Nasty Chief Pilots

[HawkerF/O]

Yeah, its funny how pilots don't like to use brakes, like they're the ones paying for them.

For some, it's not economics; it's heat. I have been taught that hot steel brakes are no friend to anyone trying to use them. Get them hot enough, and they will not work at all. This applies to steel brakes, not Carbon Fiber. With CF brakes, use at touch down gets them warm, thus making them much more effective.

When I was learning, I was taught to check the brakes upon landing to make sure they were available, but to let the T/Rs do the work. As the T/Rs are coming out, check the brakes to make sure they are available, then let the T/Rs do their job. 10 or so knots short of stow speed, bring in the Brakes. Why heat the brakes up at touch down just to do it? Jump all over the brakes at touch down, then that last 2000 feets comes up and you really need them, they will not be there for you like you need them to be. If they are, they certainly will not be as effective. With 8000ft in front of you and you have it stopped by the 2000ft point by jumping on the brakes and T/Rs for no other reason then just to do it? Silly. Most T/R's are highly effective, especially the Target Type, putting out additional drag just by their deployment.

All of this goes out the window on shorter runways. Common sense should come into play. I've seen people fly Ref+ 10 or whatever going into short fields. Makes no sense; like the aircraft will fall out of the sky at REF.

"We only have 4000ft. Why are you flying REF +10?"
"For Safety"
"Oh, flying at REF is not safe? Please tell me where to find performance #s for REF +10 in the AFM"
"Ummmmmmm"

Some will argue this. We all have our own way of doing things, but anyone here will have a tough time explaining the thermodynamic benefits of heating up steel brakes so they are more effective.

 

[747flyboy]

For some, it's not economics; it's heat. I have been taught that hot steel brakes are no friend to anyone trying to use them. Get them hot enough, and they will not work at all. This applies to steel brakes, not Carbon Fiber. With CF brakes, use at touch down gets them warm, thus making them much more effective.

When I was learning, I was taught to check the brakes upon landing to make sure they were available, but to let the T/Rs do the work. As the T/Rs are coming out, check the brakes to make sure they are available, then let the T/Rs do their job. 10 or so knots short of stow speed, bring in the Brakes. Why heat the brakes up at touch down just to do it? Jump all over the brakes at touch down, then that last 2000 feets comes up and you really need them, they will not be there for you like you need them to be. If they are, they certainly will not be as effective. With 8000ft in front of you and you have it stopped by the 2000ft point by jumping on the brakes and T/Rs for no other reason then just to do it? Silly. Most T/R's are highly effective, especially the Target Type, putting out additional drag just by their deployment.

All of this goes out the window on shorter runways. Common sense should come into play. I've seen people fly Ref+ 10 or whatever going into short fields. Makes no sense; like the aircraft will fall out of the sky at REF.

"We only have 4000ft. Why are you flying REF +10?"
"For Safety"
"Oh, flying at REF is not safe? Please tell me where to find performance #s for REF +10 in the AFM"
"Ummmmmmm"

Some will argue this. We all have our own way of doing things, but anyone here will have a tough time explaining the thermodynamic benefits of heating up steel brakes so they are more effective.

Now I fly into alot of 5,000 foot (and smaller) strips so hitting the brakes should start right after the TR's are fully deployed, doesn't matter what plane it is. But yes, when we fly into 10,000 foot strips, as I said in my other post, "I don't really care about the whole brake issue."

When I flew the 747 the brakes came on upon touchdown every time, and yes they got very hot, sometimes needed 1 1/2 hours to cool before moving again, but thats the way they were meant to be used. There's nothing wrong with hitting the brakes on any type braking system on any type of plane, upon touchdown, no type of brake will get overheated to a point where it won't work UNLESS a very stupid pilot "stands" on them hard at high speed immediately after touchdown. I think we all know NOT to do that.

I come on with the brakes after full TR deployment lightly and continue to come in with them gradually...........for any runway under 6,000 feet. Than I'll adjust my braking for longer or shorter runways. The shorter the runway, the smaller the time period until you slow enough to leave the runway, so if done properly (ie: not going crazy standing on them at high speed) its all relative.

Oh, and the whole "ref" thing...I agree with you. Ref + 10 is a joke, especially over the numbers on a short field. I plan my touchdowns at ref -5 always, and its the times I touchdown at ref -5 to 10 when the landing is a roll-on perfectly smooth greaser. After in ground effect you're fine. Short fields I'm at ref over the numbers pulling the throttles to idle.

 

[Flybet3]

I have to agree, there's no need to stump on the breaks like a dumba$$ on a long runway, but there's also no reason to get all anal about USING the breaks to "save" money or give your FO the "hey, take it easy on MY breaks".

How arrogant are you when you have to refer everything to everyone as "MY AIRPLANE, MY BRAKES, MY ENGINE COVERS???!?!?!?!? WTF

 

[Flybet3]

I usually fly Vref everytime, now if the wind is gusting or there was reported windshear I am sure as hell going to keep it at Ref+10, I dont care if it's a 10,000 foot runway or 4000 foot. My philosophy is I rather be fast than slow. Especially on the aircraft I am flying now.

 

[747flyboy]

I have to agree, there's no need to stump on the breaks like a dumba$$ on a long runway, but there's also no reason to get all anal about USING the breaks to "save" money or give your FO the "hey, take it easy on MY breaks".

How arrogant are you when you have to refer everything to everyone as "MY AIRPLANE, MY BRAKES, MY ENGINE COVERS???!?!?!?!? WTF

Yeah, its pretty funny when any pilot says, "my plane"...."my engines"...etc

Anytime I had a new FO with little experience I'd let them figure out what braking they method they like to do, as long as we're not going 50 knots with 2,000 feet left.

 

[747flyboy]

I usually fly Vref everytime, now if the wind is gusting or there was reported windshear I am sure as hell going to keep it at Ref+10, I dont care if it's a 10,000 foot runway or 4000 foot. My philosophy is I rather be fast than slow. Especially on the aircraft I am flying now.

Certainly, everything in aviation has something that ULTIMATELY sets the rules for each type of flight operation. Weather ultimately dictates your final approach speed.

If weather is good and there's no shear I hold ref + 10 to about 500 feet AGL, than I start slowing to be at ref over the numbers.

 

[Flybet3]

Yeah, its pretty funny when any pilot says, "my plane"...."my engines"...etc

Anytime I had a new FO with little experience I'd let them figure out what braking they method they like to do, as long as we're not going 50 knots with 2,000 feet left.

I agree, my point is if you want an FO to do something your way, you better have a dam good explanation and reason as to why you want it that way. I asked one guy once "Is there a reason you want it that way, why are you being so anal" and he responded "this is not a democracy, either you do it my way or you wont get to fly anymore"

I got sooooo pissed, I tought I was going to lose it. So I just said "That's fine by me, I dont mind sitting on the right seat reading check lists and working the radios, fu** it."

Talk about control freak huh....

 

[747flyboy]

I agree, my point is if you want an FO to do something your way, you better have a dam good explanation and reason as to why you want it that way. I asked one guy once "Is there a reason you want it that way, why are you being so anal" and he responded "this is not a democracy, either you do it my way or you wont get to fly anymore"

I got sooooo pissed, I tought I was going to lose it. So I just said "That's fine by me, I dont mind sitting on the right seat reading check lists and working the radios, fu** it."

Talk about control freak huh....

I learned early on into my first co-pilot turbine powered aircraft job that most captains are just azzclowns that didn't know how to fly very well. I wasn't liked very much at my first job because I would speak right up when I thought a captain was flying crappy, and not to just them, but to the owner. Luckily, the owner and me were friendly enough where I wasn't going anywhere.
Perfect example: One of the contract idiots that the company would use loved to call, "field in sight" when he really thought he knew where it was because the GPS track and distance pointed right towards a spot that maybe looked like the airport. I would always say, "whats the big rush man, lets just wait a little longer we're 12 miles out still, just take the vectors." He would tell me to call it, I would simply say, "nope, I don't see it and I know damn well you don't, so if you want to call it you tell them." And many many times he would have to ask ATC for further vectors to find it hahahaha...idiot.

Most captains are just jerk-off, power trip morons. They need to take a friggin chill pill and realize they aren't god because they fly planes.

How about the captains that get the rental car and say, "you're driving". Or, "be in the lobby at 7:30 to go to dinner because I'm leaving on the minute". Fugg you, you're only the captain when we're flying buddy, you ain't sh1t when we're on the ground.

The best thing is when they would give the fuel order that I wasn't happy with and I would add to it. That would piss them off. When they asked what the hell am I doing, I would just say, "plane don't and shouldn't fly unless we're both comfortable, period." Than when we would land in bad weather and roll in with 1500 pounds in a friggin Lear 25 they realized how important that extra 1,000 pounds was that I asked for.

I love my signature below.


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[ackattacker]

The best thing is when they would give the fuel order that I wasn't happy with and I would add to it. That would piss them off.

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That would piss me off too. Sorry, but you don't sound like you'd be very agreeable to fly with as either FO or Captain. Self-righteousness is not an endearing quality... maybe those captains were "azzclowns" but there's a right way and a wrong way to approach it. Nobody appreciates being constantly second guessed.

 

[Flybet3]

Yeah those types really suck...so far, the Capts I've flown with here at my new job have been great. Good pilots, but also are not affraid to ask "well we should do this, What do you think?". That's what I like, why b/c the day I become a captain here which wont be to long now, I will do the same with my FOs. Ask them if they are comfortable with my decisions, if they are ok accepting the trip. Last captain I flew with was great, we had a 9:00am departure, a show time of 8:00am, and he would say. You wanna show at 8:00 or 8:30, that's just great to me.
Of course not every captain can do that, especially if you have a very slow FO or the other way around.
The thing that pisses me off about some of the ****************************** bags I've flown with is that they act as if they where born a captain.
Like I told a guy before, you want me to be the ideal captain then you have to make me a captain, by teaching and example. Not by "just do it" or "do it this way b/c I said so"

The way I always taught was "hey, just an opinion. Try doing this, or try this technique." then explain why and the benefits of doing it that way. I always finish that with a "this is just my opinion, or if you have a better way please le me know"

YOU WILL ALWAYS KEEP LEARNING MR CP!!