Skywest: Confessions Of A Kool-Aid Drinker

[Willy21]

Like others before have said ALPA is only as good as the people that get involved. If you guys do vote it in you will not be handed anything. If I were in your shoes I would see things like this. I have been treated well at SkyWest and probably have the best QOL and pay in the regionals at this time. My company has just bought another company that is in going down hill fast. With the amount of people leaving that company I would be concerned that Jerry is going to let the people that want to go out and when it gets to the numbers he can control build it back up the way he wants it. That would make me very concerned. It might happen and it might not, but I wouldn't want to have the chair pulled out from under me. I think you guys need to look out for yourself and get a legal contract. That doesn't keep you from working side by side with management, Southwest does it well. You guys need some insurance for when Jerry checks out and Ron is fully in charge. Either way I wish all of the pilots at SkyWest and ASA the best. It would be amazing to see the two groups work together to make SkyWest Inc a good company to work for.

 

[Grassstrippilot]

For what it is worth, ALPA's basic membership includes a small AD&D insurance ($10K) I think and it seems there was one more small amount freebee thrown in there. Because of better rates else where and the fact I have some hobbies that are considered higher risk, I've changed and gotten my Life insurance elsewhere.

I consider my ALPA membership an insurance policy. Just like car, house, life, etc, you may not use it, but you'd hate not to have it. I agree with the other post on here....your ALPA MEC is what you make of it and hangs largely on who your officers are. They establish the quality of the working relationship with management, or, as more accurately stated earlier, management really determines the quality of the relationship.

ALPA has its problems, but I rest easier knowing I have the resources to help me out in the event I find myself in a jam.

I think the most important thing now is to keep an open mind, ignore the extremists on both sides and don't let their emotions sway your vote, research it, educate yourself, keep the big picture in mind, and then make your decision.

Good luck. Oh, and please pardon any typos. I've got one arm in a sling from an OJI, which ALPA med has been in the loop on and is giving some good help.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Auspac:

Consider that without ALPA, the SkyWest pilots are not members in an organization which works to improve this profession. When ALPA sits down with management, you are not represented at that table. (and the airlines' who's names are painted on your jet are represented by ALPA)

In order to raise this profession, we must work together. You can spend your career doing the left over flying for whatever pay and benefits management decides is appropriate, or you can have a voice in your profession.

Your vote comes at a very important time in ALPA's history. A point that is not lost on Mr. Atkin. If the representation of SkyWest fails, I think it will be a bellweather for representation at ASA and Comair. If SkyWest does not join the team, management will continue and accelerate the transfer of flying not only to SkyWest, but also to Republic, Feedom / Mesa, Go Jets and other alter ego players - reducing stability.

SkyWest announced that they pulled out of the COEX bid because they feared excessive risk. Airlines are very capital intensive and our careers are very seniority dependent. We and management both can benefit from stability.

If the SkyWest vote fails, I expect the setback may signal a slow retreat from ALPA's attempt to represent regional airline pilots. ALPA with warts and all is better than the Teamsters (GoJets for example). When ALPA is gone (or rendered ineffective) say goodbye to the term "industry leading."

We have endured a dark period in ALPA's history. In the last 8 years, ALPA has failed to properly represent regional airline pilots, but, ALPA has to turn things around, or has to abandon the "experiment" of representing regional airline pilots. Your vote may not be the deciding factor, but it would certainly tip the balance in favor of ALPA becoming "the pilots union" that sets the standard for others to build on. Look at ALPA's long term history - ALPA is the only organization positioned to restore and promote our profession.

While there are still a few warm days left in the year, I strongly suggest that anyone with the question "Why ALPA?" pick up a copy of "Flying the Line, Volume I" and you will probably be interested in the sequel, Volume II. It has not been, nor will it be, and easy climb, but the reason why we are here is because our predecessors saw things that needed fixing and took a stand. No, we are not airmail pilots with an 80% mortality rate any more, but we have suffered a declining standard of pay which requires many of us to hold down two jobs to be a "pilot." There is a price we pay for being on the road so much of our lives, there is room for improvement.

~~~^~~~

 

[USCtrojan]

Auspac:

Consider that without ALPA, the SkyWest pilots are not members in an organization which works to improve this profession. When ALPA sits down with management, you are not represented at that table. (and the airlines' who's names are painted on your jet are represented by ALPA)

In order to raise this profession, we must work together. You can spend your career doing the left over flying for whatever pay and benefits management decides is appropriate, or you can have a voice in your profession.

Your vote comes at a very important time in ALPA's history. A point that is not lost on Mr. Atkin. If the representation of SkyWest fails, I think it will be a bellweather for representation at ASA and Comair. If SkyWest does not join the team, management will continue and accelerate the transfer of flying not only to SkyWest, but also to Republic, Feedom / Mesa, Go Jets and other alter ego players - reducing stability.

SkyWest announced that they pulled out of the COEX bid because they feared excessive risk. Airlines are very capital intensive and our careers are very seniority dependent. We and management both can benefit from stability.

If the SkyWest vote fails, I expect the setback may signal a slow retreat from ALPA's attempt to represent regional airline pilots. ALPA with warts and all is better than the Teamsters (GoJets for example). When ALPA is gone (or rendered ineffective) say goodbye to the term "industry leading."

We have endured a dark period in ALPA's history. In the last 8 years, ALPA has failed to properly represent regional airline pilots, but, ALPA has to turn things around, or has to abandon the "experiment" of representing regional airline pilots. Your vote may not be the deciding factor, but it would certainly tip the balance in favor of ALPA becoming "the pilots union" that sets the standard for others to build on. Look at ALPA's long term history - ALPA is the only organization positioned to restore and promote our profession.

While there are still a few warm days left in the year, I strongly suggest that anyone with the question "Why ALPA?" pick up a copy of "Flying the Line, Volume I" and you will probably be interested in the sequel, Volume II. It has not been, nor will it be, and easy climb, but the reason why we are here is because our predecessors saw things that needed fixing and took a stand. No, we are not airmail pilots with an 80% mortality rate any more, but we have suffered a declining standard of pay which requires many of us to hold down two jobs to be a "pilot." There is a price we pay for being on the road so much of our lives, there is room for improvement.

~~~^~~~

Great post Fins, glad to see you back.

Trojan

 

[Weasil]

First let me say, wow, this is the most intelligent discussion I have ever seen on FI.
I have a good friend also who lost his medical a couple of years ago. He is in 30s!! It is thanks to the help of ALPA medical that he got it back.

As far as the original poster holding onto his card until he makes his decision, remember this is not the ballot. This is just a request to authorise a vote to take place. The vote will only be held if a large number of pilots return those cards, so you may as well send it in. Then you still have time to decide how you are going to vote, after all wouldn't it be better to hold the vote, at least then we know what the pilot group wants.

 

[SkyNation]

Fins, I thought you bid us all adieu!?

I've heard that unless 75% of pilots return the cards, it's over, done, finito. I've heard further that if 75% or more return them, then we'll have it a vote. I'll return my card, because I think people should have the chance to vote. If the 75% thing is true, however, I think it will fall short.

 

[CFIT]

Obviously there are many elements of the monumental decision that is looming before us. My take is that there are possiblities that without percieved protection from ALPA that management could reduce compensation or benefits. However, this company has made it a very comfortable and livable employer, much improved since I started here over 16 years ago. It's not perfect (no place is), but it is pretty good, kind of a 2 steps forward-1 step back type of progress. The other very equally strong aurgument is that there is also no gaurantee that a new negotiated contract will be better. There is no gaurantee that what we have today will be in any new contract, pay or benefits. And if any body thinks the company will be in any hurry to ratify a new contract, think again. Under the present contract (or lack there of) the company is doing well and they can drag their feet without the threat of financial difficulty for years, literally, and I would expect them to do just that. Until there is any kind of financial motivation, the company is in a better position to drag out negotiations.

But what scares me enough to start filling out apps and my log book is what this place will be like during the interim. Our present policy manual is very, very open to interpretation. As such it will be only managements interpretation that will count. In my time here I have seen one person terminated that I don't think, but don't know for sure, deserved it. I have seen in every other case that I knew of, it was deserved. On the other hand I have seen pilots that royally screwed the pooch, helped and put back on line and as tragic as it is I can say that those days will be over. For those guys that have been in the sights of management for what ever reason, they better hope and pray they don't have a problem. I wish it would not be the case but during the time it takes to get a contract, SkyWest is going to be a living hell. I have not had any desire to work any where else for easily the last 7 years, I am very happy here but fear the environment that will become if a union is voted in.

Again, SkyWest isn't perfect, but it could become a stinking mess for easily 5 years, before it gets better and there is no proof that could happen either. It is what this place will be like during the interim that I don't support the drive.

 

[Beanie]

I sincerely mean it when I say- Thank you auspac. It is good to see someone set such a great example of true professionalism. We might not agree on things, but you have shown everyone on here how to put forth a thought or opinion with class, respect and dignity. Well done, and all I can hope is that everyone learns a valuable lesson about opening up meaningful dialouge that can actually push forward ideas on issues that affect us, rather than polarizing each other.

Cheers.

 

[thebest]

Loss of License Insurance is extra. I do not participate since the company also provides us with it and our contribution comes out of each check. It is $1.25 per check. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember that ALPA's LoL insurance kicks in quicker and lasts longer. Anyone?

Be very careful on just relying on the company offered LOL. That plan pays nothing if you can be gainfully employed in ANY occupation. The ALPA LOL pays you if you cannot be a pilot.[/quot


A few years ago alps's LOL insurance was the federation of airline pilots (think that was it) and they went BANKRUPT! Guess what, those that had the insurance only got a small part of what they were paying for all those years... alpa's reply___________? THEBEST

 

[Gobi Gred]

CFIT, Does it worry you as well what might happen at SkyWest if there is a shakeup in management down the road that results in some Frank Lorenzo type getting control of SkyWest? I quess that worries me more than the scenario you posted. Without a contract someone like that could make our lives hell in a heartbeat. Good original post and thread.

 

[mckpickle]

Thanks for the replies. All except mckpickle have added constructrive posts. Asapilot, A-V-8 and Atrdriver , thanks for your points of view. It is refreshing when we can share ideas in a rational way. Too often pro ALPA people are very quick with the insults and threats and I believe they do much more harm to their cause than good, but these boards attract the extremists and I believe most pilots whether ALPA or not have valid ideas.
Is what SeeYa posts true? I was thinking about loss of medical and loss of licence, does that require additional funds ontop of the 2% dues? How much?

Unconstructive....ya right. I simply said I couldn't deal with your post because of the kool-aide. Face it, you milking off the teet of what other UNIONIZE groups have gained for you. You didn't do shiit yourselves. If it were not for us you'd be paid a heck of a lot less. Not to mention that you contribute nothing to the industry as a whole. Your assertions are moot since you don't know how unions work at other carriers and the things we do for our pilots and the industry.

I'm not going to sit here and blow sunshine up your apu. Get with the freakin program. I'm also not going to suger coat it. Get with the program. If your not part of the solution then your part of the problem.
And BTW, you were way off base on the asertion that only coex and Comair were PFT.

 

[CFIT]

Gobi, Don't know what could happen down the road, with or without APLA a management shakeup could have dire results. The only thing that I can be very certain of is a terrible environment until a contract is set, and that will take years.

McPimple, blo-me

 

[auspac]

Mckpickle, I'm guessing that you were never on your college debate team. Well neither was I, but the use of insults and threats to try to express a point of view seems to only work to lower the readers' impression of you. I have reread my original post and can't seem to locate where I said that only Comair and Continental Express were PFT. I used two examples but did not say they were exclusive. Now, you could have put forth the intelligent argument that it was because of unions that the two pilot groups were able to move from the kind of management that required PFT to the kind of contract that the pilot groups now enjoy. Likewise, someone who is anti-ALPA could use the argument that because Skwest has the type of management who never imposed PFT when, as you imply, many other airlines were, then we don't need representation now. See how that works, intelligent arguments can be made and there's really no need to resort to the insults and vulgarities.

For everyone else, I thank you for your responses and I encourage the intelligent, thoughtful debate to continue (Mckpickle, that doesn't seem to include you.)

 

[atrdriver]

Gobi, Don't know what could happen down the road, with or without APLA a management shakeup could have dire results. The only thing that I can be very certain of is a terrible environment until a contract is set, and that will take years.

McPimple, blo-me

Then that sctually says quite a lot about your management, if you are convinced that the forming of a union would turn them against the pilot group. If Skywest management is as great as everyone says I would expect them to look at it as a challenge, and quickly try to make the new relationship as profitable and harmonious as possible.

 

[ASACAPT]

With respect to the fear of Skywest management creatively reintrpeteing of your Standard Practices while negotiating your first contract, STAUS QUO will protect you. The RLA is very clear that any anti union activities from the company during this time is strictly prohibited. You are right that they could, and very well will drag out the negotiations. But at least you will have a contract in the end.

 

[rickair7777]

With respect to the fear of Skywest management creatively reintrpeteing of your Standard Practices while negotiating your first contract, STAUS QUO will protect you. The RLA is very clear that any anti union activities from the company during this time is strictly prohibited. You are right that they could, and very well will drag out the negotiations. But at least you will have a contract in the end.

I don't NEED a contract...I had that at my last airline and it was a worthless POS. What little it offered was simply ignored by management at their convenience (Grieve It!). The local alpa MEC were @ss clowns at best, crooks at worst.

SKW treats me just fine in regards to, pay, QOL and, most importantly, dignity. If that changes, then it might be time for a union. I do get somewhat incensed when people here tell me how poorly I am treated at SKW...I know damn-well what poor treatment REALLY is because I have lived it for years at an alpa operation.

I would also be very open to a NATIONAL union movement...alpa in it's current incarnation simply collects dues for the national unit, but leaves the locals to fend for themselves...I know, I know, it's not alps's fault it's MY fault because I elected my local reps. OK, fine but I can keep my local morons without paying Duane's salary too (I need it more than he does).

If alpa (or hopefully a replacement national union) were to take a PUBLIC stand with SPECIFIC pay, workrule, QOL, and benefit standards for all different sizes of airliners then THAT would be worth persuing... Everybody meets at least the same minimum standard...if you work somewhere that does not meet the standard, you are blacklisted. Period. Obviously there would be a grace period for the various pilot groups to get their contracts up to par and/or find new jobs. This would put the responsibility to compete effectively in the hands of operations managers, and remove pilot compensation as a competetive weapon.

 

[SkyNation]

If Skywest management is as great as everyone says I would expect them to look at it as a challenge, and quickly try to make the new relationship as profitable and harmonious as possible.

atrdriver,

your posts are usually well thought out and well presented. you can't really think that Jerry, Brad and Ron would, or should, say 'hey, this will be a fun and interesting challenge-let's do it!'

 

[Publishers]

For the most part, this has been one of the most intelligent threads in some time.
The basic history lesson is that the strength of unions as organizations was the result of that which was gained under regulation. Literally the whole system in the commercial airline world was a result of that period --very little since.
In a deregulated environment, there will always be new upstarts and violent swings in the economy and airline industry. Those that think they are the beneficiary of such may stop to think about an industry where if you change companies, you go back to ground zero.
While there may be arguments for organized labor, there are hundreds of thousands of job holders who seem to be doing fine without the necessity of someone to speak for them. Another aspect is whether industry wide labor groups are a good thing compared to having an in house union that tends to deal more with issues surrounding a particular company.
If anything, in this industry, there is this concpet that managment really controls and manipulates labor. From my perspective, there are few businesses where one has less control of ones business than in this one. The burden of regulations, accounting, insurance issues, on and on make this a business where many things happen to you not of your choice. If recent developments have shown you anything, it is that market forces can make your contract worthless, will still control your future, and can never be dictated by some document. When Comair may be uncompetitive for its own parent, it says something about the state of affairs.

 

[auspac]

Great post Publishers. There have been many great pro-ALPA points brought up in this discussion but in today's environment whether you have a contract or not when things really get bad can't management pretty much impose their will? In some cases the speed at which management can move without having to deal with a union can lead to far greater oppurtunities for their employees. Of course that can well go the other way too.

 

[sweptback]

In some cases the speed at which management can move without having to deal with a union can lead to far greater oppurtunities for their employees. Of course that can well go the other way too.

Please give me an example about how having a union would impede a company from pursuing new business opportunities.