One way to kill the US/DL takeover.....keep the pensions

[General Lee]

Delta Creditors: US Airways Deal Not Set
Tuesday December 12, 12:10 pm ET
By Harry R. Weber, AP Business Writer
Delta Creditors Committee Says No Guarantee US Airways Deal Will Be Reached


ATLANTA (AP) -- There is no guarantee that US Airways' unsolicited buyout offer of Delta will ever be consummated, but it surely will fall through if the pilots' pension plan at Delta is not terminated, lawyers for Delta's unsecured creditors committee said Tuesday.



The committee, a key player in whether the hostile bid is approved, said in court papers that its consideration of the deal, announced Nov. 15, is still in the early stages, but that US Airways has made clear it would walk away without the pilots' pension being dumped.

"While US Airways' offer is only in the preliminary stages of discussion and it is uncertain whether a merger agreement will ever be reached, one thing is certain: the merger between Delta and US Airways will not proceed if the pilot plan is not terminated," the committee's lawyers wrote.

The remarks were made in a filing in which the committee asked the bankruptcy court to deny a request by some retired Delta pilots to stay the court's earlier approval of the pension termination pending further appeal. A federal district judge Monday upheld the bankruptcy court's approval.

The creditors committee's filing includes an affidavit from US Airways Group Inc. lawyer Timothy Pohl, dated Dec. 5, in which Pohl asserts that the Tempe, Ariz.-based airline's offer for Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines Inc., currently valued at $8.7 billion, "assumes that the pilot plan is being terminated."

Likewise, Delta has said it would not be able to emerge from bankruptcy as a standalone carrier, which is its preference, without the pilot pension being terminated.

Top executives of US Airways spent several hours late last month trying to explain to Delta and the bankrupt carrier's unsecured creditors committee why its offer to buy Delta would be better than Delta's standalone plan. The creditors committee has been weighing its options since then, and it has not said which way it is leaning.

Delta has said repeatedly it is opposed to a merger. It is expected to file its reorganization plan with the court later this month.

Delta Air Lines Inc.: http://www.delta.com



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Any comments, PHXflyr? Sounds like to me the lawyers HINTED on how to kill the deal.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[xanderman]

okay

Any comments, PHXflyr? Sounds like to me the lawyers HINTED on how to kill the deal.

Bye Bye--General Lee

So I guess it is as simple as you guys going in to the bankruptcy judge and telling him to keep the pensions? Yes?

Oh and I think you accidentally left out a little paragraph that talks about your very own creditors committee stating delta could not emerge from bankruptcy as a stand-alone carrier without terminating the pensions as well. Rock and a hard place my friend...

Andy

 

[ils2minimums]

it seems Mr. Webber is about 8 days behind the times. The dumping of the pilot pensions has already been approved... In fact, he wrote the article linked below... ?


Santa Cruz Sentinel - Breaking National News

 

[xanderman]

here it is...

GL you must have accidentally deleted this statement out of the middle of the article you posted. Easy slip... I've done it myself...


AP
Delta Creditors: US Airways Deal Not Set
Tuesday December 12, 12:10 pm ET
By Harry R. Weber, AP Business Writer Delta Creditors Committee Says No Guarantee US Airways Deal Will Be Reached

ATLANTA (AP) -- There is no guarantee that US Airways' unsolicited buyout offer of Delta will ever be consummated, but it surely will fall through if the pilots' pension plan at Delta is not terminated, lawyers for Delta's unsecured creditors committee said Tuesday.

The committee, a key player in whether the hostile bid is approved, said in court papers that its consideration of the deal, announced Nov. 15, is still in the early stages, but that US Airways has made clear it would walk away without the pilots' pension being dumped.

"While US Airways' offer is only in the preliminary stages of discussion and it is uncertain whether a merger agreement will ever be reached, one thing is certain: the merger between Delta and US Airways will not proceed if the pilot plan is not terminated," the committee's lawyers wrote.

The remarks were made in a filing in which the committee asked the bankruptcy court to deny a request by some retired Delta pilots to stay the court's earlier approval of the pension termination pending further appeal. A federal district judge Monday upheld the bankruptcy court's approval.

The creditors committee's filing includes an affidavit from US Airways Group Inc. lawyer Timothy Pohl, dated Dec. 5, in which Pohl asserts that the Tempe, Ariz.-based airline's offer for Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines Inc., currently valued at $8.7 billion, "assumes that the pilot plan is being terminated."

Likewise, Delta has said it would not be able to emerge from bankruptcy as a standalone carrier, which is its preference, without the pilot pension being terminated.

Top executives of US Airways spent several hours late last month trying to explain to Delta and the bankrupt carrier's unsecured creditors committee why its offer to buy Delta would be better than Delta's standalone plan. The creditors committee has been weighing its options since then, and it has not said which way it is leaning.

Delta has said repeatedly it is opposed to a merger. It is expected to file its reorganization plan with the court later this month. Delta Air Lines Inc.:

Glad to help.

Andy

 

[Noserider76]

Something else to think about. DL's non-contract employees still have their pensions. Management fought for legislation to keep them. US pensions have been cancelled and the PBGC is picking up the tab. The PBGC wouldn't be too happy with the merged carrier dumping the the current DL retirements on them and they are one of the biggest creditors.

 

[GOTAFLY]

General,
Did you get the part that Delta also would not be able to come out of Bankruptcy as a stand alone carrier if the pension plan was still there? Just take a big breath of air, and wait and see what happens.


Bye Bye---Gotafly

 

[GOTAFLY]

Whoops didn't see the other replys.

 

[General Lee]

So I guess it is as simple as you guys going in to the bankruptcy judge and telling him to keep the pensions? Yes?

Oh and I think you accidentally left out a little paragraph that talks about your very own creditors committee stating delta could not emerge from bankruptcy as a stand-alone carrier without terminating the pensions as well. Rock and a hard place my friend...

Andy

Did I not put that in bold? I actually did. But, it was a Delta press release, (look at bottom) and maybe they can do something. I am sure the pBGC wouldn't mind not having to fund it, and they only settled for a claim that may net them 50 cents on the dollar. You never know..... why would DL put this out there? Regardless, the unsecured creditor lawyers sure don't seem confident of a takeover. Re-read the first paragraph. No sure thing.


Bye Bye--General Lee

PS--It is a long shot anyway, especially with the DOJ.(read below in blue)

 

[General Lee]

General,
Did you get the part that Delta also would not be able to come out of Bankruptcy as a stand alone carrier if the pension plan was still there? Just take a big breath of air, and wait and see what happens.


Bye Bye---Gotafly

I actually had that in boldface. Thanks. You need to re-read the first paragraph and see what the lawyers for the unsecured creditor committee really think. No sure thing for USAir. And the DOJ will strike it down most likely anyway. And, the article didn't say we wouldn't come out of BK without someone else, just not with USAir if we don't drop the pensions. We don't want to be with USAir, and maybe NWA or some boutique bank won't mind as much if we have to hang onto the pensions. We just don't want to be with you guys. No offense. Too much overlap.


Bye Bye--General Lee

P.S. This is from the Airtran/Midwest merger article: Read the underlined portion and tell me if there is anything different about the proposed USAir/DL merger? I would say a WHOLE LOT. Good luck.

People familiar with AirTran's offer for Midwest said the proposed merger is not expected to run into opposition from federal regulators. They said there is relatively little overlap between the two networks, with only four overlapping nonstop routes connecting Milwaukee to Atlanta, Orlando, Tampa and Fort Myers, Fla.

 

[General Lee]

GL you must have accidentally deleted this statement out of the middle of the article you posted. Easy slip... I've done it myself...


AP
Delta Creditors: US Airways Deal Not Set
Tuesday December 12, 12:10 pm ET
By Harry R. Weber, AP Business Writer Delta Creditors Committee Says No Guarantee US Airways Deal Will Be Reached

ATLANTA (AP) -- There is no guarantee that US Airways' unsolicited buyout offer of Delta will ever be consummated, but it surely will fall through if the pilots' pension plan at Delta is not terminated, lawyers for Delta's unsecured creditors committee said Tuesday.

The committee, a key player in whether the hostile bid is approved, said in court papers that its consideration of the deal, announced Nov. 15, is still in the early stages, but that US Airways has made clear it would walk away without the pilots' pension being dumped.

"While US Airways' offer is only in the preliminary stages of discussion and it is uncertain whether a merger agreement will ever be reached, one thing is certain: the merger between Delta and US Airways will not proceed if the pilot plan is not terminated," the committee's lawyers wrote.

The remarks were made in a filing in which the committee asked the bankruptcy court to deny a request by some retired Delta pilots to stay the court's earlier approval of the pension termination pending further appeal. A federal district judge Monday upheld the bankruptcy court's approval.

The creditors committee's filing includes an affidavit from US Airways Group Inc. lawyer Timothy Pohl, dated Dec. 5, in which Pohl asserts that the Tempe, Ariz.-based airline's offer for Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines Inc., currently valued at $8.7 billion, "assumes that the pilot plan is being terminated."

Likewise, Delta has said it would not be able to emerge from bankruptcy as a standalone carrier, which is its preference, without the pilot pension being terminated.

Top executives of US Airways spent several hours late last month trying to explain to Delta and the bankrupt carrier's unsecured creditors committee why its offer to buy Delta would be better than Delta's standalone plan. The creditors committee has been weighing its options since then, and it has not said which way it is leaning.

Delta has said repeatedly it is opposed to a merger. It is expected to file its reorganization plan with the court later this month. Delta Air Lines Inc.:

Glad to help.

Andy

I did? No I didn't. You need to look at it again. My editing was to get rid of the advertisements.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Doug Parker]

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Dayum, GL, collect yer thoughts and put them all together in 1 post !!!





.

 

[General Lee]

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Dayum, GL, collect yer thoughts and put them all together in 1 post !!!





.

I am working on 8,000 total. Soooooon.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[xanderman]

okay sure

GL you edited your post! How come? Oh it was the advertisements. Sorry. I read your original post. It was skewed as usual. NO mention of anything negative by, for ,or on behalf of Delta. It's all good though. I just wish you could look at something from another perspective. Delta is not the end-all-be-all. Which brings up a question for you. How can you vehemently defend a management team that took so much from you and your fellow pilots? And do you and Moak really believe that GG will take care of you when you emerge a stand-alone carrier?

Andy

 

[9rj9]

change sides

The Delta leadership only wants their reward of stock options upon exit from bankruptcy. USAir merges before exit and they get nothing. Delta still manages to rack up loses even after raping every employee and tossing the pilots pension. Why are the pilots so scared of USAir, Delta's management seems much worse. So you lose a few slots in the senority list, better than being back in bankruptcy in 6 months.

 

[General Lee]

GL you edited your post! How come? Oh it was the advertisements. Sorry. I read your original post. It was skewed as usual. NO mention of anything negative by, for ,or on behalf of Delta. It's all good though. I just wish you could look at something from another perspective. Delta is not the end-all-be-all. Which brings up a question for you. How can you vehemently defend a management team that took so much from you and your fellow pilots? And do you and Moak really believe that GG will take care of you when you emerge a stand-alone carrier?

Andy

First of all Andy, look at the time I edited the first post (like 22:30), and I posted it at 22:17. I wasn't hiding anything. The first response was well after that(yours was at 23:47). So, I did keep everything in that article except the annoying advertisements.

Second, most of those people that did lead us down the bad path are gone. The current crop have had to clean up the mess. Did that involve some blood from ALPA? Yes. Was it painful? You bet. Was everything taken? No. Most of the work rules are intact. The pension is a sore spot, but USAir also took theirs, and AWA never had one.

Parker is biting off more that he can chew. USAir ALPA, along with AWA ALPA (coast to coast ALPA I guess), both condemned this merger, since Parker hasn't even finished the USAir/AWA merger. Yes, I know the arbitrator has been busy.....Regardless, Parker hasn't done much to help any pilot group.

Then, if you can say with a straight face that our route maps don't involve overlap, you are kidding yourself. Sure, you could try to go after the competition and eliminate some, but the Gov't doesn't like that. The DOJ doesn't like that. Oberstar doesn't like that. Even Ray Neidl just stated that there is a 30% chance the DOJ would go for that, and he said the hype for this merger is waning. The pieces of the puzzle just don't fit, like the AWA and USAir hubs and routes did. That was a great example of complimentary route structures. Airtran mentioned that the Midwest merger could happen because of "LACK OF OVERLAP." Same with UAL and CAL, there really is a good synergy there, with only one smaller hub close to another--CLE and ORD. USAir and DL have many hubs next to each other--CLT and ATL are 220nm apart, and each flies to the same cities from the hubs, meaning major overlap just 220nm apart, then throw in there CVG/PIT/PHL/JFK (same European flights from JFK and PHL) and the Shuttles. Then look at PHX/LAS/SLC/LAX hubs. Can you see where I am going with this? Job losses.
Politicians will fight this one.

Will Grinstein be around after this? No. That is probably good. I like our new guys (Whitehurst, Bastian, and Hauenstein), and I think they will do a great job. I hope we emerge alone, but if we have to merge, NWA would be better to fight a monster like UAL/CAL. Both of us would have Asia/Europe/South America routes. USAir doens't bring anyting to our table, except overlap, and a total of 18 different plane types. I can see why Parker is nervous.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

The Delta leadership only wants their reward of stock options upon exit from bankruptcy. USAir merges before exit and they get nothing. Delta still manages to rack up loses even after raping every employee and tossing the pilots pension. Why are the pilots so scared of USAir, Delta's management seems much worse. So you lose a few slots in the senority list, better than being back in bankruptcy in 6 months.

That doesn't make any sense. The DL management probably has stock or claims in future stock just like the rest of the unsecured creditors. They will make money regardless. Grinstein is already a very rich man, owning one of Bill Gate's past homes in SEA. He doens't need the money, all he wants now is the legacy. His wife is not happy in ATL, and would love to go back to SEA. He is 73 years old. Does he have to be here? No.

The problem, again, with USAir is the route overlap, and hubs being too close. The fleets aren't even close. It would be a huge mess. It will be opposed and the DOJ would never even get close to this one. Now, Airtran and Midwest, along with CAL and UAL all compliment each other. They fit like a puzzle, just like USAir and AWA did. That is not the case with DL.

And, we will be back in BK in 6 months? Huh? Maybe if USAir actually does get approval for this. You really under estimate our newer DL management. They have really turned this boat around. The only problem now is that we have a small tanker in our way of leaving port.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PHXFLYR]

Any comments, PHXflyr? Sounds like to me the lawyers HINTED on how to kill the deal.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Hinted,yes. But like any deal ,it is just one of many components that will be looked at and possibly resolved to everyones satisfaction,too. The knife can cut both ways ,General. It depends on how bad Parker and Kirby want this deal to go through and believe me,they want it bad. Let me ask you a question. If the United/Continental talks pick up steam and a merger occurs, do you, Grinstein et al think Delta will be able to survive long term as a stand alone company once out of bankruptcy court? The industry is getting ready to evolve General. And they aren't gonna stop and listen to DALPA you,me or any other FlightInfo webboard expert for that matter. Anyway,have a nice Christmas....


PHXFLYR

 

[800Dog]

Hinted,yes. But like any deal ,it is just one of many components that will be looked at and possibly resolved to everyones satisfaction,too. The knife can cut both ways ,General. It depends on how bad Parker and Kirby want this deal to go through and believe me,they want it bad. Let me ask you a question. If the United/Continental talks pick up steam and a merger occurs, do you, Grinstein et al think Delta will be able to survive long term as a stand alone company once out of bankruptcy court? The industry is getting ready to evolve General. And they aren't gonna stop and listen to DALPA you,me or any other FlightInfo webboard expert for that matter. My advise to you? Deal with it! Have a nice Christmas....


PHXFLYR

NWA would be a better fit than USAir for Delta. USAir could find itself going it alone.

 

[General Lee]

Hinted,yes. But like any deal ,it is just one of many components that will be looked at and possibly resolved to everyones satisfaction,too. The knife can cut both ways ,General. It depends on how bad Parker and Kirby want this deal to go through and believe me,they want it bad. Let me ask you a question. If the United/Continental talks pick up steam and a merger occurs, do you, Grinstein et al think Delta will be able to survive long term as a stand alone company once out of bankruptcy court? The industry is getting ready to evolve General. And they aren't gonna stop and listen to DALPA you,me or any other FlightInfo webboard expert for that matter. Anyway,have a nice Christmas....


PHXFLYR

The DOJ will kill this deal anyway. If CAL and UAL get together, look for NWA to possibly aquire DL. That would be a better fit. I don't care how bad Parker and Kirby want it, it doesn't fit, and everyone except them knows that. Eliminating the competition is not looked upon favorably by the GOVT. Too many cities will lose service and CHOICE. Oberstar fights for the consumer and for his constituents, in MN. Where is NWA based? Now, if NWA gets into the mix, Boeing will likely look to have a DC9 replacement, and then swing their votes towards a NWA/DL merger. Yes, the industry will evolve, and if it includes mergers, only ones that fit logically (like the AWA/US merger did) will occur. Parker may have started something that will end up leaving his own airline in the open by themselves. And, have a nice Christmas too. I have nothing against you guys, I just don't think this merger will work.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PHXFLYR]

NWA would be a better fit than USAir for Delta. USAir could find itself going it alone.

Could be...but the same can be said for Delta especially since you guys are on the record as stating you want to emerge as a stand alone carrier. Parkers and his minions have stated just the opposite and are actively looking to merge. If not Delta it will be someone else,maybe in a different form than the offer that currently exists out there today. And do you really want to be a part of NWA? My friends there tell me it's a miserable place to work in terms of morale and labor relations. If the "fit" is as good as you claim,how come Grinstein has approached them to discuss a merger? Might be more to it than fit,Dog

PHXFLYR

 

[General Lee]

Could be...but the same can be said for Delta especially since you guys are on the record as stating you want to emerge as a stand alone carrier. Parkers and his minions have stated just the opposite and are actively looking to merge. If not Delta it will be someone else,maybe in a different form than the offer that currently exists out there today. And do you really want to be a part of NWA? My friends there tell me it's a miserable place to work in terms of morale and labor relations. If the "fit" is as good as you claim,how come Grinstein has approached them to discuss a merger? Might be more to it than fit,Dog

PHXFLYR

Parker should have gone after NWA instead of DL. There is very little route overlap, and the hubs of NWA are not close to USAir's. (MSP, DTW, MEM, and ANC for Cargo) The fleets are closer (more Airbus and 757 equipment--and both of you are the only US airlines flying the A330) and NW is also in BK cutting costs. But, Parker chose the airline that had almost the SAME route structure, hubs right next to each other, planes that aren't even close (except 757s, but they have different engines), and nothing new is brought to the table (like Asian routes owned by NW). He picked the wrong one. Now, NWA may turn it around and pick DL, and Boeing could swing that way if NWA orders DC9 replacements. (NWA already has 787 orders with Boeing) Parker may find himself all alone, looking at Spirit or USA3000....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[800Dog]

Could be...but the same can be said for Delta especially since you guys are on the record as stating you want to emerge as a stand alone carrier. Parkers and his minions have stated just the opposite and are actively looking to merge. If not Delta it will be someone else,maybe in a different form than the offer that currently exists out there today. And do you really want to be a part of NWA? My friends there tell me it's a miserable place to work in terms of morale and labor relations. If the "fit" is as good as you claim,how come Grinstein has approached them to discuss a merger? Might be more to it than fit,Dog

PHXFLYR

One of my best friends works for NWA. Says it is like everywhere else, miserable in terms of management/employee relations. Yes, I had rather merge with them. They bring something to the table Delta needs, the pacific. USAir brings nothing. I think in your 2nd to last sentence you mean to say why has Grinstein "not" approached NWA to discuss a merger. You, nor I, have any idea if this has happened or not! Happy Kwanza bro.

 

[xanderman]

well...

I agree with most of what has been said here but I would like to reiterate that this is about ONE thing! MONEY!!! If parker and the boys can convince the creditors they will get a better deal then it is done. Period. I know, I know. The Gov. Well the Gov. will be easily satisfied if their money is right. Money talks and BS walks...

Tell you what though. I sure don't want to be left standing out in the rain by ourselves if this merger mania goes down.

Andy

 

[800Dog]

I agree with most of what has been said here but I would like to reiterate that this is about ONE thing! MONEY!!! If parker and the boys can convince the creditors they will get a better deal then it is done. Period. I know, I know. The Gov. Well the Gov. will be easily satisfied if their money is right. Money talks and BS walks...

Tell you what though. I sure don't want to be left standing out in the rain by ourselves if this merger mania goes down.

Andy

What he said!

 

[General Lee]

I agree with most of what has been said here but I would like to reiterate that this is about ONE thing! MONEY!!! If parker and the boys can convince the creditors they will get a better deal then it is done. Period. I know, I know. The Gov. Well the Gov. will be easily satisfied if their money is right. Money talks and BS walks...

Tell you what though. I sure don't want to be left standing out in the rain by ourselves if this merger mania goes down.

Andy

I agree with most of what you say. Money does talk. Our guys will have to convince the unsecured creditors (or the majority of them) that they can match USAir's offer, or have better deals for long term financial gain for them. Many of the creditors want their money NOW. We know that. Plus, a takeover would result in even more time in BK (trying to change contracts, etc), which would result in a longer wait for the creditors anyway. It will be interesting to see what happens for sure. But, we know the stakes. And, the Gov't shot down the USAir/UAL deal for a lot less overlap. (just DCA/IAD)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PHXFLYR]

One of my best friends works for NWA. Says it is like everywhere else, miserable in terms of management/employee relations. Yes, I had rather merge with them. They bring something to the table Delta needs, the pacific. USAir brings nothing. I think in your 2nd to last sentence you mean to say why has Grinstein "not" approached NWA to discuss a merger. You, nor I, have any idea if this has happened or not! Happy Kwanza bro.

You're right! That is what I meant to say. And "Mozel Tof" right back at'cha!!



PHXFLYR

 

[800Dog]

You're right! That is what I meant to say. And "Mozel Tof" right back at'cha!!



PHXFLYR

Slightly off topic but more fun to discuss. Any of you PHX guys been to the burger joint in Tempe that sells the triple bypass burger. Waitresses wear nurse uniforms. I vote that if the merger goes through, we meet their to discuss seniority list integration! Can I get an Amen? First round will be on the General.

 

[Flys4Fun]

....so General Lee is pro-merger?

 

[FDJ2]

Parkers and his minions have stated just the opposite and are actively looking to merge. If not Delta it will be someone else,maybe in a different form than the offer that currently exists out there today.
PHXFLYR

Looks like Parker is desperate to find a dance partner.