Legacy VS LCC

[mad691]

US legacy carriers have made substantial progress in becoming more competitive but still trail low-cost carriers in a number of areas related to labor efficiency, a new analysis by the US Dept. of Transportation's Bureau of Transportation Statistics confirms. The analysis, based on Form 41 data filed by seven network carriers and seven budget airlines, reveals that LCCs reduced the number of full-time-equivalent employees per aircraft by 16%, from 92 in the first quarter of 2001 to 77 in the first quarter of 2006, while the network carriers reduced their FTEs per aircraft by 23% but still averaged 99 at the end of the study period, 28.6% higher than the LCC group.
Among network carriers, United Airlines showed the largest gain as FTEs dropped 27.5% from 160 to 116. US Airways (which was counted in the network group, while America West Airlines was included in the LCC group) and Northwest Airlines had the fewest employees per aircraft at the end of the first quarter with 82.
In terms of percentage reduction in FTEs, JetBlue Airways led the low-cost group as it went from 127 in 2001 to 95 in 2006. In numeric terms, however, most LCCs did better: Spirit Airlines had 62 FTEs per aircraft as of the 2006 first quarter, followed by AirTran Airways (64), Southwest Airlines (70) and America West (83).
LCCs also boarded an average of 67% more passengers per FTE than their network counterparts, 195 to 117. Southwest led all airlines at 234 enplanements per FTE in the first quarter, up from 203 five years earlier. On a percentage basis, AirTran performed better, rising from 173 to 220. Among network airlines, US led the group with 149 enplanements and UA lagged at 102, although this was up from 65 in 2001. Overall, the network group improved from an average of 85 enplanements per FTE to 117, while the LCC group rose from 164 to 195.
Turning to compensation (salary plus benefits). network carriers reduced their annual compensation cost gap to $7,514 compared to $22,139 in 2001, BTS reported. Southwest's average annual compensation led the industry at $95,555. Among legacy airlines, NWA was highest at $91,613 and US was the lowest at $73,642. Among the LCCs, Frontier Airlines had the lowest average employee compensation at $55,432 and AirTran was second-lowest at $59,637.

by Perry Flint

 

[Gorilla]

Labor "efficiency" = DogDoo pay, bad working conditions, no retirement, and a slew of 22 yr olds who would fly an RJ for free, because "Look Mommy!! Me an airline pilot now!!"

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Doesn't matter, SWA labor costs are 3.23 cents a mile. The legacies are all around 2.2 cents a mile.

 

[EMBpilot]

I think it's all about ticket prices and survival of the middle class.

If it dies there will only be SWA to fly white trash (sorry, but true) and fractional to fly the rest 5% of population.

LCC's sure changed a lot of things - turns out there are people who don't mind flying 6 legs with 30 min breaks running to get a burger, 95 hours a month, 950 a year and have stock options as a pention plan. But I guess it was coming and there is nothing anyone could do.

 

[instructordude]

Labor "efficiency" = DogDoo pay, bad working conditions, no retirement, and a slew of 22 yr olds who would fly an RJ for free, because "Look Mommy!! Me an airline pilot now!!"

Whatever. How did you get your time before the airlines?

 

[crashpad]

If it dies there will only be SWA to fly white trash (sorry, but true) and fractional to fly the rest 5% of population.

LCC's sure changed a lot of things - turns out there are people who don't mind flying 6 legs with 30 min breaks running to get a burger, 95 hours a month, 950 a year and have stock options as a pention plan. But I guess it was coming and there is nothing anyone could do.

Where to begin....

"White Trash", as you so venomously and discriminately refer, are part of the life blood customer base which makes it possible for you to have the opportunity to fly for the airlines.
I say 'opportunity for you' because your reasoning betrays your ignorance and lack of experience.

There are no LCCs' with schedules you speak of, but there are plenty of wide-eyed pilots like yourself at Small Jet Feeders serving the legacies with Massa-Be-Good-To-Us mentality.

You sound a little wet behind the ears, so here's a bit of advice. Some folks don't have what it takes to serve the airline industrys' highest level. If you don't make it to the Big Boys, just remember you are still a valuable assest to GA (General Aviation) and you can certainly enjoy flying for a little extra cash on the side.

 

[JetFumes]

These posts always turn into a bullsh!t fest.

 

[N1atEcon]

"LCC's sure changed a lot of things - turns out there are people who don't mind flying 6 legs with 30 min breaks running to get a burger, 95 hours a month, 950 a year and have stock options as a pention plan."

I fly for a LCC, and it is (I think) the one that you are trying to slam.
Facts:
I cannot remember the last time I flew 6 legs. I cannot remember the last time I flew five legs. I did fly four legs one day last week though.
We have more 20 to 25 min turns. 30 min is usually after longer flights to get the AC cleaned, reprovisioned and crew changed if necessary.
Whats wrong with a burger? Are you one of thoses vegitarian, bunny hugging, prius driving, berkenstock wearing, no meat for me people?
We average 66 or 67 hrs a month.
Pention plans do not exsist where we work. We do have a good 401k that is all mine. It cannot be taken away when the company needs cash during hard times. We have stock options and profit sharing too. A pension would be great but the economics of today's competitve work enviornment don't support them any more. Pensions are a thing of the past I am sad to say.

My two cents is that your a guy who is pissed of because you hate your job flying an EMB. So you blame the LCC's for what you have done to yourself. Taken a low paying crappy job with terrible work rules. EMB's have done more damage to the mainline legacy way of life than any LCC has done.

 

[EMBpilot]

Crashpad,
Thanks. I know that WT is part of society and I made it to the "big boys". If you don't have schedules I spoke of good for you. I just enjoy my one leggers and 82 hour months and not planning to hate my job any time soon.

N1,
Thanks. Nothing personal, but we both understand that the LCC's changed the industry in not a good way with regard to pilot's QOL, benefits and pay. Just look at Walmart and say Dillard's as an analogy.
What is so great about 20-25 min turns? Send FO to get some lunch as you get the plane ready? 66 hours - I just don't believe it, sorry. 401K's are great and the stock pensions, but it's never going to beat B plans with 10-19% of your salary put in by the company - not your money, but company's. Just put in there for your efforts. Pensions are things of the past? Sorry, I don't like that statement - sounds a little along the lines of the race to the bottom to me. I think any new hire pilot shouldn't even worry about his/hers financial situation after retirement.

And it doesn't matter what kind of guy I am and especially whom I am upset at. Once upon the time I have taken EMB (prop by the way) job at a regional to get to a major, which was always my goal - to build up the profession, not to undercut it.

Thanks for your time, guys.

 

[instructordude]

Crashpad,

Thanks. I know that WT is part of society and I made it to the "big boys". If you don't have schedules I spoke of good for you. I just enjoy my one leggers and 82 hour months and not planning to hate my job any time soon.

You sound a bit lazy and a bit on the "I'm entitled to not work much and get paid a lot" bus.

 

[Palomino]

let's face it: there are many parties responsible for the state of the pilot profession these days.

1) LCCs? ok. they sweep thru a hub and plunge the prices. that hurts. but they still make money...for a while. do i fault a guy for flying 110 hrs a month who works there? nope. he can fly a lot less or more if he chooses.

2) RJs? ok. they plugged into old mainline routes and stemmed the bleeding for a while. it seems those times are changing as mainline aircraft are filling back in (unless the planes are farmed out as in some cases still). i'm still of the firm belief that there is no such thing as an RJ. if it says Boeing on the side or Airbus then it never seems to get the label of RJ.

3) Pensions dead? ok. that's truly up to the unionized worker and depends on the strength of their resolve. our A fund is frozen - i won't get one. but we have a B fund that is 100% vested and is mine if i leave or otherwise. this is in addition to 401k and profit sharing. should we just throw our hands up and hand that back to them as well? no thanks.

4) Poor management. ok. this is nothing new. few airlines ever attract the top business minds. the few greats that arrive usually stick around because they actually have some amount of pride in the work. the rest are grab & run in the classic mold of corporate raiders. nothing new here.

5) Oil prices? ok. funny how we have given huge concessions at most airlines that have no relationship with the volatile price of oil. it will be years before we recover our concessions...yet it has taken just a few months for oil prices to subside. annual profits by the motherlode in latest earnings reports? wow. it's a miracle. how'd they do that?

all of these points are bleedingly obvious. we are all responsible in some way. whether we lived beyond our means, didn't prepare for our future, allowed management to take our money, or not having the vision to deal with market forces. we all share a piece of the thrift store pie.

now if we can all stop blaming each other and focus on each of our carrier's strengths...i think we can all make money in this business. a lot of money. the people are back, oil is down, int'l travel is flourishing.

but save some for a rainy day. a very long deluge when it comes.

 

[The_Russian]

Labor "efficiency" = DogDoo pay, bad working conditions, no retirement, and a slew of 22 yr olds who would fly an RJ for free, because "Look Mommy!! Me an airline pilot now!!"

Well said!

Whatever. How did you get your time before the airlines?

By not masturbating while thinking about RJs.

 

[canyonblue]

- turns out there are people who don't mind flying 6 legs..........

Actually I'm flying 8. Of course that is the total for my 3 day trip, the next 3 weeks. I never put much credit into any pilot who is too embarrassed to post where they work. BTW, where do you work EMB?

 

[EMBpilot]

Actually I'm flying 8. Of course that is the total for my 3 day trip, the next 3 weeks. I never put much credit into any pilot who is too embarrassed to post where they work. BTW, where do you work EMB?

Why did you decide I am too embarrassed to post the name of my employer?
Sorry, for not being clear enough - I meant 6 legs a day. May be an exaduration and no, I am not a lazy guy, but I do have life outside of work.

I work at CAL, which is not a perfect place by any means. However, even if I worked at a LCC, regional or anywhere else I don't think I would 've had different opinion.
If now it takes 90$ to fly cross-country and the pensions are going away, etc. - I don't believe it's a good thing..




Good luck to all.

 

[AA717driver]

I hate to break it to you guys but if you do a comparison between the legacy's "contracts" and the LCC's working conditions, I don't see a whole lot of difference.

NWA, Delta, UAL and USAir all have crappy contracts. AA has not had theirs gutted only because they gave up to avoid Ch.11. FedEx and UPS don't count.

So who is entitled to sling $h!t about anyone's working conditions these days?TC

 

[Ty Webb]

We're not working as hard as you think. . . . .

I flew under 600 hours last year at my LCC and got paid for about 1000 hrs. I didn't do any 5 leg days, and have never seen a 6 leg day, whatever that would look like.

As for retirement, I had about 13,000 in Company B Fund contribution added to my 401K . . . . . and some stock options, too, but those aren't worth a whole lot right now.

 

[Tref]

US legacy carriers have made substantial progress in becoming more competitive but still trail low-cost carriers in a number of areas related to labor efficiency, a new analysis by the US Dept. of Transportation's Bureau of Transportation Statistics confirms. The analysis, based on Form 41 data filed by seven network carriers and seven budget airlines, reveals that LCCs reduced the number of full-time-equivalent employees per aircraft by 16%, from 92 in the first quarter of 2001 to 77 in the first quarter of 2006, while the network carriers reduced their FTEs per aircraft by 23% but still averaged 99 at the end of the study period, 28.6% higher than the LCC group.
Among network carriers, United Airlines showed the largest gain as FTEs dropped 27.5% from 160 to 116. US Airways (which was counted in the network group, while America West Airlines was included in the LCC group) and Northwest Airlines had the fewest employees per aircraft at the end of the first quarter with 82.
In terms of percentage reduction in FTEs, JetBlue Airways led the low-cost group as it went from 127 in 2001 to 95 in 2006. In numeric terms, however, most LCCs did better: Spirit Airlines had 62 FTEs per aircraft as of the 2006 first quarter, followed by AirTran Airways (64), Southwest Airlines (70) and America West (83).
LCCs also boarded an average of 67% more passengers per FTE than their network counterparts, 195 to 117. Southwest led all airlines at 234 enplanements per FTE in the first quarter, up from 203 five years earlier. On a percentage basis, AirTran performed better, rising from 173 to 220. Among network airlines, US led the group with 149 enplanements and UA lagged at 102, although this was up from 65 in 2001. Overall, the network group improved from an average of 85 enplanements per FTE to 117, while the LCC group rose from 164 to 195.
Turning to compensation (salary plus benefits). network carriers reduced their annual compensation cost gap to $7,514 compared to $22,139 in 2001, BTS reported. Southwest's average annual compensation led the industry at $95,555. Among legacy airlines, NWA was highest at $91,613 and US was the lowest at $73,642. Among the LCCs, Frontier Airlines had the lowest average employee compensation at $55,432 and AirTran was second-lowest at $59,637.

by Perry Flint

This has to be one of the dumbest articles I have ever seen. Of course legacies have more FTEs per aircraft than LCCs, because they also fly wide-body, long-haul routes, as opposed to strictly narrow-body, short to medium length segments.

It's fine to use these numbers to see how an airline has changed, but using this data to compare legacies to LCCs is just stupid. At least use ASMs per FTE, not FTEs per aircraft. You'd still me comparing apples to oranges, but it'd be a more reasonable comparison.

Also, passenger enplanements per FTE scews the data in favor of the LCC for the same reason. If they wanted better data they could've used RSMs per FTE.

 

[Gorilla]

Whatever. How did you get your time before the airlines?

My Dad paid my tuition to a famous aviation school. When I graduated, I had a Commercial ticket! With an instrument rating!! Then Dad, who was a chief pilot in the '60's, called some buddies who got me hired into the right seat of an MD-80 with 280 hours.

It's fun. I had a few captains tell me "Solo would be easier" while on final approach in driving rain to a mountain airport. That made me sad. I thought I was running those radios perfectly. I didn't mean to dump the moving map by selecting a divert airport as the destination, by accident.

I've gotten more skillz, though. I've got a really cool backpack, and at least 12 stickers on my kit bag. An awesome leather jacket, too. Chicks really check me out when I wear my uniform on my off time. That's because I don't wear dorky polished black shoes; I've got some great black running shoes! They go good with my long hair.

Sometimes the captain will let me touch the yoke in cruise. One even let me turn the autopilot off and hand fly! Just for a minute, though.

 

[AA717driver]

Gorrilla--What kind of backpack do you have? I've got one of those that you can hook your cellphone on the strap. Looks really cool and tactical.

What's up with the black running shoes? I thought you had Doc Maartens--with the yellow stitching... TC

 

[The_Russian]

You forgot to tell him that your Dad paid for your training at his airline.

 

[instructordude]

My Dad paid my tuition to a famous aviation school. When I graduated, I had a Commercial ticket! With an instrument rating!! Then Dad, who was a chief pilot in the '60's, called some buddies who got me hired into the right seat of an MD-80 with 280 hours.

It's fun. I had a few captains tell me "Solo would be easier" while on final approach in driving rain to a mountain airport. That made me sad. I thought I was running those radios perfectly. I didn't mean to dump the moving map by selecting a divert airport as the destination, by accident.

I've gotten more skillz, though. I've got a really cool backpack, and at least 12 stickers on my kit bag. An awesome leather jacket, too. Chicks really check me out when I wear my uniform on my off time. That's because I don't wear dorky polished black shoes; I've got some great black running shoes! They go good with my long hair.

Sometimes the captain will let me touch the yoke in cruise. One even let me turn the autopilot off and hand fly! Just for a minute, though.

That might not be the true story for you but I bet it is close to it.

 

[The_Russian]

Is this guy serious?

 

[instructordude]

Is this guy serious?

I don't know, I just asked him how he built his time and he responded. It was believable up until the backpack part. I think he is probably a bit sensitive. Oh well.

 

[Gorilla]

I don't understand. I thought a special backpack was normal if you wanted to be considered a cool pilot.

I guess I'll leave the backpack at home and wear my iPod on my belt. But my belt is already crowded with my Blackberry, phone, and sunglasses.

 

[instructordude]

I don't understand. I thought a special backpack was normal if you wanted to be considered a cool pilot.

None required. I do have a Patagonia backpack I wear. Looks pretty cool and I can fit a lot stuff in there, ie my company manuals and other stuff. If your interested in the Patagonia bag, PM me.

I

guess I'll leave the backpack at home and wear my iPod on my belt. But my belt is already crowded with my Blackberry, phone, and sunglasses.

You don't really have a Blackberry do you? Those things are complicated with buttons and switches all over it. Difficult to even turn it on.

 

[AA717driver]

I tried to use a back pack instead of a flight bag but the stickers kept falling off.

G-rilla--I guess the punk-a$$es don't believe your resume. TC

 

[Gorilla]

I tried to use a back pack instead of a flight bag but the stickers kept falling off.

Easy fix! There's a company that will take a sticker and EMBROIDER the pattern into a cool patch! I've got some Boeing patches, some excellent anti-management patches, a "Sex Wax" patch, and a Harley patch, even though I don't have a Harley. I'll try to find the company for you. My backpack probably has a dozen.

G-rilla--I guess the punk-a$$es don't believe your resume. TC

I'm not sure why... what's wrong with it? I had 280 hours, and that's PLENTY of experience. Over 23 cross countries, 2 of them at night! I deserved to be hired!

 

[vetrider]

It looks to me like Gorilla is winning this one handily. Instructor Dude may as well throw in the towel.

 

[JAM-BRO]

Easy fix! There's a company that will take a sticker and EMBROIDER the pattern into a cool patch! I've got some Boeing patches, some excellent anti-management patches, a "Sex Wax" patch, and a Harley patch, even though I don't have a Harley. I'll try to find the company for you. My backpack probably has a dozen.



I'm not sure why... what's wrong with it? I had 280 hours, and that's PLENTY of experience. Over 23 cross countries, 2 of them at night! I deserved to be hired!

Gorilla

U lick monkey wiener...

 

[instructordude]

I'm not sure why... what's wrong with it? I had 280 hours, and that's PLENTY of experience. Over 23 cross countries, 2 of them at night! I deserved to be hired!

You've got pay you dues in this industry to get hired dude. And no, I don't believe your profile.