USAir March bid

[General Lee]

Hey General?

Delta pilots have already retained Jeff Freund (AWA's attorney) in the possible merger between Delta and USAirways.

I don't think so, because Lee Moak has no intention of ever letting this go through. I doubt they retained anyone on AWA's side unless he is gone from there.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Green]

Hey General?

Delta pilots have already retained Jeff Freund (AWA's attorney) in the possible merger between Delta and USAirways.

Where did you get this info???

 

[vetrider]

It's a virtual certainty that the A330 Captain slots will be for original U pilots only for at least the next 7 to 8 years. Your 1986 hire friend at AWA can bid it as a junior F.O. though if he really wants to fly to Europe.:smash:


TP

No matter what Nicolau comes up with on the list I believe you are right about the 330, I doubt any west pilots will even be allowed on it as fo. I also think that is as it should be, the widebodies are yours, I think that is only right. All I want is to have my normal progression in PHX, thats all.

 

[typhoonpilot]

No matter what Nicolau comes up with on the list I believe you are right about the 330, I doubt any west pilots will even be allowed on it as fo. I also think that is as it should be, the widebodies are yours, I think that is only right. All I want is to have my normal progression in PHX, thats all.

I wrote that post to settle the General down. He seems to have become a flamer of late.

I think we agree, in that I don't think any U guy should be allowed to keep an AWA guy from his normal progression in the west. As stated here and elsewhere, big fences are really necessary in this integration to keep windfalls from happening for either side.

It's inflammatory to say that a 1986 hire at AWA could hold A330 Captain after the integration, just as it is inflammaotry to say that the bottom guy at U could hold Captain in the west. That gets us nowhere. Fences are the best answer. Relative seniority doesn't work nor does DOH unless their are long term fences that last until about 2025. U's proposal keeps the fences until 2014. That's not long enough to protect guys in my seniority range, but at least it's a start.

Typhoonpilot

 

[PHXFLYR]

[

Another consideration is that many U pilots will not return. I would expect only 33% or less. This time there is no pension to return to, only a low paying F.O. job. You're right that I won't be coming back. I've run the numbers and it makes no sense for me to return financially. Many others will make the same determination.


Here's hoping your right.....:beer:


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

"He seemed excited about those A330s."

That's a bit out of character for you Gen Lee. You aren't usually so petty.

You don't know him very well,do you?


PHXFLYR

 

[vetrider]

I wrote that post to settle the General down. He seems to have become a flamer of late.

I think we agree, in that I don't think any U guy should be allowed to keep an AWA guy from his normal progression in the west. As stated here and elsewhere, big fences are really necessary in this integration to keep windfalls from happening for either side.

It's inflammatory to say that a 1986 hire at AWA could hold A330 Captain after the integration, just as it is inflammaotry to say that the bottom guy at U could hold Captain in the west. That gets us nowhere. Fences are the best answer. Relative seniority doesn't work nor does DOH unless their are long term fences that last until about 2025. U's proposal keeps the fences until 2014. That's not long enough to protect guys in my seniority range, but at least it's a start.

Typhoonpilot

I agree with everything you just said. I may be naieve or overly optimistic, but I have a hunch Nicolau is going to do a good job for all of us. That is not to say that there won't be alot of bitching on both sides, for there will be, but I think the end result will be ok.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Hope your right....we all have alot at stake.


PHXFLYR

 

[General Lee]

You don't know him very well,do you?


PHXFLYR

I must have made you mad recently. I talked to one of your senior pilots and he told me his take on your talks. That was it. I honestly don't care what happens with you guys and USAir.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DLslug]

GL:

Can we at least be friends still?? Ha Ha.

All for now.

DLslug

 

[BeCareful!]

[

Another consideration is that many U pilots will not return. I would expect only 33% or less. This time there is no pension to return to, only a low paying F.O. job. You're right that I won't be coming back. I've run the numbers and it makes no sense for me to return financially. Many others will make the same determination.


Here's hoping your right.....:beer:


PHXFLYR

Gosh, PHXFLR, if we are getting stapled then what does it matter to you? We all know how to operate the gear handle.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Nice to see you're still doing a top notch job of feeling sorry for yourself.


PHXFLYR

 

[BeCareful!]

Nice to see you're still doing a top notch job of feeling sorry for yourself.


PHXFLYR

Be that as it may....which it's not.....would you mind answering my question?

 

[nosoupforyou!]

Boy this integration thing never gets any easier. Anyone ever read the book "Skygods"? It tells the story of Pan Am and how they went from First to last and finally out of business.

There is a real interesting story about how they bought National Airlines and used an integration method called "Integration by expectation". Man what a ******************** sandwich for the 15 year Pan Am F/O getting bypassed to the left seat by a short timer National guy. (Makes for an enjoyable 4 day trip).

Now with the phat new bid Parker has put in for Delta, could this scene get any uglier?

Ouch.

 

[TWA Dude]

There is a real interesting story about how they bought National Airlines and used an integration method called "Integration by expectation".

That's why there's an ALPA Merger Policy. It's as fair as it can get.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Be that as it may....which it's not.....would you mind answering my question?

Uh...no. Next question sad sack.

PHXFLYR

 

[BeCareful!]

Uh...no. Next question sad sack.

PHXFLYR

OK, why are you such an arrogant prick?

 

[PHXFLYR]

Bad day at F Concourse,loser?

PHXFLYR

 

[Green]

....about the 330, I doubt any west pilots will even be allowed on it as fo. I also think that is as it should be, the widebodies are yours, I think that is only right. All I want is to have my normal progression in PHX, thats all.

Come on buddy you're smarter than that. So vetrider just because all you care about is progressing in PHX you are willing to accept long term fences on the widebodies? Well that would set a great precedent if the DAL deal goes through! About 30% of Delta is widebodies. Effectively us AWA guys would be fenced out of about 1/3rd of the new airline because all we cared about was protecting pre-merger progression in little old phx.

What if Parker decides that all the money is in the International arena and he shrinks the domestic side and expands the international arena? Where would your plan put us then? Stagnation would be the rule for AWA pilots. We are likely to become the BIGGEST airline in the world and you want to hand over all widebodies indefinitely!!!! We can't agree to that as fair and then expect to ever see them at DAL if that goes through. Talk about the trailer trash sub-group. we would be the only ones out of 12000 who don't have a retirement or access to a significant portion of the combined fleet.

If we are going to buy their bullsh#t that career expectations were irrelevant the day we announced the merger then we can say goodbye to their argument that we would never see widebodies because who knows? If they could potentially resurect themeselves from the dead then we could dammn well buy widebodies. I could be wrong here but I believe we used to have 747's? Bigger than anything the prima donnas at AAA ever flew. Too many AWA pilots are ready to just give stuff away because it doesn't apply to them. That's why we've always been bottom of the barrell in terms of pay/working conditions. Until we start acting like a cohesive/powerful union instead of a bunch of self interested factions we'll end up with crap.

 

[vetrider]

Come on buddy you're smarter than that. So vetrider just because all you care about is progressing in PHX you are willing to accept long term fences on the widebodies? Well that would set a great precedent if the DAL deal goes through! About 30% of Delta is widebodies. Effectively us AWA guys would be fenced out of about 1/3rd of the new airline because all we cared about was protecting pre-merger progression in little old phx.

What if Parker decides that all the money is in the International arena and he shrinks the domestic side and expands the international arena? Where would your plan put us then? Stagnation would be the rule for AWA pilots. We are likely to become the BIGGEST airline in the world and you want to hand over all widebodies indefinitely!!!! We can't agree to that as fair and then expect to ever see them at DAL if that goes through. Talk about the trailer trash sub-group. we would be the only ones out of 12000 who don't have a retirement or access to a significant portion of the combined fleet.

If we are going to buy their bullsh#t that career expectations were irrelevant the day we announced the merger then we can say goodbye to their argument that we would never see widebodies because who knows? If they could potentially resurect themeselves from the dead then we could dammn well buy widebodies. I could be wrong here but I believe we used to have 747's? Bigger than anything the prima donnas at AAA ever flew. Too many AWA pilots are ready to just give stuff away because it doesn't apply to them. That's why we've always been bottom of the barrell in terms of pay/working conditions. Until we start acting like a cohesive/powerful union instead of a bunch of self interested factions we'll end up with crap.

I don't want the east to neuter the progression of the west, and by the same token I don't want the west to neuter the progression of the east. It is a two way street. The fact is, the east had and has legitimate expectations as to their widebodies. No, I don't want to give away, but I don't want to go and steal either.

It doesn't matter what I think anyway. The merger commitees will present, and Nicolau will sort through and decide.