90s diverted to Skywest

[Eric]

Yeah, it is legally binding until the company violates it and tells you with a smirk on their face to grieve it knowing what a pain that is and then it's grieved and essentially re-interpreted and you are flying 3 naps in a row and then some because what management initially inteded wasn't what was in the contract and now it is due to the re-interpretive grievance process.

How about that for a run-on!

 

[atrdriver]

Yeah, it is legally binding until the company violates it and tells you with a smirk on their face to grieve it knowing what a pain that is and then it's grieved and essentially re-interpreted and you are flying 3 naps in a row and then some because what management initially inteded wasn't what was in the contract and now it is due to the re-interpretive grievance process.

How about that for a run-on!

Yeah, that is a grievance that we lost. There have been a lot of grievances that we ahve won as well. I'm not saying that our current contract is perfect, it is obviously not, that is why we are trying to negotiate a better one. But at least we DO have a grievance process, that is protected by law. Skywest may currently have a process to address disputes with their agreement, but it is subject to managements whim.

 

[CFIT]

Yeah, that is a grievance that we lost. There have been a lot of grievances that we ahve won as well. I'm not saying that our current contract is perfect, it is obviously not, that is why we are trying to negotiate a better one. But at least we DO have a grievance process, that is protected by law. Skywest may currently have a process to address disputes with their agreement, but it is subject to managements whim.

So you have some grevs you've lost and some you've won, that's no different that the PIC situation at SkyWest. From what I've read ASA ALPA can't get a contract set due to management, can't get released due to the mediator, and contract policies get stomped when the company needs to. So how again is ALPA going to make things so much better for SkyWest pilots?

 

[Dubya]

It is unbelievable that people still think that just having a union and a "contract" will save their jobs. I wonder if all the TWA, Eastern, PanAm, Braniff, etc.etc. and so on...thought the same thing.

SkyWest does have a safety committee...it's called ASAP I believe.

SkyWest does have an inhouse union...it's called SAPA I believe.

W

 

[Gobi Gred]

SAPA is NOT A UNION. A pilot group representative maybe, but not a union.

 

[Peter Griffin]

As a non-union carrier SkyWest pilots are "at will" employees, have no
contract, have no grievance process, have no safety committee, do not have
legal help or advice, and the list goes on.

Just want to clarify some of this. We have a "contract," just not the same as a union one. And the compnay does stick to its word which is laid out in our "contract." As a matter of fact, it reads just like any union contract. ASA types seem to think this changes about ever other day, but really it remains pretty much the same, sometimes getting better, sometime worse, but usually better than industry average. But, I will admit, this is a little wishy-washy for some people, because its not LEGALLY binding, even though 99.9 percent of the time its applied. Which brings me to my second point - there IS a grievance process here. If you feel you are wronged, you can talk to your CP. Most issues can simply be worked out by giving so and so a call (i.e. just call payroll if they forgot something). If you really think that you got screwed, you can go to your CP or your SAPA rep. If you REALLY screwed up, you still generally wont get fired unless you committed the 2 cardinal sins - lied or cheated. All of this works 99.9 percent of the time as well. We also have a safety committee. It is called ASAP, and run through the company. It is very similar to the NASA program, but more specific to SKYW. It is an excellent program designed to get us to talk about problems we are seeing on the line while giving us some immunity from the FAA. UNLIMITED legal advice is one of our optional benefits and costs a miniscule amount per month (I believe it is under 10 dollars, but dont quote me).

Im curious to see what the rest of the "on and on list" is and if we have it in some form or another. I have generally not gotten involved in the ASA vs. SKYW discussions, but this was blatently wrong in my opinion. There is so mis-information from both sides on this whole thing that nobody seems to stop and get the facts first.

 

[Dubya]

SAPA is NOT A UNION. A pilot group representative maybe, but not a union.

Ok. So now tell me what it is that a "union" does? I could have sworn it was to represent pilots?


W

 

[Stifler's Mom]

SAPA is NOT A UNION. A pilot group representative maybe, but not a union.

I spoke with a senior Captain from SKW about SAPA, and he described them as "a group of people who continually have the wool pulled over their eyes by management."

 

[atrdriver]

Just want to clarify some of this. We have a "contract," just not the same as a union one. And the compnay does stick to its word which is laid out in our "contract." As a matter of fact, it reads just like any union contract. ASA types seem to think this changes about ever other day, but really it remains pretty much the same, sometimes getting better, sometime worse, but usually better than industry average. But, I will admit, this is a little wishy-washy for some people, because its not LEGALLY binding, even though 99.9 percent of the time its applied. Which brings me to my second point - there IS a grievance process here. If you feel you are wronged, you can talk to your CP. Most issues can simply be worked out by giving so and so a call (i.e. just call payroll if they forgot something). If you really think that you got screwed, you can go to your CP or your SAPA rep. If you REALLY screwed up, you still generally wont get fired unless you committed the 2 cardinal sins - lied or cheated.

You apparantly need to re read my post. I didn't say that Skywest didn't have a working agreement. Nor did I say that management violates it with any consistancy. What I said is that the protections that you have are all given to you by management. Your "grievance" process is granted to you by the company. I'm not saying that they would ever take it away, but they could, and if they decided to there is nothing that could be done about it. Same thing with your working agreement. I don't think that they would ever just throw it out, but they could, and there is nothing that could be done about it. That is one advantage of a Union. Notice that I didn't say ALPA, I sais a Union. ALPA does not have an advantage as far as representation goes, but they do have an advantage as far as expertise goes.

Skywest obviously has a lot of good things in regards to their pilots. I sincerely hope that all those good things continue to be offered. But, if one day JA walks in and says "These pilot just make way too much money", there is nothing that you can do to stop him from taking action. That may or may not ever happen, but if it ever does it will be too late for a union.

 

[Peter Griffin]

You apparantly need to re read my post. I didn't say that Skywest didn't have a working agreement. Nor did I say that management violates it with any consistancy. What I said is that the protections that you have are all given to you by management. Your "grievance" process is granted to you by the company. I'm not saying that they would ever take it away, but they could, and if they decided to there is nothing that could be done about it. Same thing with your working agreement. I don't think that they would ever just throw it out, but they could, and there is nothing that could be done about it. That is one advantage of a Union. Notice that I didn't say ALPA, I sais a Union. ALPA does not have an advantage as far as representation goes, but they do have an advantage as far as expertise goes.

Skywest obviously has a lot of good things in regards to their pilots. I sincerely hope that all those good things continue to be offered. But, if one day JA walks in and says "These pilot just make way too much money", there is nothing that you can do to stop him from taking action. That may or may not ever happen, but if it ever does it will be too late for a union.

Re-read it? I was responding to a letter you were quoting in your original post. Regardless, I wasnt trying to launch an attack on you personally. I was just trying to clarify the items presented in the MEC letter.

I think the main difference between ASA and SKYW is their attitudes. The corporate culture at ASA seems to be predominately pessimistic, and SKYW is predominately optomistic. I dont even blame ASA employees for being that way. I worked for another airline that was very negative, and it was no fun. While you are willing to bet on the fact we NEED a union just in case the .1% chance SKYW management decides to just throw everything away, SKYW employees (not all, but, IMHO, a majority), would rather put just a little faith in the 30 years of trust this team has built with their pilots. You're right. They could just take everything away - but why? Just to prove they have power? Cut costs on the backs of their employees? If they wanted to do that, it would have already happened, especially in todays environment. I dont think SGU wants to become the next Mesa/Freedom/Geauxjet - because it doesnt make good sense and fit the values of this company. They have proven they can still be profitable while treating their employees well. Ill get off my soapbox now :erm:

 

[Gobi Gred]

Dubya, A union is funded by the labor group it represents not by management. That's just one of the many differences.

 

[rtmcfi]

Hey Peter Griffen,
Does the company ask or require that you sit in the Cockpit jumpseat when you are NRPS in order to get one more person aboard? If a pilot from a different carrier, or hell for that matter SkyWest shows up to catch a ride to work, and the plane is full, and you are a NRPS passenger on a deadhead, will that pilot be in the actual, or waving at the plane as it leaves the gate? If they require you to sit in the actual seat if asked, how is it worded in your manual? To say your manual is not interpreted at managements whim is dishonest.

 

[Peter Griffin]

From the SKYW policy manual:

3. Deadheading To A Work Assignment​

A. When reporting for duty, a crewmember will:
1) Be provided positive space on-line.
2) At the discretion of the Company, be provided positive or space available
interline tickets.
3) Be asked to occupy a jumpseat if his/her boarding would result in denied
boarding of a revenue passenger (Pilot only).
4) Cancel a seat that has been reserved by crew support for the purpose of
deadheading if he/she does not plan to use the seat.

"Asked" is just like you said. We recieved a memo a while ago saying this was more along the lines of "required." I dont quite understand the second part of the question. If a pilot from a different carrier shows up to jumpseat to get to work, he can sit in the jumpseat his/herself (CASS, and, due to sheer cockpit area, not recommended on the Bro). Are you asking will a deadheading SKYW pilot be required to move for a SA passenger? No. Only for revenue passengers. Would the SKYW pilot voluantairly move so that a SA can have a seat in the back? I guess thats up to the pilot.

I never said that they stick to the manual 100%. This is one of those examples. The situtation of moving to the cockpit to accomodate another space positive passenger, obviously, a sticky situtation at best. I think thats why they came out and said that we sould move to the cockpit to get another paying passenger on. Is that right? I dunno. Its not an issue on the bro due to weight, and I would almost rather sit in the front of a CRJ than in the back next with 49 others. But I get the point and see both sides of the argument. I, personally, dont think its a big deal, but some others do, which is fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I try not to forget that the passengers are reason why I get a paycheck.​

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I've been bumped from a UAL jumpseat. They have the same policy.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree but you need to realize it's not a unique policy.

 

[Peter Griffin]

I just figured out what you were trying to say. Since a DH pilot is supposed to have a NRPS space in the back, would we "take" a jumpseaters only ride to accomodate another paying passenger? Frankly, it shouldnt matter whether a jumpseater is there or not - the paying passengers in the back win. What if that passenger is trying to get home to see a sick family member? I would NOT like to look a customer in the eye and say "Well, although I could sit in the cockpit, my buddy is trying to get to work, so you are just going to have to stay here. Sorry bout that. That will teach you to buy a ticket." And like Dave said, its definately not unique. I commute, I'd be pissed if it happened to be, but the jumpseat is a privildge, not a right. Plus, hopefully that deadheader isnt trying to specifically screw you, but trying to HELP the passenger. Unfortunately, the jumpseater gets screwed in the process.

 

[rickair7777]

I have and will give up a NRSP seat and sit up front to accomodate a NRSA, a jumpseater, or even a paying pax.

HOWEVER, I have also declined to do that on a 3 hour deadhead on the front-end of a 14 hour duty day. The jumpseat is tiring and uncomfortable on long legs, basically if I need the rest I won't do it.

 

[atrdriver]

They have proven they can still be profitable while treating their employees well. Ill get off my soapbox now :erm:

ASA proved that for a while as well. Then they brought in a management "team" that didn't have the same philosophy. That is the main reason we are where we are now. I hope for your sake that the same never happens to you,

 

[Erlanger]

As a non-union carrier SkyWest pilots are "at will" employees, have no contract, have no grievance process, have no safety committee, do not have legal help or advice, and the list goes on.

The Skywest pilots, while may be "at will" employees, do have a contract, do have a grievance process, do have a safety commitee and do have legal help and advice. Say what you will about the company taking those things away when it wants because there is no union. Hasn't been a problem in 35 years. Skywest simply doesn't just fire people because we're "at will" employees. Inspite of what you all my hear about someone getting fired at Skywest, the really did deserve to be.

 

[XPOO]

Erlanger...shush, dude! You weren't supposed to tell anyone we get all that stuff for free. Now those ALPA guys have got to find a new platform to try and stand on.

 

[Crash Pad]

ASA proved that for a while as well. Then they brought in a management "team" that didn't have the same philosophy. That is the main reason we are where we are now. I hope for your sake that the same never happens to you,

Just curious... George and John are the management team that cared about the pilots?