xjt's hr is racially biased

[English]

If you are female then you are a minority as far as the airlines are concerned.

My wife is a pilot also. At the time that we were both looking to get hired with the regionals we both had almost the same time and experience, CFI, 135 Freight 2500 TT and 1000 multi. The difference? I interviewed with 3 carriers and was offered a job by two. Each interview was a two day deal with written tests and a sim ride. She was hired over the phone and the first time she set foot on the airlines property was her first day of class. (the regional in question liked pilots from our freight outfit)

I made Capt. at my airline first (more movement) so I got my PIC time and got hired with a major before she had even sent out a resume to any majors. Now here is the really good part, while I was in ground school I was speaking to one of the instructors and she found out that my wife was flying a Dash 8. She immediatly asked if my wife would be interested in working for the airline!! It was made clear to me that she would indeed have to go through the interview process but that it would only be a formality. Basically my wife had a guaranteed job if she wanted it sight unseen.....simply for being a female pilot with 121 experience and an internal recommendation from a pilot. (me!) She passed on the position since she was in baby mode at the time but the offer was there.

So yes English, you do fall under the catagory of minority. No flame intended but no matter how you look at it, women pilots have a much easier time getting to the majors than do males, as long as there are so few qualified women pilots out there. But its all good, at least I have a fall back plan if my career goes any further down the toilet! I can always get my wife hired quicker than I can!!!!

That's all nice and dandy, and I'm happy for you and your wife. But how do you know for sure that it was her gender, and not the internal recommendation, that got her the job?

My comments to Freight Dog were about race, not gender. In both states I live in, we both are likely considered minorities (race-wise). I don't see how being a female makes one a minority when there are more women on the planet than men. I just don't buy into the "minority" labelling. I think anyone claiming xjt HR to be racially biased has some of their own bias issues to deal with.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

That's all nice and dandy, and I'm happy for you and your wife. But how do you know for sure that it was her gender, and not the internal recommendation, that got her the job?

Lets see....I believe it was the part where the company rep said "We are not getting enough women with 121 time applying and we are having a hard time filling spots. The company is seeking all the women pilots with advanced ratings that they can find and recruiting them"

I never was a rocket scientist but that sure sounds like it was gender based to me.

I don't know about post 9/11 but prior to that in the mid to late 90's if you were female and could fly an airplane halfway decent you were guaranteed a job with a major.

I don't care one way or the other, just don't try to blow smoke up my skirt and tell me that you didn't have any advantages over that male pilot that sat beside you in the interview class.

 

[English]

I don't care one way or the other, just don't try to blow smoke up my skirt and tell me that you didn't have any advantages over that male pilot that sat beside you in the interview class.

Where did I try blowing smoke up your skirt? I asked how you knew for sure that your wife was not offered a job based on her qualifications and skills as a pilot.

Sure, I had advantages over the guy who sat next to me the day I interviewed at my present job. I had an internal recomendation, PIC jet time, and a 737 type. He was hired too, without the internal rec, PIC jet time, or the 737 type, so read into it what you will. My point being that I was not hired because of my gender. If you think I was, then please explain to me why was the white guy sitting next to me was also hired?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Where did I try blowing smoke up your skirt? I asked how you knew for sure that your wife was not offered a job based on her qualifications and skills as a pilot.

Sure, I had advantages over the guy who sat next to me the day I interviewed at my present job. I had an internal recomendation, PIC jet time, and a 737 type. He was hired too, without the internal rec, PIC jet time, or the 737 type, so read into it what you will. My point being that I was not hired because of my gender. If you think I was, then please explain to me why was the white guy sitting next to me was also hired?

OK, Let me put it a different way. Your chances at getting an interview were much much better than a male pilot with the same qualifications, and internal rec. Women pilots used to make up about 6 % of the total pilot population (Old numbers but probably still close, includes all private and above ratings) however in the 90's women newhires at most of the majors made up about 8% of the new hires, I was told at United they accounted for 12 to 15% of the new hires. So if gender is not a factor how do you account for the women being hired at percentages that were far higher than they should be, given the total pilot population? Either every woman with a pilot certificate in the United States applied to a major and happened to be hired, or some preferential hiring/interviewing was occuring.

Having said that, I have no idea how Aloha's pilot population breaks down but I would bet that it's female new hire population is above the national % for total pilot population.

 

[English]

I agree that preferential hiring in favor of women has occurred in pilot hiring in the last years. I'm not arguing with you about that. I'm disagreeing with your comment that I was given "advantages over that white male pilot that sat beside me in the interview class", and that those advantages were because of my gender. I'm stating my advantages were because of my quals and an internal recommendation.

 

[Freight Dog]

He was hired too, without the internal rec, PIC jet time, or the 737 type, so read into it what you will.

Alright, I gotta ask... how do you get hired at Aloha without internal rec during the time period that you applied? To my knowledge, they didn't even look at the stack without internal recommendations.

 

[English]

I don't know...he was furloughed United.

 

[Freight Dog]

Then it's safe to presume one of the other furloughed UAL guys walked in his stuff.

 

[English]

It would be, except I asked him who he knew at Aloha, and he said no one.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I agree that preferential hiring in favor of women has occurred in pilot hiring in the last years. I'm not arguing with you about that. I'm disagreeing with your comment that I was given "advantages over that white male pilot that sat beside me in the interview class", and that those advantages were because of my gender. I'm stating my advantages were because of my quals and an internal recommendation.

You do have decent quals. However your time and experience is pretty low compared to what is out there right now. 4000 TT and a couple of type ratings is what you would have expected to see in a new hire class pre 9/11 for a civilian pilot. That is a good bit lower than the average resume that I receive even for a Citation driver these days. However Aloha is kind of a specialty airline given its routes and bases so maybe they don't have the same flood of resumes that the others still hiring have.


I have internal recs. in with almost every one that is hiring, twice your total time, and almost as much PIC Jet time as you have total, no violations, never failed a ride, college, and experience at a Major, as do most of my furloughed bretheren, yet somehow the only ones not having problems getting interviews are the ladies. I find it hard to beleive that it is all pure luck of the draw. How do you account for the disparity between the two groups?

Again, I have no problem with the practices, I know you catch a lot of crap from some of the old heads on the line just because you are female, but at the same time I don't ignore that it is happening. It could be that some of the carriers are shying away from the furloughed pilots because they may get recalled even if they resign, however if that were the case why are the women furloughees not having the same problems?

 

[FlyChicaga]

any thoughts? I have an idea of the answer but I want to know what the panel thinks!!!

My thoughts are that someone was not hired through the internal application process, which they previously believed was the gold ticket straight into a pilot position. Now, they are upset at the company for it, claiming unfair hiring practices and even racism. Strong allegations.

Well, that's just what I got based on your posting history. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[English]

I have internal recs. in with almost every one that is hiring, twice your total time, and almost as much PIC Jet time as you have total, no violations, never failed a ride, college, and experience at a Major, as do most of my furloughed bretheren, yet somehow the only ones not having problems getting interviews are the ladies. I find it hard to beleive that it is all pure luck of the draw. How do you account for the disparity between the two groups?

Yep, you beat me on the total time and jet PIC time. I have two degrees but according to pilotyip they are worthless. I've also never failed a checkride and have no accidents, incidents or violations. But, it's early, that could change any day now.

Honestly, I chalk it up to networking. After seeing the differences in the way my husband and I network, I'm convinced that women are just better at it, in general, than men are. When I meet people, I try to remember their name, hang on to their business card, make regular contact, and pass job leads on when I think it will help them. I help acquaintances prepare for airline interviews, do a lot of mentoring, and sometimes people do the same in return for me. I attend EVERY job fair and conference out there (except for OBAP, just because I haven't met anyone yet that has invited me to go). Next month I'll be at the AOPA convention and NBAA. Every year I attend the WIA conference and Airventure. So, I meet alot of people and many times those chance meetings result in leads. I agree with you that it is not luck of the draw, and I agree that women in general have an easier time of getting a job at a airline these days. We are better networkers.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Yep, you beat me on the total time and jet PIC time. I have two degrees but according to pilotyip they are worthless. I've also never failed a checkride and have no accidents, incidents or violations. But, it's early, that could change any day now.

Honestly, I chalk it up to networking. After seeing the differences in the way my husband and I network, I'm convinced that women are just better at it, in general, than men are. When I meet people, I try to remember their name, hang on to their business card, make regular contact, and pass job leads on when I think it will help them. I help acquaintances prepare for airline interviews, do a lot of mentoring, and sometimes people do the same in return for me. I attend EVERY job fair and conference out there (except for OBAP, just because I haven't met anyone yet that has invited me to go). Next month I'll be at the AOPA convention and NBAA. Every year I attend the WIA conference and Airventure. So, I meet alot of people and many times those chance meetings result in leads. I agree with you that it is not luck of the draw, and I agree that women in general have an easier time of getting a job at a airline these days. We are better networkers.

Networking....rriiigghhhttt.....

I will have to go with the previous posters comments...."You are so minority that you don't even know your a minority"

Anybody know a good cross dressing reference manual? I may want to improve my networking skills!! I would make one ugly chick though!!!!!

 

[dash8driver]

i dont believe networking in its true sense is gender specific. i believe the end results of all this "networking" involves other forces at work....

 

[350DRIVER]

My thoughts are that someone was not hired through the internal application process, which they previously believed was the gold ticket straight into a pilot position. Now, they are upset at the company for it, claiming unfair hiring practices and even racism. Strong allegations.

Well, that's just what I got based on your posting history. Correct me if I am wrong.

I think you are mistaken my friend. I was interviewed by John Dresser before even having completed the COEX Pilot Development Program through San Jacinto College and was offered a 1900 ground instructor position with them in Houston. Times have changed and I can assure you that Ms. "Martini" Dawn Daniels does indeed seek out female applicants and she will give them first dibs prior to anyone else. If you don't have the knowledge about what use to be the norms within the hiring department prior to Ms. Dawn taking over then it would be easy to come up with the above conclusions that you seem to have come up with. You will see some changes in "positions" in the hiring department, you can basically count on it. Many unhappy line pilots due to what has transpired in recent times. Respect was something that was lossed when John was shown the door, he could actually bring qualified applicants in for the interviews and not base things on "race" and "gender".

I don't think it has anything to do with applicants who were turned down and how hold a grudge against the company. It has everything to do with the lack of being able to fill classes with qualified applicants. When you lower your minimums down to 800 hours TT that is saying that something is not overly right here.

It isn't unfair hiring practices, it is simply a person who lost a medical and now is stuck trying to fill a guy's shoes that she will never be able to fill.

Respect will soon be restored to the hiring department, count on it. I had dinner with a IAH EXJT check airman last night and I can assure you that this "outrage" goes far beyond just "applicants" being turned away.

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