situations that demand timely & immediate action, but in most cases you can deal with things over a much more protracted period of time. Don't rush yourself into other problems. Of course this is all easier said than done, especially when the SHTF!

You might want to do a search on the web for NTSB reports regarding rejected TO's. Additionally you might want to pop over to the pprune boards, they are a pretty technical bunch over there. They might have discussed this situation in length.

 

[DrProc]

My vote would be go, depending on how far you are from V1. No rubber/tire on that side would severely impede your stopping power.
Better to continue the t/o, go around the pattern, and land using full length.
If the runway is that short, maybe consider burning off some weight and/or looking for a longer (and wider) runway. Might be a good idea to leave the gear down, also. If the wheel or gear doors are damaged, they could get stuck in transit.
I've never had a blown tire, either
And this opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it...

But would the aircraft accelerate normally to rotate speed. You may run out of runway getting to Vr if it is a short field. Also a blown tire can do a lot of damage to hydraulics, fuel, etc., just look at what it did to the concorde. Just a few more things to think about, but I think I would be inclined to stop.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

But would the aircraft accelerate normally to rotate speed. You may run out of runway getting to Vr if it is a short field. Also a blown tire can do a lot of damage to hydraulics, fuel, etc., just look at what it did to the concorde. Just a few more things to think about, but I think I would be inclined to stop.

Just my opinion, but I don't think acceleration would be hampered all that much, not nearly as much as the loss of braking power would be to stopping. Look at it this way, you just lost half your brakes.
I remember seeing stats that showed far more wrecked airplanes from rejects than from taking off with problems. Most of the problems that sparked the rejects didn't impair the ability to fly, either.
It's easy to say, as I sit here on the couch, but I would be inclined to go.

 

[400A]

Single wheel gear setup. Do you continue or try to stop with no rubber on one side? What is your take on this? Seems that stopping would be harder than accelerating to v1, though control would be an issue.

Assuming you are a fellow Beechjet driver, I initially thought stop, but the more I think about it I think I might want to go, leave the gear down in case of damage, find a longer runway and be sure and turn the anti-skid off. I think the anti-skid would prevent you from getting much stopping power when the wheel with no tire stopped spinning.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I think the anti-skid would prevent you from getting much stopping power when the wheel with no tire stopped spinning.

Interesting thought about the a-skid. If you're on the rim, you won't get much braking, locked wheel or not, right? How about the other, good wheel? Wouldn't you want the best braking and protection possible? You sure wouldn't want that one to blow, also.
I admit I don't know anything about your airplane, however.

 

[400A]

Interesting thought about the a-skid. If you're on the rim, you won't get much braking, locked wheel or not, right? How about the other, good wheel? Wouldn't you want the best braking and protection possible? You sure wouldn't want that one to blow, also.
I admit I don't know anything about your airplane, however.

The way the Beechjet works, if one main stops, it will release the other main. I am assuming that it would be very easy to stop the wheel with no tire, therefore it would keep releasing the good brake. I think I might want it off, and use gentle braking on landing. On a long runway and T/R's the Beechjet requires almost no braking.

Don't get me wrong, I am open to debate on this, Those were just my thoughts.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

The way the Beechjet works, if one main stops, it will release the other main. I am assuming that it would be very easy to stop the wheel with no tire, therefore it would keep releasing the good brake. I think I might want it off, and use gentle braking on landing. On a long runway and T/R's the Beechjet requires almost no braking.

Don't get me wrong, I am open to debate on this, Those were just my thoughts.

Ah, thanks. I thought it may be type-specific. Most a-skids I've used only release the wheel that is locked. If your system releases both, that would certainly make sense.
Thanks for the education.

 

[falconpilot]

I Have Had This Happen!!!!!! Falcon 20-5 At Afw. (alliance Fort Worth). You Do Not. I Repeat Do Not Want To Continue This Take Off At All Cost... If You Cant Stop The Airplane On A Short Runway, Then Maybe That Would Be The Only Detering Factor.. We Blew The Inside Right Main First, Which Then Caused The Outside Main To Blow For Some Reason. The Vibration Was So Intense That You Could Not Read The Instument Panel.. Plates Were Falling Out Of The Galley, Pax Were Freaked Out... Etc... We Used All 11000 Feet Of Runway Stopping It... No Tr's. The Airplane Was Full Of Fuel At The Time. There Was Flap And Gear Damage.. We Stopped And Pulled Off The Runway, And I Asked If I Could Get Out Of The Plane And Assess The Damage.. I Got Out And Walked Around To The Right Side Of The Aircraft, And Came To The Conclusion That Taxiing Any Further Was Not A Great Idea. We Shut The Plane Down Called The Fire Trucks, Due To The Fact That The Brakes Were So Hot That They Were Popping And Looked As If They Were Melting. (pieces Of The Brake Were Falling On The Ground.) Terry Bradshaw Was Our Passenger. He Got Out And Leaned Against The Left Wing Near The Door. I Told Him We Should Get Away From The Gear Just Incase One The Brakes Decided To Come Apart. About A Second Later The Heat From The Braked Caused The Fuse Plugs To Blow On The Left Gear Tires. It Scared The Pi$$ Out Of Both Me And Terry Bradshaw. That Was The First Time I Heard One Blow. Long Story Short. It Was A Big Ordeal. My Recomendation Is To If You Are Before V1, Abort At All Cost.

 

[400A]

Yikes!!!

 

[BE400]

Thanks for the posts! I used to fly the beechjet. I am currently flying the Ultra soon to be Excel. The Excel is a 20,000 lb aircraft with a single main wheel. I recently had an interesting conversation with another company pilot about continuing or rejecting in this situation.
I thought it would be better to continue and he said he would reject. Considering we fly together as a crew, I think we should agree on this subject. I guess it all comes down to how much directional control is affected and how well the aircraft accelerates after the tire is gone. The problem is you are a test pilot when this happens! Just one of those things you will have to instinctively react to as a pilot.

 

[BE400]

Thanks Falconpilot, good info!

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I Have Had This Happen!!!!!! Falcon 20-5 At Afw. (alliance Fort Worth). You Do Not. I Repeat Do Not Want To Continue This Take Off At All Cost... If You Cant Stop The Airplane On A Short Runway, Then Maybe That Would Be The Only Detering Factor.. We Blew The Inside Right Main First, Which Then Caused The Outside Main To Blow For Some Reason. The Vibration Was So Intense That You Could Not Read The Instument Panel.. Plates Were Falling Out Of The Galley, Pax Were Freaked Out... Etc... We Used All 11000 Feet Of Runway Stopping It... No Tr's. The Airplane Was Full Of Fuel At The Time. There Was Flap And Gear Damage.. We Stopped And Pulled Off The Runway, And I Asked If I Could Get Out Of The Plane And Assess The Damage.. I Got Out And Walked Around To The Right Side Of The Aircraft, And Came To The Conclusion That Taxiing Any Further Was Not A Great Idea. We Shut The Plane Down Called The Fire Trucks, Due To The Fact That The Brakes Were So Hot That They Were Popping And Looked As If They Were Melting. (pieces Of The Brake Were Falling On The Ground.) Terry Bradshaw Was Our Passenger. He Got Out And Leaned Against The Left Wing Near The Door. I Told Him We Should Get Away From The Gear Just Incase One The Brakes Decided To Come Apart. About A Second Later The Heat From The Braked Caused The Fuse Plugs To Blow On The Left Gear Tires. It Scared The Pi$$ Out Of Both Me And Terry Bradshaw. That Was The First Time I Heard One Blow. Long Story Short. It Was A Big Ordeal. My Recomendation Is To If You Are Before V1, Abort At All Cost.

WOW...
How fast when the tires blew?

 

[400A]

Hey Falcon Pilot

Was directional control an issue as well?

 

[G100driver]

Do you have time to register a blown tire after 80kts? That is why I go with the standard brief.

"after V1 we will abort for engine, fire, failure, inadvertant T/R deployment or loss of directional control." Quite frankly I think a tire blowing would fall under loss of directional control. But, WTF do I know about a beechjet.

If I loose directional control prior to V1 it is an abort ... it sounds better at the hearing.

 

[falconpilot]

if I remember correctly... Id say around 100 to 105.. It was a Falcon 20C model and we were full of fuel... I cant remember what the V1 was but were probably withing 10 to 15 knots of it.. The most interesting part of the whole thing was when the airplane was put into maintenance to get it checked out.. Falcon sent engineers from France to do test on the airframe... There are certain points around the airframe that they would hang plumb bobs from to determine if the fuselage twisted or was out of shape... As I recall the vibration caused lost of internal damage... You may can research it somewhere.. It was serial number 24 falcon 20.

 

[400A]

Do you have time to register a blown tire after 80kts? That is why I go with the standard brief.

"after V1 we will abort for engine, fire, failure, inadvertant T/R deployment or loss of directional control." Quite frankly I think a tire blowing would fall under loss of directional control. But, WTF do I know about a beechjet.

If I loose directional control prior to V1 it is an abort ... it sounds better at the hearing.

You would abort after V1? or was that a typo.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

A little off topic...

I landed once with a blown right main tire (2 tires on each strut), and we didn't even know it until I did the post flight! We still don't know if it came apart on TO or landing (or taxiing???).

cliff
MCI

PS-If u knew you had a tire/gear problem, I would DEFINITELY leave the gear down and locked (unless range were a factor to get to a suitable runway).