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JBLU in hot water with FAA

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FDJ2

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Pilot-Fatigue Test Lands JetBlue
In Hot Water
Airline Pushed FAA Limits
On Cockpit Time but Failed To Tell Passengers on Planes
By ANDY PASZTOR and SUSAN CAREY
October 21, 2006

EMBARGOED!Last year, thousands of JetBlue Airways passengers became unwitting participants in a highly unusual test of pilot fatigue.

Without seeking approval from Federal Aviation Administration headquarters, consultants for JetBlue outfitted a small number of pilots with devices to measure alertness. Operating on a green light from lower-level FAA officials, management assigned the crews to work longer shifts in the cockpit -- as many as 10 to 11 hours a day -- than the eight hours the government allows. Their hope: Showing that pilots could safely fly far longer without exhibiting ill effects from fatigue.

The results of the test haven't yet been made public -- they are expected to be published by the end of the year -- and JetBlue executives say even they don't know the findings. But the experiment has landed JetBlue in hot water while fueling a fierce debate within the airline industry about how long pilots should be allowed to stay at the controls.
[Bulleted List]

At a time when every airline is itching to cut costs, squeezing more flying time from pilots has become a huge financial issue for carriers. But it is also a hot topic for regulators: The National Transportation Safety Board has cited pilot fatigue as an increasingly important factor in aviation accidents.

It has been nearly 18 months since the novel experiment, but the test -- along with the FAA's ultimate conclusion that it amounted to a backdoor effort to skirt safety rules -- continues to roil parts of the aviation world. Senior FAA officials, angered by the move, privately say the airline's approach has backfired. Because of heightened emotions about the test, proposals to extend the workday for commercial pilots have been pushed even further down the list of priorities at the FAA, they say.

FAA headquarters heard about the test from pilot-union officials and their supporters. When the head office "became aware that JetBlue operated some domestic flights outside the standard rules, we immediately investigated and took corrective action," said James Ballough, head of flight standards for the agency. Mr. Ballough says officials are "confident that JetBlue's pilots are flying to the FAA's rules" now.

Another high-ranking FAA policy maker expressed his displeasure more bluntly: "We don't allow experiments with passengers on board, period."

The airline says it never intended to mislead anyone at the FAA, and the JetBlue spokeswoman chalked the situation up to "a miscommunication," though, she says, in retrospect the company understands "we have to widen the circle of consultation." JetBlue said: "Safety is our bedrock value. It is the fundamental promise we make, and keep, to our customers and crew members."

The spokeswoman says there were no in-flight emergencies during the test period, and safety was never compromised because a third pilot was always on board to take the controls if needed. The JetBlue pilots who participated in the experiment volunteered for the assignment.

The concept of measuring second-by-second reactions of JetBlue pilots in everyday flight conditions was championed by Mark Rosekind, a well-known sleep researcher who previously has worked as a consultant for a number of large U.S. and foreign carriers.

JetBlue looked to Mr. Rosekind and his Cupertino, Calif., consulting firm, Alertness Solutions, to help sell the data-gathering idea to regulators. The overall plan was laid out in early 2005 for the FAA's district office in New York, which is responsible for overseeing the New York-based carrier's operations and its 1,500 pilots. That office expressed support for the plan.

The two-pilot crews were equipped with specially designed motion detectors on their wrists to measure activity, and participated in tests with hand-held computing devices that issued random prompts and then recorded the speed of responses. All told, JetBlue says 29 pilots, including the backup aviators, participated in more than 50 data-gathering flights during May 2005. All of the flights were domestic, and a big portion were coast-to-coast trips.

The carrier says it proceeded under the assumption that local FAA officials had the power to approve the company's plans under so-called supplemental flight rules. Those rules specify that airlines flying longer distances must have at least one extra pilot on board so no single pilot flies more than eight hours in total. However, in the JetBlue test, even though each flight had a third pilot on board, the original crews stayed at the controls for more than 10 hours a day. None of the reserve pilots ever replaced a regular crew member.

"Passengers would be shocked that this was going on," says David Stempler, president of Air Travelers Association, an advocacy group for travelers. When travelers "buy tickets on commercial flights, they don't expect to be test pilots themselves."

JetBlue isn't unionized, but once preliminary information about the flights started leaking out, pilot union leaders were quick to react. Union supporters complained to FAA headquarters, where red-faced senior officials acknowledged they were never informed about the initiative. As soon as agency leaders understood the significance of the local decision -- and realized some of JetBlue's competitors likely would start jockeying for similar efficiencies and economic benefits -- they hit the roof. An FAA spokeswoman says local FAA managers didn't have any comment.

Airlines often get approval from FAA district offices for various routine matters. But senior agency officials say that both the local office and JetBlue should have known that this was an exception because of the long-running and controversial nature of the issue.

The FAA reprimanded JetBlue, ordered it to clarify procedures as well as flight manuals and Mr. Ballough personally chastised management. But the agency closed its investigation without imposing any monetary fines on the carrier. Since then, FAA officials say headquarters has ordered closer scrutiny by inspectors of all JetBlue operations.

A scheduling breakthrough by JetBlue would set an important precedent, because the current rules have been largely unchanged for decades. While the industry's safety record has improved dramatically over the years, airline executives and pilot union leaders have continued to spar over what regulatory changes are necessary. The process is complicated by dramatic increases in cockpit automation, ever-growing flight lengths and the extra wear on pilots who cross multiple time zones during a single flight.

Mr. Rosekind declined repeated requests for comment about the JetBlue test.

JetBlue and some of its pilots argue that longer flight shifts could actually improve the quality of life for pilots and perhaps enhance their alertness. Flying from New York to California and back in the same workday, they say, would allow crews to sleep in their own beds, enjoy better rest and avoid hotel stays at odd hours that tend to disrupt natural sleep rhythms.

Revised regulations could present JetBlue with economic advantages over carriers such as AMR Corp.'s American Airlines or UAL Corp.'s United Airlines. Those two carriers and other large airlines with long histories are constrained by union contracts sometimes calling for more-restrictive scheduling than what is allowed by the FAA.

JetBlue, which took wing six years ago and expanded rapidly and profitably despite a severe downturn in the overall industry, recently has been brought down to earth by two consecutive quarters of red ink. That prompted the carrier to throttle back its expansion on long-haul routes, add more short flights, beef up its management team and raise its fares. So far, the efforts have returned the company to modest profit, although it is expected to report a break-even third quarter next week. The airline is now the eighth largest in the U.S. by passenger traffic.

Current and former NTSB members say they were told after the fact that JetBlue had done tests on pilot fatigue. But board Chairman Mark Rosenker says he was never told that pilots flew beyond typical FAA limits. Richard Healing, who stepped down from the board last year, says JetBlue's "arguments may have some merit," but "they need to be validated as part of a comprehensive study" on pilot fatigue.

Capt. Dave Bushy, who championed fatigue-reducing programs as vice president of flight operations before leaving the company earlier this month for another carrier, said JetBlue and the rest of the industry "can be a lot smarter when it comes to scheduling and the use of science," instead of just "living with 40-year-old regulations that don't enhance the safety equation."
 
"Pilot-Fatigue Test Lands JetBlue
In Hot Water
Airline Pushed FAA Limits
On Cockpit Time but Failed To Tell Passengers on Planes
By ANDY PASZTOR and SUSAN CAREY
October 21, 2006"



Okay....but was this really published and in what journal, mag or paper? Who do Andy Pasztor and Susan Carey write for?
 
"Pilot-Fatigue Test Lands JetBlue
In Hot Water
Airline Pushed FAA Limits
On Cockpit Time but Failed To Tell Passengers on Planes
By ANDY PASZTOR and SUSAN CAREY
October 21, 2006"



Okay....but was this really published and in what journal, mag or paper? Who do Andy Pasztor and Susan Carey write for?

Not that it matters, the story is what it is, but since you asked:


Andy Pasztor, senior special writer at the Los Angeles bureau of The Wall Street Journal, has more than 25 years experience covering local, national and international politics and business.

Susan Carey holds a BA in Communications from Michigan State University. She joined The Wall Street Journal's Pittsburgh bureau in 1981. Since then, she has worked in several other bureaus for the paper: Brussels, Hong Kong and Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. In each she started the paper's coverage of airlines, aerospace, travel and tourism. In 1993 she moved to the Chicago bureau, where she is responsible for airlines and travel
 
Move along now, nothing to see here, these are not the droids were looking for...

I thought they were just talking about doing this, not actually testing it?
 
Operating on a green light from lower-level FAA officials, management assigned the crews to work longer shifts in the cockpit -- as many as 10 to 11 hours a day -- than the eight hours the government allows.

Ha ha ha ha! I'll be thinking about that as I work my 20-hour (or sometimes more) day under subpart-S regulations...which is perfectly legal. After all, if we crash and die because of fatigue, it's only three stupid crewmembers, right?

:angryfire
 
Yawn. No pun intended! Sounds to me that the New York FAA office that was in charge of oversight regarding JetBlue approved the test. JetBlue, all too eager took the approval and ran with it. As far as making pax guinea pigs, I have to take exception. Whoopy Doo. 11 hours of flying. How about taking that crew that did a 5 hour trip and then sat for 6 hours and flew another 2 hour trip. Totally legal. Who is more tired? The FAA policy needs change and I am glad this happened. The change I am referring to is not extending the window but shutting down the amount of "productivity" time allowed between flights. Personally, I get more tired just sitting around than flying.
 
I still don't agree with changing a rule that leans on the side of safety. Next thing you know, these JB guys will want to change the retirement age to something crazy, like 65.....What's next? Wanting to live in Yonkers? Marrying your sister? (I need new material)


This part is great:

"JetBlue and some of its pilots argue that longer flight shifts could actually improve the quality of life for pilots and perhaps enhance their alertness. Flying from New York to California and back in the same workday, they say, would allow crews to sleep in their own beds, enjoy better rest and avoid hotel stays at odd hours that tend to disrupt natural sleep rhythms."


Enjoy better rest? How many commute or have crashpads near the JFK airport? Yeah, or they can go back to Yonkers and sleep with the bedbugs....great sleep, yep. And, they can sleep during the flight, especially on the last leg back into JFK, on the VOR13L app, in the snow..... Didn't Jetblue learn anything last year with the 300 or so diversions due to headwinds for gas? I saw 5 of them in SLC one afternoon, and 4 in DEN. That could add an additional hour or two onto a 10 flight hour day. But, they would say they wouldn't do those during the Winter probably....riiiight. And during the Summer there are never Thunderstorms in the NE? Nah.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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The JetBlue pilots who participated in the experiment volunteered for the assignment.

UFB!!

What if they all said, "No" - Probably would have called a guy on reserve. "F/O Smith - you'll be doing an LAX turn today. Here's a "watch" for you to wear..... don't take it off until we tell you. Have a nice flight.

I guess with no union they would have done it one way or the other.
 
How about the DL customers who ride on one of the seemingly countless RJs and T-props in JFK these days. Are they aware that those pilots have probably flown their 8th leg of the day and are on their 14th hour? Give me a break. Come on FDJ2 you can do better than that.
 
Ha ha ha ha! I'll be thinking about that as I work my 20-hour (or sometimes more) day under subpart-S regulations...which is perfectly legal. After all, if we crash and die because of fatigue, it's only three stupid crewmembers, right?

:angryfire

Mushroom:

Having flown with an organization that routinely flies 24 hour days (and that's just show to block in) for 16 years, the answer to your question, is unfortunately, yes.:(

Hag
 
There's nothing worse than a bored newspaper reporter with a deadline and no new material. Unless it's a television reporter. Or a bored pilot on FI.com. They all distort and rant..

First, the program was fully voluntary, I participated in the program.
The comment about using a reserve on the test is totaly BS. The test data is only good if you are part of the entire program from begining to end.

Actually the issue of having to assign a reserve pilot to one of these pairings [if they ever got approved], and the issue of any delays taking the flight past a 14 hour duty day are two reasons why this will probably never get approved.

The flights all start in the AM, and ended in the early evening. In the summer, they would be in the sunshine the whole trip. They would not be commutable, staying in NY the night before would be a necessity. The FAA mandated that we have a full 24hrs off between flights, so the FAA were following the program.

The FAA was involved, do you guys and the WSJ REALLY believe that ANY carrier would do a test without permission?? The real issue that the long-winded WSJ article is trying to get at is our FAA was involved, but maybe more permission was needed by the local guys who approved it?? Sounds like an FAA problem, not a JetBlue problem.

If you get permission, do you ask, really?? are you sure??, shouldn't you ask someone else for permission too???

The west coast turn flights were a piece of cake. Show, go, turn, return to JFK. All in a shorter duty day than dozens of pairings with 4-6 legs, and 'productivity sits' - that are perfectly legal.

On an average day, these flights would be great, but the issue of tech stops, ground delays, significant weather or illness resulting in using reserves etc will probably keep the west coast turns from being approved. Too bad, they were easy, MUCH easier than some of our 4-6 leg days up and down the east coast, those are back-breakers!!! BUT perfectly legal...

This is all old news dug up to fill a void in the paper, and if anyone did a search this has all been hashed and rehashed over at least a year ago on this forum.

Yes General, you need to get your sister married, you lust for her way too much.
:-)
.
 
Another pat on the back for a job well done JBLU pilots!

Management definitly needs more PRODUCTIVITY on your part, to reap more PROFITS and executive bonuses on our part.

And so what if we lose a plane every now and then with pilots falling asleep at the controls. My beancounters have already calculated costs vs. savings. What I am told is that the labor savings over a number of years will FAR outweigh any potential litigation from the families of those lost in a crash.

It's all about the bucks kid.

Thanks again JBLU pilots!
 
The only jb pilots that are behind this are the senior ones (in the top 4 hunny or so) that think they can do transcon turns and then be back at home each day, i.e. those pilots that live in nyc. They think they can get 95 hours in 10 days of work and their qol will go up. I THINK IT IS A BIG MISTAKE. And I think Mamma has a point as well when he talks about those "productivity breaks" I am seeing more and more in jb pairings.

But saying that jb pilots are behind this, or thanking them for messing something up is as retarded as saying all swa pilots want to fly past age 60 or that all cal are scabs, all nwa are a-holes, all delta pilots are mindless lemmings or all ups/fedex pilots are rich.

Oh sorry. All ups/fedex pilots are rich.
 
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BC, don't think you can find many jetblue pilots that were for it!
 
I hope not. Gotta love the "more to follow" post on bp from one of these sleep zombies though.
 
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What a bunch of retards.

Have you guys ever heard of NPRM? Their is a correct way to petition the FAA for a change to the regs. Any professional aviator knows this. Getting only local FAA FSDO approval is a JOKE! That's like asking the FA if it's OK for CNBC to bring a camera and a reporter on a flight, "but we had approval from a crew member". If the local FSDO inspector told you it was OK to fly beyond 60 to 65, that would make it OK?

Secondly, you don't have 12+ hours of day light from Nov-Feb out of JFK, which makes it impossible to do a "daylight turn" for 33% of the year. So you are trying to change the laws for something that can only be used 66% of the year?

Thirdly, better rest? give me a break. What is stopping a west coast guy from commuting in on the red eye on AA or UAL and then signing in for a B6 trans con turn? Some rest.

What time would you have to leave your house for one of these? for a 7am flight Anyone in NY knows traffic is insane,
All EST
3:30 am get up
4:00 in the car (1.5 hours of driving)
5:30 in the crew lot
6:00 am sign in
7:00 am flight
6 hour flight
13:00 arrival
14:00 Depart
5.5 hour flight
19:30 arrival
20:00 in the car
21:30 and you are pulling back into your drive way.

That's a nice 18 hour day, how many of these do I get to do in a month? Thanks for trying to improve our quality of life. Or should I ask, how many can I safely do, without smashing the car into a guard rail on the ride home?

Hiding behind terms like maximizing efficiency is a bunch of BS, how many JFK-LGB's could you do during "day light" one maybe two, they would have to depart at 7 and or 8 in the summer to return in daylight. You are looking at changing the laws we all live by so a few really senior B6 commuter pilots can increase their QofL.

Pathetic.
 
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OK ... I'll bite ...

Say the FAA does change the domestic 8hr flight time rule ...

Jet Blue leads the charge for increased work days ... the pilots must comply because it is 'legal' and due to a lack of a union can't throw the BS flag at management.

Now things get really interesting ...

Domestic air travel is a commodity ... for the most part.

Do other carriers, mine included, push us to adopt the new FAA/JB workday targets or do they launch an all out campaign (media) to differentiate JB as the carrier who pushes their pilots to this new 'and improved efficiency'? I don't know the answer, but it will not be boring while things shake out.

The Jet Blue pilot that said this is an initiative of a few senior pilots appears to me to be the underlying impetus. I can't believe B6 Flight Ops didn't run this up the flag pole with the head of Flight Standards before beginning a test program that runs counter to a FAR. This 'test' goes far beyond the POI / CMO level; it constitutes a change in public policy and warranted a nod from the boss at FAA Flight Standards.
 
That's a nice 18 hour day, how many of these do I get to do in a month? Thanks for trying to improve our quality of life. Or should I ask, how many can I safely do?

I don't disagree with the gist of what you write, but:

Unfortunenatly, that is indeed what the day looks like for many pilots. Seen many pilots commute in on the same day, then doing a trip across the pond, the pacific or domestic redeyes.

I do not agree with the jetblue program, nor do I approve of the current FAA scheduling limits, both disregard the realities of life and fattiguing practices.

The FAA has, for years now, promised a comprehensive review of FAR duty limits, but it has yet to happen. The europeans, under JAR, have much better rules, which take into account things like when the duty day started, how many legs etc. Doubtfull we will ever seen these rules reach our shores, the airlines would be against them.

As for your argument, that this should go the way of a NPRM, it could only qualify as such, in case there were evidence to back up the findings.

I wish the FAA would take the input that NASA has offered over the years, but that is unlikely to happen.
 
"As for your argument, that this should go the way of a NPRM, it could only qualify as such, in case there were evidence to back up the findings."

Not necessarly true. How did we get to domestic RVSM? The FAA did not let B6 or AA fly around with only 1000 foot seperation while the rest of us flew with 2000 feet.

As far as the duty limit's it's not up to you and I to determine what is safe. You and I are mandated to fly within the CFR's and this experiment was clearly outside the current rules.

What B6 pilots seem to forget is that the rules are made for the LCD. B6 has a fairly young pilot group. Guys can spend an entire career at AA witout ever having the seniority to fly a daylight LHR or an European crossing.

What they (and I know it's not you) will effect the oldest pilots at the legacy carriers. Subsequently they will call in sick or pull something to get off the flight (to maximize their pay) . Then some poor reserve schlub, gets hammered with the 3:00 AM wake up call from crew scheduling. Now he gets to do a transcon turn after getting to bed at what time the night before? Or worse he get's home after doing one of these and then gets called out to be the AM rush hour biatch for the early EWR flight to who knows where.
 
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You can argue about the validity of the flying all you want. What I take exception to is the article, FBJ2 and G4G5''s attempts to suggest that JetBlue did something illegal or unsafe by doing a little inhouse FAA APPROVED reserarch. The feds knew about this. They approved it and participated in it. Any attempt by someone inside the beltway or safely ensconced in OKC to say otherwise is simply a typical bureaucrats attempt at covering his own ass. If they don't like what happened they should take it up with the FSDO or POI that approved it. JetBlue did nothing wrong.
 
Hell, while we're at it..why not petition for a flight time extension for a Florida turn on the end of these?

Unbelievable.
 
Unfortunately, any NPRM efforts from jB will be from managements perspective. The pilots position will be largely.... silent...
 
I'm sure the test was reasonable and JB thought they had proper approval.

I just can't believe that the pilots are willing participants in extending already onerous flt/duty time limitations. We need to be pushing for reasonable rests, not extra flying time in a day so the companies can abuse us even more. It sickens me that the last shot at more reasonable regs was shut down over 10 years ago and has never resurfaced. Now we have a push in the opposite direction. What's next, airlines hiring 500 hour RJ pilots who can't upgrade in a year because they don't meet ATP mins? Oh, well..... nevermind. The tanking of the profession continues.
 
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