Young pilot needs advice

[adam_jorgensen]

Hi there. After lurking around here for a while, I have managed to find some good info. There are a tone of experienced pilots here compared to me. I am 17 years old and have just started flight training 2 months ago. One thing I haven't seen much though is pilots around my age. Oh well.

My future dream is to be like most of you guys around here who fly for major airlines. How I am going to get there? I have an idea. I figure, once I'm done high school, work for a year or a little more to save up for university, get my degree while doing my flight training at the same time, look for probably a job as a CFI than hopefully after that like say around 1000 or more hours, fly for a regional, fly for them for a few years until I have the accumulated hours required for a major airline. I hope I can get all this done in 13 years by the time I'm 30 years old. Do you think that's possible or are my expectations too high? I know and accept that I may or may not get it done in 13 years but I will give it my best shot.

Does everybody think 17 is a good age to start at? What routes did you all take? Does it seem like a hard dream to accomplish, I mean, flight training is pretty hard right now. I have never learned to do something this difficult before. If its this hard now, I hope that getting in with a major won't be impossible.

Do you think the airline industry will be better in 13 years? Things are pretty bad now with 9/11 and all the furloughed pilots. I'm having a hard time looking for a part time job for some little pettily place. If I can't find a simple job, how will I ever get into the majors?

 

[KingAirer]

First piece of advice i can give is change your screen name to something other then your name!

Second, your on the right track and your goals are certainly attainable.

 

[bobbysamd]

Career plans

I agree with most of what you propose, but don't count on hitting all your gates as planned. For one thing, it might take substantially more hours than 1000 to qualify for the regionals. Then, after the regionals, nothing is guaranteed. You'll be facing stiff competition from regional airline guys and gals like you, from older pilots with more experience than you, and from military pilots, who always go to the head of the line for jobs with the majors. I'm not saying that it cannot be done, but build some flexibility in your timetable.

Pay good attention to the times we're now in. Pilot hiring is always economy-driven. Two and three years ago, there was plenty of hiring. But that period followed a downturn from approximately 1990 to 1995, give or take a year. When times are bad, times are extremely bad for pilots. When times are good, times are very good.

Above all, be sure to earn your four-year degree from an accredited college. The majors look for it, want it, and expect it. You need it because you should have an education. You might need it as your backup plan in case aviation doesn't work out for you. Believe me, aviation doesn't always work out for those who seek it.

Good luck with your training and with your plans.

PS-Now that I mention competition from military pilots, why don't you consider that option? Not only will you get the best flight training and experience around, but your hiring chances will get a significant boost. In other words, if you can't like 'em, join 'em.

 

[Timebuilder]

I often agree with Bobby, but I have some things to add.

No one knows when the major airlines will do any signifigant hiring. Because of the events of 9/11, and a recession at the end of the longest running bull market on resord, times have changed. If you are well prepared, you will have a reasonable shot at attaining your goals. There is no crystal ball, but 13 years of regular flying would certainly be a good start toward the big iron.

Now, as in THIS WEEK, get a first class medical. It will be a requirement in the professional ranks, and you'll need it for your dream job. Find out NOW, before you are in ther hole for 100k dollars, that you can attain and KEEP a first class medical. How is your family medical history? Take a parent along for a frank discussion with the AME.

Do get the degree, but get it in something OTHER than aviation, so you will have work in the bad times.

 

[350DRIVER]

Adam-
There are many many ways to get where you want to get to and alot of "how" you get there will be up to you. I would keep ALL options open at this time and talk to as many pilots and people in the industry as you can. The hiring WILL be back at the majors, just a matter of time and the good times as well will be back in the future. I would take baby steps first and not get caught up in the "dream" of flying for a "major" since it is a very l o n g road to get to that point. I have seen many pilots loose interest in aviation early on in there flight training days when they realized how much work and effort it took to get to a "major".... I would however get "caught" up in your flight training and do as much as you can to be the best possible pilot and things will happen in time. Gain as much experience as possible on E V E R Y level since this training is the foundation for your future.

Stay away from any and all of the pay for training (PFT) programs since it is not accepted by many and can make for a long and bumpy road for you down the line when you are interviewing at a major. There are many programs available that have alot to offer and can "speed" things up for you and get you to a major quicker than the traditional route (s) . I am a big fan of the Mesa Airlines Pilot Development Program (MAPD) since they get you to the right seat of a CRJ at around 300 hours or so and you are trained the "airline" way from day 1. A tad expensive but well worth it in my opinion and will save you alot of time "IF" you want to go this route....- (just an option that I would suggest you look into)- Wish I would have went this route...

Anyways good luck to you -

3 5 0

 

[aviatrix]

welcome!

First of all, let me say congratulations on starting flight training! You're in store for one of the most exhilarating experiences ever! I also started flying young, but flew for fun and not in pursuit of a career! Then I started working in corporate America and, well, cubicles will never compare to cockpits...and so I decided to turn my "love" into a career.
It's definitely good to have goals, but I agree with taking small steps toward your large goal of "the big birds." As many on this board can confirm, "the plan" rarely works out the way we want it to, and things in this industry can change radically in an instant. Be flexible and CYB (the same as CYA, but since you're a minor, I must refrain!)
Get the best flight training you can! Especially for the Instrument Rating, since that is really the most complicated and most applicable rating!
And fly for fun! It's so much fun at the stage you're in, so do not get too bogged-down in the career thoughts. It will all come together for you if you love it as much as we all do!
Best wishes!

 

[de727ups]

The Plan...

It sounds to be like you have a good idea of what it takes and how to get there. Just be ready for curve balls...the main thing is to not get discouraged and never give up. No plan ever goes as planned.....

 

[adam_jorgensen]

Thanks for the advice guys. Couldent have come from anything better than experienced pilots.

But one thing that allot of pilots have said to me is that becoming a pilot for a major airline company is almost impossible. I've gotten the impression that you might as well become an astronaut when becoming a pilot. I know the road will be hard but I wish people would look at the positive side instead of always the negative. I'm not expecting anything sugar coated or anything, but it almost just seems like their trying to scare away pilots into trying to accomplish their dream. I never really hear the good stories of becoming a pilot, but always the bad ones. I'm rather ambitious when it comes to my dream of flying for a major, but I am well aware of what could go wrong and what you have to do. I'm not living in some fantasy world, I am prepared for reality, but I believe in encouraging new pilots, at least that is what I would do if someone told me they wanted to be a pilot for a major airline. What is so hard about it? The way I see it from reading many pilots stories, its not so much getting the experience needed for the requirements, but rather waiting for a call back from the airline you applied for. How do you stand out from the rest? That is what I strive for when I apply somewhere.

How many hours do you need for a regional airline? What about a major? I figure I would apply for a major when I have around 10,000 hours. Would this be enough?

How many years did it take for most of you guys to reach your goal or dream or just where you wanted to be in your flying career?

Your right about the medical. I did the class 1 medical exam and I am just waiting for the piece of paper to arrive in the mail. Hopefully, I got it. I know the results with everything except the cardiograph, which is probably fine. I hate worries like that. Worrying if you got your class 1 medical, or in the future, when you apply for an airline and your sitting by that phone waiting to hear a call back.

Probably will be all civilian route for me. I am not interested in the military even though its easy and free. One thing I really hate is when people say that you cannot get a job with the majors unless you were in the military. Yea, you have a better chance of getting in with them, but that doesn't mean its the only way to do, and if you went the civilian route, they won't even look at you.

A degree is really important to me. A major won't care what university or collage you went to or what kind of degree you have do they? If I went to an aviation university like Embry riddle, compared to a local collage in my area that offers a degree in aviation, plus all the flight training for probably a third of the cost, but probably nobody has ever heard of it, would it matter to a major? Is there more reckonable universities that heighten the chances of you getting hired? What about the kind of degree you have or what its in? Would it make any difference to them if it was a bachelor of arts or a bachelor of science? I was thinking of getting a degree in forestry because this is probably my second interest to flying (more or less, just something I would enjoy doing if I couldn't fly, doesn't mean I have a passion for it.) Would this matter to a major if it was a degree in forestry, or a degree in airport management?

Should know this, but what is an accredited college?

Basically my only fuzzy view on the future is how will I get the money for university and flight training? Especially aviation universities which are very expensive. How did most of you guys here do it? I am flexible and are willing to always begin at the entry level when it comes to flying. I would even enjoy being a CFI even though its lousy pay but that's not what I am in it for. I'm doing it because I have a passion for flying and are fascinated with it. I'm even volunteering at an aviation museum just because its right by our major airport and I love being around the planes and hearing the sound of the turboprops and jets that taxi right by the hanger I'm in where I clean airplanes. I sit in front of the windows that over look the runways for as long as an hour just dreaming. I even get excited when just a small single airplane is landing!

Sorry for the many annoying questions. I'm trying to network with allot of pilots and accumulate all the knowledge I can get. I love hearing about pilots jobs and how they accomplished it.

P.S. I live in Canada. Here, the airline industry isn't based on economy as much as the USA is. We only really have one major airline and that is Air Canada. I barely hear of pilots getting furloughed here in Canada. That is probably the only thing though that is better in Canada than the USA, and that is your more likely to be hired by Air Canada at any time then if you were to apply at several major USA airlines. Not comparing, but you just don't see it as much in Canada as you do in the USA. Compared to the thousands of pilots that got furloughed in the USA after sept 11, Canada only had something like 250 in the entire country that lost their jobs.

 

[Timebuilder]

Persistance and determination will be your best tools. Don't ever get arrested, get the best grades you posssibly can achieve, and do some math and science to "keep it real". Avoid any kind of partying, to always have a clear and reasoned thought process. Craft yourself into the kind of upstanding man you'd want your sister to marry, and you'll be on the right track.

What times will you need? That always changes with demand. Right now, demand is low, so times are high. My personal take on the situation is that you will be an experienced flight instructor before hiring picks up again. You may even be an experienced charter pilot by then, who knows.

I encourage you to not exclude the military as a great option. Not only will you learn to fly, but you'll learn several other lessons that will give you an edge in your life. You'll see others make mistakes first hand, and learn from them without having to make them all yourself. I consider my academy days to have been very valuable.

You don't need Embry Riddle to fly for a major airline. A good degree, one that you can actually use to earn a living, from a decent school, is all you need. Colleges are accredited by regional organizations here, I'm not sure about Canada. A guidance counselor can explain your situation better than I can.

Why not set your sights on Air Canada? As a native, you enjoy an advantage that you won't have down here. Use it. Start developing friendships with pilots on your ramp, and before you know it you'll be seeing that big Air Canada jet from the inside.

 

[350DRIVER]

But one thing that allot of pilots have said to me is that becoming a pilot for a major airline company is almost impossible.

N O T H I N G is "impossible" if you put your mind to it and you never give up. If you want something bad enough then no one except yourself can stand in the way. Don't let the negative comments get to you, it is just a part of life here in the states since alot of people are pretty unhappy with the present situation and circumstances currently surrounding our industry.

I fly many trips into Canada and have met many pilots who have gotten hired flying right seat at a relatively low TT. I ran into an Air Creebec (sp?) flight crew this past week and the first officer was hired right at 300 hours total time into the right seat of a 1900 so keep the faith and your options open and be positive and optimistic.

How do you stand out from the rest?

The best way to stand out is to be able to add as many qualifications to your resume and continue to "improve" in ALL areas. E X P E R I E N C E is not measured just in "flight hours" but more importantly how much you have you have been able to take from every level.

good luck

3 5 0

 

[bobbysamd]

Aviation career planning

But one thing that allot of pilots have said to me is that becoming a pilot for a major airline company is almost impossible. I've gotten the impression that you might as well become an astronaut when becoming a pilot.

Maybe a bit overstated, but an apt analogy. It is not impossible, by any means, to become a pilot for a major airliine. You simply cannot compare it to toddling on down to Wal-Mart and putting in an application. The major thing with which to deal is the competition. Ask any major airline H.R. person. There are 100 qualified applicants available for every one opening. 1:100 odds. Those are hard to overcome. But, it is not impossible.

How many hours do you need for a regional airline?

Most regionals down here want no less than 1200 total and 200 of multi. But, the applicant pool drives the actual quals for hire. Realistically, and some may disagree, multiply the above by two for more realistic hiring mins.

What about a major? I figure I would apply for a major when I have around 10,000 hours. Would this be enough?

More than enough. Ideally, you need 1000 hours of PIC turbine. You can get that as a commuter captain. You would be competitive for the majors with that and maybe 3000-5000 total.

A major won't care what university or collage you went to or what kind of degree you have do they? If I went to an aviation university like Embry riddle, compared to a local collage in my area that offers a degree in aviation, plus all the flight training for probably a third of the cost, but probably nobody has ever heard of it, would it matter to a major?

It is more important to have the degree. Nothing the matter, of course, with earning an Aeronautical Science degree at ERAU, but what matters most is (1) that you have the degree and (2) that is is from an accredited college. In the U.S., there are six governing bodies recognized by the Department of Education as those which accredit college. Examples include the North Central Association and the New England Association. The Southern Association accredits Riddle. Without accreditation, your degree probably won't be worth a quarter. Once more, it makes no difference if you degree is a B.A. or B.S. A degree in Forestry or Airport Management would be just fine.

Hope this helps further. Once again, good luck with your plans.

PS-We have a poster who attends the aviation program at the University of Western Ontario. You might check it out as a Riddle alternative.

 

[wingnutt]

Probably will be all civilian route for me. I am not interested in the military even though its easy and free. One thing I really hate is when people say that you cannot get a job with the majors unless you were in the military. Yea, you have a better chance of getting in with them, but that doesn't mean its the only way to do, and if you went the civilian route, they won't even look at you.

ok...i for one, think you are eliminating yourself from one very good option. keep in mind that neither the civilian nor the military route will guarantee you an 'in' at any major, but the kind of flight time you can acquire in the military is basically unrivaled anywhere else.

"easy and free"? that makes me laugh. im sorry, but i dont consider anything where you have to sign a contract for a number of years as "free". sure, it may not be dollars out of your pocket, but money is not the only type of currency to be considered. and "easy"??? talk to all the washouts that thought the same thing. how they thought that once you got into the training, they were under the impression that the military would "get you through" the training no matter what. if it were easy, do you think the majors would be in any sort of mindset to bring them into their ranks?

• the type of training youll get
• the type of flight time in your logbook
• the type of equipment youve flown
• the military discipline you will acquire
• the networking you can achieve

alll great reasons not dismiss the military so easily...especially when youre young

 

[KC-10 Driver]

Adam,

I certainly respect your choice to not join the military, but there is one other "option" to consider. In the U.S., it is possible to get hired directly into a military Reserve or Air National Guard unit.

I imagine that there may be similar possibilities in Canada?

If you don't want to commit yourselve to serving on active duty, it may be possible to be selected by a reserve unit, and get military flight training that way. This might be a much more attractive option. Perhaps something to look into?

By the way, you certainly came to the right place for advice and opinion (sometimes more than you bargain for!).

Good luck.

 

[Timebuilder]

By the way, you certainly came to the right place for advice and opinion (sometimes more than you bargain for!).

Boy, isn't that the truth.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

How long?

Adam-

First of all let me explain that I paid for nearly all of my flying myself. I would suggest that you get some outside help in the form of loans or parental help.

Pvt. Pilot Groundschool to solo was about 3 months.

PPGS to PVT was 1.5 yrs.

PPGS to Instrument rating was 5.2 yrs.

PPGS to Commercial/Multi rating was 6.1 yrs.

PPGS to college degree was 6.4 yrs.

PPGS to CFI was 7.5 yrs.

PPGS to first part 135 job was 9.4 yrs.

PPGS to first turbine a/c (Twin Otter) was 10.7 yrs.

PPGS to first commuter job was 11 yrs.

PPGS to first jet job (DC-8) was 12.6 yrs.

PPGS to major airline was 15.2 yrs.

PPGS to first pilot furlough from a major........probably 18 yrs. (Haven't been furloughed yet, but expect it by Feb.)

Expected to be out on the street from said major....3-4 yrs.

Again, I must stress, get some loans or other financial help to speed up the process. It took me over 15 years to get to a major (9 years after I started applying to this major). I've flown with a Captain who I actually trained for his Private back in '92! Once you get that first part135 job things will begin to roll quite quickly.

Hang in there and don't give up. Good luck.

Cheers!

GP

 

[Timebuilder]

Another perspective on timing:

Private, Instrument, Multi, Commercial.

2 1/2 years, while working a full time job.



CFI (using three different flight instructors)

another six months, done leisurely


CFII, MEI, as a working instructor, and charter on the side

another year


four months after being laid off (post 9/11)

Learjet SIC job


If I was under forty, and wanted a 121 job? Who knows.


The point is, you can move along quickly up until you work as an instructor at your school. At that point, the market for flight instructors to move into entry level charter/cargo/regional flying will determine how far and how fast you will progress. After that, it becomes a matter of networking, your record as a pilot, meeting the minimums required, and any hiring preferences the employer might have.

 

[dogg]

Man you guys are jaded:

Adam you are at a perfect time in the cycle to be getting your career underway. First there is no rush. So stay away from all the schools that are offering to get you all your ratings right now for 40,000.00 . You have a few of things to do. 1) get ratings 2) get a four year degree 3) build experience and accumulate flight time.

Ratings are important but before you run out and get all of them consider focusing on getting your cfii. That of course requires that you get com/inst ratings. Next think about a college degree that is not aviation related that can provide you with a good income. When you come up with a degree, find out if you can take core classes at your community college for a couple of years. During that 2-3 year period complete your cfii and start instructing.

Remember time is on your side, so don't worry about rushing through college.
The goal is to get out of college with a money making degree and 1000-1500 hours.

If you can accomplish all of this by age 23 you will be golden. And here is why. In 5 years the aviation business will be crawling back up. Most of the furloughed pilots will either be back at work or working in a different field. Regional airlines will be starting to retire pilots for the first time in their history. At 24 you will be hired at a regional into a jet and by 29 or 30 you will be working for a major airline. And look at it this way, at 30 you will have a 30 year career with your chosen major. That is almost too long, so press on be smart, don't get in a rush and you will do just fine.

Oh yea, don't pay a whole lot of attention to all the doom and gloom on this board. Pilots are experts at everything. And if you wait 1 second too long to ask them they will tell you anyway.
Remember, the things they all say on this board are just the limitations in their lives and have nothing to do with you.............

 

[Timebuilder]

Dogg has capsulized a lot of what we are saying to you.

However, don't be too quick to dismiss the caveats and observations of the experienced pilots here. Only time and your own experience will bear out the value of what you find written here.

There are a great many changes going on in this industry, and my prediction is that the traditional airline job that many have enjoyed, and will soon retire from, is a shrinking commodity. This is due to the stongest force on the planet: the Market Force. We have had many discussions about this, but all our words are mute in the face of the market.

We can make many educated guesses about where the business of aviation will be in 15 years, but one thing is certain: it won't be the same as it was in 2000. There are changes in the labor pool, the willingness to join in traditional airline union membership, the business structure of sucessful operators, the size and type of aircraft used, and the flight of the business customer from major airlines. None of this means that you can't have a satisfying career at a major airline. It DOES mean that you may find that you may prefer a job at some other operation instead of a "major" airline.

You can be optimistic about the chances of having a great career in aviation, if you apply yourself. This business has gone through MANY changes. These changes are different, but the business itself will always be there to fulfill the need to travel.

 

[adam_jorgensen]

Thanks again everybody for your great advice. I guess this could be a start to "networking" before I find some real life pilots to talk to other than on the internet all the time. I hope networking on the net counts somewhat. At my age now, how could I network? I really want to get a job at our airport. Applied 8 months ago, haven't herd anything. I think I'm probably too young to work there yet. I probably have to be 18 so I will try again when I turn 18. I could be a ramp rat. I would love to do that and I would meet allot of pilots. That in itself is a second dream, to work for our airport being a ramp rat! Other than that, the closets I'm at to a job to do with airplanes is volunteering at our aviation museum cleaning vintage airplanes and a gorgeous DC-3 from the sixties although, I don't think too many pilots would wonder through unless they persevered their skeletons from the time the planes ran!

I'm not leaving out the military as an option but I will most likely not go, I just don't think I would enjoy the life style. If I were to go, I would might do it after I went to collage to get a 4 year degree or could you do that through the military? KC-10 Driver, could you give me a little more details on being a reserve unit in the military? It sounds a little more appealing. Its just that I'm not that rough type military person. I'm very disciplined, but at the same time, sorta a bit of a sissy. I wouldn't last a day there.

I don't want to concentrate on getting to my goal in a certain time period. I just hope its not like I'm waiting and waiting many years for my big break at something I tried so hard at. I know how that feels already. Not a day goes by that I would wish the airport would call me back. I followed up like 6 times on that reminding the personal manager that I'm still very interested even after 8 months of applying there. I don't know if I will ever get in with them. If I can't even get in with an airport to begin with, how will I ever get it in with the airports planes to begin with? I'm the kind of person who doesn't like to sit around on his butt all day wondering if he should accomplish something. I know how sitting on a fence not making decisions has ruined peoples lives that I know so I want to avoid that at all costs.

 

[bobbysamd]

One more piece of advice . . . .

. . . . which, it appears, you don't need, but I'll offer it anyway.

Pilots make a great number of career (and life-changing) decisions based on incomplete information, rumor, opinion, and, last but not least, speculation. There is precious little objective information upon which to rely.

For example, as you progress in your career you will hear that "X" carrier is hiring. "X" carrier would be a good move for you, but for stories you hear about poor management, poor wages, unreasonable training, pilot pushing (an old term meaning pilots being threatened with dismissal if they don't fly a particular trip in marginal weather). You have to consider the source. Maybe the source of that information is someone disaffected with the company (and there is no shortage of pilots who are disaffected with their company(ies) ). In reality, the place may be alright. The long and short of it is ask the same question to several people and see if you can draw a consensus of opinion. Chances are, that consensus will be close to the truth.

There are few people with absolutely identical experiences on this board. Everyone's experience is different in some way. That's what makes this board a great resource to all kinds of pilots.

Once again, best of luck with your plans. You are at the perfect age to begin preparing for a piloting career.