Q's for the ASA coalition

[Muff-N-Man]

Nice proposal guys, well thought out. But I want numbers. The company offered a pay increase already - 1.5%. How much better are you gonna do?
They offerred 1.60 per diem, how much you gonna get us? What kind of duty rigs, and are you going to say nothing less than SkyWest?
The long call/short call thing's been done.
What QOL improvements?
Why a signing bonus in lieu of back pay?

You get my point? The last company proposal offered everything you say your going to get (minus a bonus). How are you going to do better? And what is the minimum your going to accept?

 

[Airboss]

I assume u are talking about the Fab 4 that Brian Wilson promoted?

 

[John Pennekamp]

The Jackson 5? You won't hear them on here. They even muzzled Joe Merchant Breiling until the election is over.

They're hoping to win on name recognition without having to give real numbers. They are running on the philosophy of "say whatever it takes to get elected, then do whatever you want once you're in".

 

[ASARJMan]

"say whatever it takes to get elected, then do whatever you want once you're in".

So true, and then reap whatever benefits BL, CT and SH have promised them!

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[AV8700]

Nice proposal guys, well thought out. But I want numbers. The company offered a pay increase already - 1.5%. How much better are you gonna do?
They offerred 1.60 per diem, how much you gonna get us? What kind of duty rigs, and are you going to say nothing less than SkyWest?
The long call/short call thing's been done.
What QOL improvements?
Why a signing bonus in lieu of back pay?

You get my point? The last company proposal offered everything you say your going to get (minus a bonus). How are you going to do better? And what is the minimum your going to accept?

With out scope (with Skywest, Inc.) nothing agreed to matters.

 

[FightingIrish]

Question for the fab 4 opposition.

What are you going to do to get things moving and stop the transfer of airplanes to Skywest. Are you going to continue with the current strategy and if so, when will you get back to the table? What are you going to do to prevent our jobs from being transferred. I have spoken to 2 of the fab 4 and they are making job security priority number 1. What is the opposition saying besides personal attacks?

 

[atlcrjdriver]

All the current MEC will tell you is "Stay The Course". Even GW has figured out that it's not working...

 

[FightingIrish]

All the current MEC will tell you is "Stay The Course". Even GW has figured out that it's not working...

Sometimes "stay the course" isn't the best choice.

At a recent recurrent ground school, Dave N. was asked about this issue. Specifically, he was asked about the ALPA petition to the NMB requesting a release. He said he didn't expect the NMB to grant the request for a release. Then he was asked what is our next move is. His answer was "we don't know what the next move is". I like Dave, and I know he is trying, but to be honest that doesn't make me feel good about the current leadership.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I assume u are talking about the Fab 4 that Brian Wilson promoted?

I prefer to call them the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

But like Muff asked, how about something more than a pseudo toilet seat cover in my V-file with vague promises.

 

[FightingIrish]

I prefer to call them the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

But like Muff asked, how about something more than a pseudo toilet seat cover in my V-file with vague promises.

What is the other side offering for our vote? Is the other side offering status quo and "stay the course"?

 

[ReportCanoa]

Seriously people, do you honestly think ASA is going to be around long-term? Am I the only one who sees the writing on the wall? And this has nothing to do with the pilots, but a master plan that we have no say in. I say lets burn it down. Coalition of 4, the Three Amigos, or whatever. Who really cares anymore.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

IMHO, ASA will be incorporated into SKW Inc. much like the CHQ Republic Shuttle etc... corp. We will not go away b/c SKW Inc needs us to prevent conflict between the UAL/DL agreements.

 

[FightingIrish]

Seriously people, do you honestly think ASA is going to be around long-term? Am I the only one who sees the writing on the wall? And this has nothing to do with the pilots, but a master plan that we have no say in. I say lets burn it down. Coalition of 4, the Three Amigos, or whatever. Who really cares anymore.

I think your attitude it echoed by some of the current ALPA leadership. Some of us disagree and think ASA could have a bright future. Some of us are tired of the "burn it down" attitude.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Question for the fab 4 opposition.

What are you going to do to get things moving and stop the transfer of airplanes to Skywest. Are you going to continue with the current strategy and if so, when will you get back to the table? What are you going to do to prevent our jobs from being transferred. I have spoken to 2 of the fab 4 and they are making job security priority number 1. What is the opposition saying besides personal attacks?

Generally, in a debate, the burden of proof is on the opponent, not the incumbent.

The current MEC's record is clear. If you think the entire 4 year delay is the MEC's fault, you're seriously deluding yourself.

The question of a game plan goes to the Jackson 5. HOW do they plan to achieve their goals when the entire administration we call ALPA has taken 4+ years? Let's hear more than "we can do it because we're different". Let's hear a GAME PLAN!!!!

 

[ASADriver]

Nice proposal guys, well thought out. But I want numbers. The company offered a pay increase already - 1.5%. How much better are you gonna do?
They offerred 1.60 per diem, how much you gonna get us? What kind of duty rigs, and are you going to say nothing less than SkyWest?
The long call/short call thing's been done.
What QOL improvements?
Why a signing bonus in lieu of back pay?

You get my point? The last company proposal offered everything you say your going to get (minus a bonus). How are you going to do better? And what is the minimum your going to accept?

So let me get this straight. The improvements this group is promising have already been agreed to, but we are still yelling about how the company wants us to take concessions? Which is it?

 

[atlcrjdriver]

The current MEC's record is clear. If you think the entire 4 year delay is the MEC's fault, you're seriously deluding yourself.

This four year plane crash as in any disaster is due to a series of events that lead were we are now.. It's not entirely the MEC's fault nor is it entirely managment's fault. Both sides have made grave errors in judgement that have draged this out to the mess we are in now. The question is do we continue to make the same mistakes or do we learn from our past errors and fix the problems to get this done?

It appears to me that the MEC believes we are still negotiating directly w/ DL under thier rules and negotiating tactics. Fact is we are not and we need to change our mindset to deal w/ our new owners at SKW Inc. Does this mean role over and play dead, No. Yet, with new players comes new rules and must be amendable to our new environment to get what we are seeking. If that means that we need a new starting line up in the MEC then so be it.

 

[John Pennekamp]

This four year plane crash as in any disaster is due to a series of events that lead were we are now.. It's not entirely the MEC's fault nor is it entirely managment's fault. Both sides have made grave errors in judgement that have draged this out to the mess we are in now. The question is do we continue to make the same mistakes or do we learn from our past errors and fix the problems to get this done?

It appears to me that the MEC believes we are still negotiating directly w/ DL under thier rules and negotiating tactics. Fact is we are not and we need to change our mindset to deal w/ our new owners at SKW Inc. Does this mean role over and play dead, No. Yet, with new players comes new rules and must be amendable to our new environment to get what we are seeking. If that means that we need a new starting line up in the MEC then so be it.

Well, we may have to agree to disagree, but I don't think a change in MEC leadership will improve our chances. All it will do is allow some individuals who have done it before to sell us out for personal gain... again.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

After 4 years of being in the trenchs w/ DL the present CNC is tired and battle hardend. It is tx that we brought in fresh troops to finish this up.

 

[John Pennekamp]

After 4 years of being in the trenchs w/ DL the present CNC is tired and battle hardend. It is tx that we brought in fresh troops to finish this up.

As I said on the other post, you're not bringing in fresh troops. You're firing all the troops and the generals, training new ones, then trying to leap back into battle with a bunch of FNGs.

I think that's a very dangerous and foolish strategy.

 

[jegermeister]

With out scope (with Skywest, Inc.) nothing agreed to matters.

Don't give away what we've already won in this new contract for scope. Scope is a great idea in concept, but nearly impossible to make it stick in the real world.

The contract at ALG before the J4J contract gave up a lot for section 1 (scope). It turned out it wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

For example, we had a no furlough clause that protected the people on the list at the date of signing. Sounded like a good idea. By the time we needed it, so many with protection had already gone and so many new people had come on to the property that the only way it would have helped is if they had gotten rid of over half the company. Which they nearly did through furloughs and attrition. As far as transfer of assets were concerned, it got so bad the our company logo on the side of the plane was made into a sticker vs. being painted. So that it could easily be switched from ALG to PDT and back.

Remember that these two companys were both owned by USAir group and both were ALPA carriers. They had also filed a single carrier pettion (to no Avail).

If you are thinking that scope and ALPA coming to Skywest will save the day, you need only look at the folks at ALG now PDT to see how well it works.

I've said this before, we will not get any meaningful advances in ASA's contract until Skywest is done with their union vote. Jerry is trying his hardest to keep APLA off the property. He's not going to give his own people any reason to believe they need a union.

The only way these four folks are going to get a deal before that is to sign a sub par agreement. Is that entirely bad? I don't know. ALG lost the jets to PSA because of our strong contract and their weak MEC.

Who knows what will happen to us. The future of ASA may be tied not only financial decisions, but also emotional ones left from the negotiation of this contract.

Ein kleine Jegermeister

 

[jegermeister]

Maybe I missed it on another thread but what are these four bringing to the table? More specifically why are they so sure of a quick agreement? No flame, I just want an informed vote.

Joe M.?

Anybody?

 

[601Pilot]

I think your attitude it echoed by some of the current ALPA leadership. Some of us disagree and think ASA could have a bright future. Some of us are tired of the "burn it down" attitude.

Luckily, the majority of us have the "burn it down" attitude. I think that's the only attitude that will either bring the company down or get a contract worth anything. We'll see!

 

[VeeOne]

Luckily, the majority of us have the "burn it down" attitude. I think that's the only attitude that will either bring the company down or get a contract worth anything. We'll see!

Luckily?!? What sort of brain injury did you sustain? Newflash for you 601- what we have NOW ain't all that bad. Why don't you take a nice look around and see just what it is your gonna' end up with if you do manage to "burn it down".

Also, I dissagree with your version of "majority". That being predicated on the 93% strike vote (of which only 85% of our pilot group voted on, and also excluded probationary newhires). Oh, and not to mention many voted "In Favor" in an effort to give our MEC the upper hand in negotiations. Many pilots would not have voted to approve this if they had realized that self destruction was assured (with the mantra "STAY THE COURSE") for a strike. Sit back and watch as ASA becomes part of the "Don't let this happen to you" club when we walk.

 

[FightingIrish]

Luckily, the majority of us have the "burn it down" attitude. I think that's the only attitude that will either bring the company down or get a contract worth anything. We'll see!

When I go to work, I definately don't see a majority with this attitude. The "burn it down" attitude is definately the minority. I voted to strike, but I am not in the "burn it down" group. Those of you who are in that group would be better served going somewhere else. You probably won't even get the chance to burn it down, so you might as well go somewhere your more happy.

 

[ohplease!]

Luckily, the majority of us have the "burn it down" attitude. I think that's the only attitude that will either bring the company down or get a contract worth anything. We'll see!

10 people on FI is NOT a "majority" of 1800. Sorry to burst your bubble. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

 

[601Pilot]

Luckily?!? What sort of brain injury did you sustain? Newflash for you 601- what we have NOW ain't all that bad. Why don't you take a nice look around and see just what it is your gonna' end up with if you do manage to "burn it down".

Also, I dissagree with your version of "majority". That being predicated on the 93% strike vote (of which only 85% of our pilot group voted on, and also excluded probationary newhires). Oh, and not to mention many voted "In Favor" in an effort to give our MEC the upper hand in negotiations. Many pilots would not have voted to approve this if they had realized that self destruction was assured (with the mantra "STAY THE COURSE") for a strike. Sit back and watch as ASA becomes part of the "Don't let this happen to you" club when we walk.

I guess I sustained a significant one, I still work here! I don't know where you worked before you came to ASA, but it must have been pretty bad if you think this place is great or even good. I guess if I was instructing in a 1950 172 and then came to ASA, I would think ASA was better. For most of us that have had jobs previous to this one, this one is not that great. Some of you guys on this board think ASA is the best and last hope for employment in the world! If ASA goes under, it would not hurt my feelings a bit. I'm sure a majority of the people in Atlanta would agree, especially if ASA was replaced with a better managed company that could actually maintain an on-time schedule and get their bags to the correct destination. What a concept! Most of the problems with ASA is not the results of the pilots, but at least we have the influence to change some of them.

 

[VeeOne]

I guess I sustained a significant one, I still work here! I don't know where you worked before you came to ASA, but it must have been pretty bad if you think this place is great or even good. I guess if I was instructing in a 1950 172 and then came to ASA, I would think ASA was better. For most of us that have had jobs previous to this one, this one is not that great. Some of you guys on this board think ASA is the best and last hope for employment in the world! If ASA goes under, it would not hurt my feelings a bit. I'm sure a majority of the people in Atlanta would agree, especially if ASA was replaced with a better managed company that could actually maintain an on-time schedule and get their bags to the correct destination. What a concept! Most of the problems with ASA is not the results of the pilots, but at least we have the influence to change some of them.

Yup- my job prior to ASA tried to kill me a number of times. Bad airplanes, bad equipment, and bad management before I came here. I don't have ANY dual given time so I can't help you with that. However, I can say with some degree of certainty that ATLANTA itself is a host of most of the problems. Any airline that passes through Atlanta, regardless of who runs it, is going to suffer from the same problems and to the same extent that we at ASA face. I wish that we had access to the EXACT data for Chautauqua and Mesa regarding Atlanta performance and statistics-I think it would strengthen my point. Also, as far as being late- some of the late departures are brought on by the pilots in the face of our current contract status- can't say I blame those that do, as I have been known delay things as much as I can myself. Although my last round trip on a four day or one before a great layover always seems to leave on time.

Now, with that being said- Leadership examples are set for others to follow from the VERY top. I cannot say that I am pleased with our current leadership examples as set forth by BL or even CT. Personally, I think Aiken lost his chance to totally transform us by firstly GUTTING all of the poor managment that we had under Delta ownership. Problems follow the people, and BL has not helped to stem the tide. I whole heartedly believe we are playing pitty games of stepping over dollars to pick up pennies. My frustration isn't for the company, but for those that run it. ASA has capable employees and labor, a fruitful flying contract, a strong hub, outstanding maintenance and professional pilots. The previously listed isn't worth "burning to the ground", when all it needs is a decapitation. However, all of these things are a waste under a management that toils blindly in the dark with no direction- just like a ship with no rudder!

 

[ASARJMan]

However, all of these things are a waste under a management that toils blindly in the dark with no direction- just like a ship with no rudder!

Very true. Under G&J we had some leadership. Things began to go downhill under Skippy, and now Brian. Both of these gentlemen 'retired' from DAL, and sought to run ASA as they did DAL, and look where DAL is today. As you mentioned "no direction", I couldn't agree more. These managers wait for someone to tell them what to do, DAL at one point, and now JA and SKYW.

JA had a prime opportunity to turn around the ASA culture, and choose not to do so that he could become the next Frank Lorenzo. A real shame to let that opportunity go.

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[ASApuppy]

10 people on FI is NOT a "majority" of 1800. Sorry to burst your bubble. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

My vote is to burn this place down. Unless this a radical shift from management, my goal is to bankrupt Skywest Inc. Probably won't go that far, but I'm trying every day. I plan on using the Fab 4, actually the Jackson 5 as kindling.

ps. VeeOne is Joe Mercent in sheeps clothing. Does that hag girlfriend of yours know this Joey?

 

[ohplease!]

My vote is to burn this place down. Unless this a radical shift from management, my goal is to bankrupt Skywest Inc. Probably won't go that far, but I'm trying every day. I plan on using the Fab 4, actually the Jackson 5 as kindling.

ps. VeeOne is Joe Mercent in sheeps clothing. Does that hag girlfriend of yours know this Joey?

keep this one thing in mind: I have printed this out to keep in the unlikely event I can figure out who you are and I'll pass this along to the powers that be.

To have disagreements with the way a company is managed is one thing but, to intentionally try to damage ANY company is criminal. Its not simply ASA or SkyW, its me and the several other thousand people that work here and SkyW and Delta.