Your thoughts about PBS?

[Cliff_S]

I would like to hear some thoughts about PBS at carriers that use it now. FedEx management is trying to push us into this but we're resisting because we believe we'll be screwed because management will maintain full control of the system. However, I have read a few tidbits here and there which suggest lots of folks really like it. At the carriers who do use PBS, who has real control over it, the pilots, the union, or management? And how do you like it? Thanks.

 

[75M]

We had it at TWA and it was awesome. The union and the company agree to staffing levels and hourly targets and the program builds each pilot a customized line based on your individual preferences (good for pilots). It also factors in scheduled training events, vacations and monthly conflicts to increase productivity and reduce the number of trips that are kicked into open time (good for management).

There are a lot of guys who know a heck of a lot more about it than I do, but as a user (of the the system that is), it was great. I heard that traditional bidding allows something like 10% of the pilots to get all the days off they need, while PBS allows something like 60% of the pilots to get all of the days off they need (good for pilots). As a result, the use of sick time miraculously goes WAY down (good for the company).

From my experience it was one of those win-win scenarios where everybody was happy.

Pros:

1) Customized Line
2) It's really easy to bid every month
3) Less reserve staffing needed
4) More hard lines awarded

Cons:

1) Reduces staffing needs, although the program can be tweaked for whatever staffing levels the pilots and the company agree to
2) Bidding conflicts are eliminated
3) Vacation conflicts are eliminated
4) You can't just pick a line and bid it, so you need to make sure your preferences are prioritized correctly

Bottom line, the union and the company will have to work together to make sure the program is working as desired. Once that is accomplished, you'll NEVER want to go back to the old way of bidding.

 

[General Lee]

Good if you are senior, bad if you are really junior. We had PBS at Delta Express in MCO.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dojetdriver]

Good if you are senior, bad if you are really junior.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Yep, kinda like line bidding.

 

[TooBad]

I would like to hear some thoughts about PBS at carriers that use it now. FedEx management is trying to push us into this but we're resisting because we believe we'll be screwed because management will maintain full control of the system. However, I have read a few tidbits here and there which suggest lots of folks really like it. At the carriers who do use PBS, who has real control over it, the pilots, the union, or management? And how do you like it? Thanks.

it's a huge QOL issue. It's really awesome, and I'm not sure what General is talking about but it is more fair to junior guys than line bidding (a TON less time involved)

two thumbs up!

 

[RJP]

I learned to count to 10 in Spanish when I was little thanks to Sesame Street.............wait, are we talking about the same thing?

 

[General Lee]

it's a huge QOL issue. It's really awesome, and I'm not sure what General is talking about but it is more fair to junior guys than line bidding (a TON less time involved)

two thumbs up!

Well TOO BAD, I don't know what you are talking about but being junior with PBS $ucks. Being senior is great, since you will likely get most of what you want. Being junior you have to try to bid everything and see if something sticks. Being senior allows you to bid only a few things and one will likely stick. What are you talking about? Line bidding allows you to trade trips prior to reserve guys getting them---or gives you first dibs.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

General,

The PBS system you had at Delta Express was written by Adopt. That system, IMO, is not pilot friendly. Additionally, when you all agreed to use it you knew nothing about it and you had no control of its parameters. It was company controlled. That's why it didn't work and you didn't like it.

A good PBS system, contractually regulated by the union and the company jointly, is way better than traditional line bidding. Everything depends on how your contract is written and what limits/controls the union has.

Airwares probably makes the best system. The NWA pilots use it, ask them. However, they didn't go into it blind (like you all did at Express). I think TWA also used Airwares initially but eventually the company forced them into Adopt.

Don't get me wrong Adopt can be made to work if you have the right controls, but it's not pilot friendly at all. It's algorithms definitely aren't advantageous to pilots and those good at math can take advantage of those not so good.

Any PBS system that is not thorougly understood and does not include contractual controls will be a negative for pilots and a plus for the company. Do your homework before you agree to it.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,


In our latest agreement with management, we were allowed to choose the PBS system. I am sure Dalpa will find the best one that helps us out the most, while allowing the company many advantages too.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[klhoard]

. . .<snip>. . .
Bottom line, the union and the company will have to work together . . .<snip>. . ..

.
.
And that, gentlemen, is the rub. . . .
.
.
.

 

[SF3CA]

I think what most of us at FedEx are afraid of is loss of trip conflicting with our vacation. PBS will put an end to that. Our vacation policy is awsome, but one of the reasons that it is so good is that anyone can turn 7 days of vacation into 21 days off by conflicting trips.

It will be a hard sell

 

[FoxHunter]

I think what most of us at FedEx are afraid of is loss of trip conflicting with our vacation. PBS will put an end to that. Our vacation policy is awsome, but one of the reasons that it is so good is that anyone can turn 7 days of vacation into 21 days off by conflicting trips.

It will be a hard sell

Yes, there will be no more using a 7 day vacation to knock out a whole month or two months if your senior and on the right aircraft. Since the real limit is your vacation bank PBS will work fine with vacations. You can say good bye to leaving 40% of your vacation in the bank for payment at the end of the year. It will actually force people to use their vacation hours. the fact is that PBS in the area of vacations will cause a requirement for more pilots, not less.

 

[75M]

I think what most of us at FedEx are afraid of is loss of trip conflicting with our vacation. PBS will put an end to that. Our vacation policy is awsome, but one of the reasons that it is so good is that anyone can turn 7 days of vacation into 21 days off by conflicting trips.

IMHO, the trade off is eleven months of great QOL for one month of potential vacation conflicts. For me, the trade was well worth it.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

In our latest agreement with management, we were allowed to choose the PBS system. I am sure Dalpa will find the best one that helps us out the most, while allowing the company many advantages too.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

You spoke of the system you used at Delta Express, not one that you may use in the future. That Delta Express system was a bad choice made without due dilligence.

I too hope that your next choice will be better advised and studied before it is implemented. Good luck.

 

[surplus1]

75M,

Are your opinions based on the Airwares system or the one (Adopt) that you were eventually forced to use?

 

[fr8doggie]

Cliff_S:


Don't know where you sit on the MD-11 seniority list but bid a secondary line for awhile and see how you like it. FedEx uses PBS to build the secondary lines.

The big problem, as KL_H stated is that management will not allow any union input on how the PBS operates.

I'm totally against it.

 

[klhoard]

.
.
I think what most guys (including me) are now thinking is that we'd rather stick with a known quantity - bidpacks - than step off a cliff into the "great unknown". Even if that "unknown" has the possibility of being a good deal.
.
.
Case in point is the increasing number of disputed pairings in the MD-11. Try flying 7+30, then quick turning for another 1+20 into a foreign country. We have a joint union / company scheduling team in place, but it is obvious that our concerns with these pairings is falling on deaf ears. The $$$'s are overriding the union side of the "team". We can dispute all we want, but the final arbiter of our "disputes" is the company themselves. . .
.
.
Now extrapolate the disputed pairings process to a monthly software bidding program where the final word is the company and you can easily see our concerns. Once the system is in place, it will be next to impossible to go back.
.
.
BTW - what ever happened to the "Feel the Pain" program where our senior flight managers go fly these pairings??
.
.
.

 

[md83drvr]

I used PBS at TWA. By far the best way to bid. I just flew a 4 day trip with a guy who spent all four days trying to figure out his bid. It drives me insane having to look through 300+ lines. With PBS I set up my default bid, and usually didn't think about it unless I needed a day off or vacation.

The company and union must come to an agreement on how the parameters will be set, work rules, min time, etc. I disagree with the guys that don't like it, usually they don't understand the program. It can benefit the pilots, much less time bidding, better line construction, more control over your schedule. I would rather have a computer build the lines, that has been set by union and company, than have the company construct the lines. No matter how good a line is there is always a trip you don't like. PBS will eleiminate that for the most part.

Once you use a PBS you will never wat to line bid again.

-83

 

[FoxHunter]

.
.

Case in point is the increasing number of disputed pairings in the MD-11. Try flying 7+30, then quick turning for another 1+20 into a foreign country. We have a joint union / company scheduling team in place, but it is obvious that our concerns with these pairings is falling on deaf ears. The $$$'s are overriding the union side of the "team". We can dispute all we want, but the final arbiter of our "disputes" is the company themselves. . ..
.

You must be kidding. You are talking about the trips that leave Anchorage around 8-10am local time, fly to Narita, and then fly to the final destination. All daylight flying, except in the middle of winter, everyone shows up rested because of the departure time, usually no one really needs a break because no one is tired. This is probably the easiest international flying with the exception of the trips that go only ANC-NRT.

 

[75M]

75M,

Are your opinions based on the Airwares system or the one (Adopt) that you were eventually forced to use?

AdOpt. Worked great. Lots of options.

 

[NuGuy]

NWA uses the Airware system, and it absolutely rocks. Even junior guys have some measure of control over their schedule, which is a huge improvement.

The caveot, however, is that you have to have ROCK SOLID CONTROL over the program code involved. No ifs, ands or buts. Do not leave the various program settings and "tweaks" in the code left to the company to work you over with.

Be in a position where the union can pull the plug at any time and go back to the paper bidding method. The company will grow addicted to the increase in productivity, and if you can hang this sword over their heads, you can turn the screws and keep them tight. You need that kind of leverage to keep things on the up and up.

Best bet is to have a commitee go visit NWA ALPA's commitee. They had things set up right, and there is no reason to re-invent the wheel.

Nu

 

[klhoard]

You must be kidding. You are talking about the trips that leave Anchorage around 8-10am local time, fly to Narita, and then fly to the final destination. All daylight flying, except in the middle of winter, everyone shows up rested because of the departure time, usually no one really needs a break because no one is tired. This is probably the easiest international flying with the exception of the trips that go only ANC-NRT.

.
.
Well, then I guess I'll start requesting them in my VTO's, or better yet VLT. They should be pretty easy to get. . .
.
.
.

 

[surplus1]

NWA uses the Airware system, and it absolutely rocks. Even junior guys have some measure of control over their schedule, which is a huge improvement.

The caveot, however, is that you have to have ROCK SOLID CONTROL over the program code involved. No ifs, ands or buts. Do not leave the various program settings and "tweaks" in the code left to the company to work you over with.

Be in a position where the union can pull the plug at any time and go back to the paper bidding method. The company will grow addicted to the increase in productivity, and if you can hang this sword over their heads, you can turn the screws and keep them tight. You need that kind of leverage to keep things on the up and up.

Best bet is to have a commitee go visit NWA ALPA's commitee. They had things set up right, and there is no reason to re-invent the wheel.

Nu

You are, IMO, 100% correct. NWA picked the best software and wrote the "right" contractual terms. It not only works, it works well. Kudos to your scheduling committe.

Perhaps you will get the FedX folks to visit and learn from NWA people, should they decide to take a serious look. At Delta, it is unfortunately more likely that they will re-invent the wheel and it won't be round.

At CMR we have been using PBS since 1987. The system we have is decidedly not the best, it is outdated (even though it has been "patched" more often than Microsoft products). However, we do have very specific contractual control of the current system and the right to reject any replacement. Several years ago (same time frame as NWA), we chose Airwares as the tentative replacement and set it up right for us. When Delta bought our company, the Airwares effort was canned and as you might guess, the Company pushed for AdOpt, the same junk used at Delta Express. Since then we have been unable to reach an agreement and the outdated system remains in place as a result.

We will never give up the "rock solid control" you mentioned, regardless of which software we use. It is absolutely essential. Without it, seniority can easily by rendered useless by the Company. ALL PBS programs contain the hidden code "tweaks" that you mention. If the union is unaware of what they are and cannot control them, you'll be taken to the cleaners by the Company without recourse.

Another thing to consider is this. A PBS system does not build trips (pairings), it awards trips built by a different system. Therefore if you have no control over the trip build parameters you could wind up with the classic garbage-in, garbage-out. If all the pairings are bad, the PBS system will award those bad pairings. It can't give you what isn't there to begin with. Both of these software programs should therefore be subject to union control and agreement, if you want the best.

Keep in mind that the company is already using computer software to construct the parings (trips) you see in your line-bid system. It is more than likey also using computer software to build the lines you now bid on. You just have no say in the process. Your merely get to "choose" a line built by the company from pairings built by the company.

IMO, a good PBS will still be better than line bids simply because you build your own line of time (from available pairings) the way you prefer it to be. The choices available exceed by far anything that the company will or can do in a preconstructed line of time.

You will have to learn how to use it, of course, but it is not difficult (ecepting the numbers game of AdOpt). AdOpt can work well if you're a geek but not so well if you're not. In contrast, Airwares is really simple.

A word of caution with the open time paramaters. If that's not right, the system will force unwanted trips on your line, regardless of your bid, as it seeks to meet the open time paramater. Called "stacking" or "the stack" by most programs, this is what can destroy seniority if you're not cautious. Airwares is best at managing the stack, IMO.

Disclaimer: I do not have now, and I have never had any business relationship with the company that makes Airware or any of its principals. I also have no investment of any kind in that company. To the best of my knowledge, I also have no relatives or friends employed by that company. I just happen to think they wrote the best program (for pilots) of the lot.

Good luck.

 

[Cliff_S]

I'm near the bottom in ANC so I'm pretty used to VTOs. They've been fine for me most of the time. HOWEVER, I only list one requirement: "Desire one commute" and I generally get that. Don't know what I'd do if I had real options...!

The ANC-NRT-NGO lines seem like they'd be easy to fly, but I avoid them because they're disputed. The union disputes them on the grounds they violate the intent of having an RFO, and I support that. If we don't, I can see the company adding RFOs for all sorts of weird combinations.

Surplus1, NuGuy, and 75M, thanks a lot for your detailed replies.

 

[FoxHunter]

The ANC-NRT-NGO lines seem like they'd be easy to fly, but I avoid them because they're disputed. The union disputes them on the grounds they violate the intent of having an RFO, and I support that. If we don't, I can see the company adding RFOs for all sorts of weird combinations.

So you agree that the flying is easy, but you support the union because someone decided it is not. Some may claim it violates the intent of having a RFO, it does not. The union appears to pick fights over issues that sould never have been issues. They seem to have managed to establish a solid 100% average. That, is on the loss side.

 

[VaB]

So you agree that the flying is easy, but you support the union because someone decided it is not. Some may claim it violates the intent of having a RFO, it does not. The union appears to pick fights over issues that sould never have been issues. They seem to have managed to establish a solid 100% average. That, is on the loss side.

Easy there girls. This is not the place for this discussion. Why don't you guys meet up in the F Street, then you can go beat each others brains in over this one. However, I wouldn't do it here. Everybody's reading.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

With the current state of the airline industry, at least the passenger side of it, I believe that PBS will become the "industry standard" as carriers attempt to realize every possible efficiency in their operation. If your carrier is not making money, it probably cannot afford to have pilots off for a month using one week of vacation. Pilots per airplane and pilots per block hour are what every airline needs to minimize.

 

[NuGuy]

You will have to learn how to use it, of course, but it is not difficult (ecepting the numbers game of AdOpt). AdOpt can work well if you're a geek but not so well if you're not. In contrast, Airwares is really simple.

Heyas Fins,

You are correct. As best I understand it, the AdOpt system only allows you indirect control over your bid line, using a set of weights in your bid. The Airware system, however, allows direct control.

You are also correct about the trips. The company will use a seperate program to generate the trips. If they build bad trips, there's not much you can do about it.

Nu

 

[klhoard]

So you agree that the flying is easy, but you support the union because someone decided it is not. Some may claim it violates the intent of having a RFO, it does not. The union appears to pick fights over issues that sould never have been issues. They seem to have managed to establish a solid 100% average. That, is on the loss side.

.
.
So. . . why not double crew the ANC departure and then you can probably make ANC - NRT - NGO - SFS - BKK - ALA all in one duty period!!!
.
.
It should be easy flying, right? I mean you start out in daylight.
.
.

 

[FoxHunter]

.
.
So. . . why not double crew the ANC departure and then you can probably make ANC - NRT - NGO - SFS - BKK - ALA all in one duty period!!!
.
.
It should be easy flying, right? I mean you start out in daylight.
.
.

No, you would run out of both duty and flight time. You can add that it would be an abuse. Two daytime legs are just fine, we've done it for years to Europe at the wrong side of the clock. If you had an open mind, rather than the "Party Line", you would find out some of the problems are not really problems at all. Just created problems to stir the troops up.

You can see the responses from people that have worked with PBS are for the most part positive, not the "PBS over my dead body" rhetoric I hear among the crew force at FedEx. I'm sort of senior now and can use the present system very much to my advantage, but I realize PBS may be better from both the pilot and company position. As far as I see the big problem is how PBS is used, not the system itself.