XJT MEC declares war on ASA pilots.

[JoeMerchant]

Again, ignorance. The XJT MEC has been researching PBS since 2008, when a BK filing was a possibility and the BK judge could have imposed it if it eer came to that. Can you show me where the XJT MEC is trying to push PBS on the XJT pilots? Do you have ANY emails of other form of communication that can back up that claim? I'd love to see it. You, and others are simply going on what was sound bit from a confidential executive session, NOTHING more.

XJT MEC resolution presented to the ASA MEC:

"resolve to seek cooperation and expertise of the ASA MEC to work together in exploring and developing work rules for Smartpref as a primary bidding system. If satisfactory work rules cannot be developed or the system cannot adequately function to the satisfaction of BOTH sides, EACH side will revert to its previous position on bidding systems"

 

[GeekMaster]

ASA PBS is not a concession. If it was, why do you think such an overwhelming majority of our pilots are ready to fight you to the bitter end to keep it. A globalizing PBS system with a single bid sheet of successively ranked pairings IS a concession and there is no way you're ever going to be able to develop work rules to make it give your pilots anything near the same quality of life they're used to.

Delta uses Navtech, a NON globalizing system. They are generally happy with it, though not as happy as we are with Prefbid. Virgin America uses prefbid and they are also happy with it. Continental, Comair, Skywest and many others use a globalizing system and they're NOT happy with it. See a trend here?

I know you're going to argue that this is a new system and is somehow different. But it ain't lookin' good so far.

On the other hand, a few work rule changes and prefbid can meet the xjt quality of life expectations. But that's not likely to happen since you guys have decided that "you're bigger so you're going to run the show and you're not going to accept prefbid no matter what because ASA likes it".

 

[dojetdriver]

XJT MEC resolution presented to the ASA MEC:

"resolve to seek cooperation and expertise of the ASA MEC to work together in exploring and developing work rules for Smartpref as a primary bidding system. If satisfactory work rules cannot be developed or the system cannot adequately function to the satisfaction of BOTH sides, EACH side will revert to its previous position on bidding systems"

Wow, great argument (rolleyes). What part of the word "exploring" means "being imposed"? How does the term "work together" translates into "declare war"?

ASA PBS is not a concession.

It is for the XJT side of the house. Again, you'r not reading/paying attention.

If it was, why do you think such an overwhelming majority of our pilots are ready to fight you to the bitter end to keep it.

Again, because PBS is better than the line bid system ASA had. but it's not better than the line bid system that XJT has. What's so hard to understand about that?

A globalizing PBS system with a single bid sheet of successively ranked pairings IS a concession and there is no way you're ever going to be able to develop work rules to make it give your pilots anything near the same quality of life they're used to.

On the other hand, a few work rule changes and prefbid can meet the xjt quality of life expectations. But that's not likely to happen since you guys have decided that "you're bigger so you're going to run the show and you're not going to accept prefbid no matter what because ASA likes it".

So you've read the report and seen all the research then?

 

[bigshooter107]

Kinda makes you wonder why the ASA management is growing the XJT side and not so much the ASA side.
Pretty sure this has to do with legacy xjet flying ERJs for continental and united vs crjs for delta. Our management does not have a lot to say about where growth lies when their are two different airplane types for two different customers....

 

[Nevets]

Ok, another thing that plays into the mix of this debate is that each pilot group comes from a known QOL thats dependent on each's contract. With that said, it's not hard to understand that IF the XJT side would go with PBS, the MECs would have to negotiate language to make it AT LEAST as good as current QOL, if not substantially better for just going through the pain of changing something that universally is liked by the pilots (our line bidding system and work rules and your PBS). Each MEC has to discern what they can get ratified and what they cannot get ratified. And I'm sure each has a line in the sand, XJT's being that the new contract cannot have any concessions. The XJT MEC, being reasonable, have been open minded enough, despite the pilot group, to look into ALL PBS systems, not just ASA's. In their opinion, the ASA PBS would be a concession to XJT (not ASA). And they concluded that IF they were to go with PBS, it would only be smartpref because that is the only system which "could" be made to at least maintain the same QOL.

Why should the company allow open time? Why should we have a system with globalization? Because both the pilots and the company want what they want. The XJT side would need open time (among other items) to be negotiated in order to at least maintain their current QOL (not take a concession) and the company wants globalization to make the lines more efficient. I gave two ideas as to how to mitigate the problem. What it comes down to, is the JNC going to be able to negotiate something from the company that will pass both MECs and the combined pilot group. XJT having larger numbers are going to have to be appeased, especially if they decide to go with PBS. If smartpref is the vehicle to do that, then I suspect that is what they'll go with.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Wow, great argument (rolleyes). What part of the word "exploring" means "being imposed"? How does the term "work together" translates into "declare war"?

Simple...Your side realized that your line bidding wouldn't survive....Instead of embracing a PBS system that works and is really the envy of every other PBS carrier out there, your side stomped it's feet and said if we can't get our way, then you can't either...So they came up with a PBS system that uses globalization and isn't in use by anyone....That is war...and it isn't being taken well on our side.

I don't think you fully understand the ASA pilot group...We have taken on management, we have taken on mainline MECs...and we have sued ALPA national....Unlike you, we have never voted for concessions. We aren't going to have a failing airline impose it's wants on us....You can stomp your feet all you want...We simply don't care....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Ok, another thing that plays into the mix of this debate is that each pilot group comes from a known QOL thats dependent on each's contract. With that said, it's not hard to understand that IF the XJT side would go with PBS, the MECs would have to negotiate language to make it AT LEAST as good as current QOL, if not substantially better for just going through the pain of changing something that universally is liked by the pilots (our line bidding system and work rules and your PBS). Each MEC has to discern what they can get ratified and what they cannot get ratified. And I'm sure each has a line in the sand, XJT's being that the new contract cannot have any concessions. The XJT MEC, being reasonable, have been open minded enough, despite the pilot group, to look into ALL PBS systems, not just ASA's. In their opinion, the ASA PBS would be a concession to XJT (not ASA). And they concluded that IF they were to go with PBS, it would only be smartpref because that is the only system which "could" be made to at least maintain the same QOL.

Why should the company allow open time? Why should we have a system with globalization? Because both the pilots and the company want what they want. The XJT side would need open time (among other items) to be negotiated in order to at least maintain their current QOL (not take a concession) and the company wants globalization to make the lines more efficient. I gave two ideas as to how to mitigate the problem. What it comes down to, is the JNC going to be able to negotiate something from the company that will pass both MECs and the combined pilot group. XJT having larger numbers are going to have to be appeased, especially if they decide to go with PBS. If smartpref is the vehicle to do that, then I suspect that is what they'll go with.

This is exactly why this merger isn't going to work and we need to stay separate. The ASA pilots will never support a globalized PBS system.....We are getting tired of the "we are bigger so that is the way it's going to be" attitude from you. We bought you and you were failing. We are the surviving carrier.

The only solution to this standoff is to petition the NMB for separate pilot groups and separate PWAs. We will not allow you to ram your views of "fair" down our throats...

 

[Nevets]

This is exactly why this merger isn't going to work and we need to stay separate. The ASA pilots will never support a globalized PBS system.....We are getting tired of the "we are bigger so that is the way it's going to be" attitude from you. We bought you and you were failing. We are the surviving carrier.

The only solution to this standoff is to petition the NMB for separate pilot groups and separate PWAs. We will not allow you to ram your views of "fair" down our throats...

What I'm trying to say is that both MECs have to deal with reality of what can and can't be ratified. The number comparison is just fact. The XJT side will have to be appeased more than the ASA side, especially since XJT has the better contract and we will not want to take a further concession. It wasn't meant as "we are bigger so we get what we want."

I don't know why any of this is a surprise to you. I told you in another thread that this is what would probably happen (speaking of smartpref). It's unfolding as predicted.

Anyway, I already mentioned two things that could mitigate globalization. But even if we do end up with globalization, what's wrong with that to make more efficient use of crews and stay cost competitive? After, it's you who always says that we have to play the game now that we don't have brand scope. Maybe this is just part of that? You should embrace it as a way of staying in business!

All kidding aside, the XJT side is going ahead with smartpref for relief/reserve lines. If it works, the company and the XJT MEC may pursue it. If it doesn't, I'm sure they will try to scrap it. In the end, it may take a change in the negotiating landscape to get a JCBA. That may take a long time. Which seems fine for everyone except management.

 

[79%N1]

Problem.....management now want this done yesterday! While I'm certain that is never going to happen, I'm as certain that no matter what finally is agreed upon, it can't be cheaper that the Skywest side, Pinnacle, GoJets, Mesa, PSA or CHQ in the bidding for an RFP. In that regard, I guess it doesn't matter how longit takes.

 

[ASADriver]

Show me where I correlated the two? Quote the post. I was talking about the ability to improve the junior line holders schedule (that can happen under BOTH line bid or PBS) with the trips that drop into open time due to conflict under the line bid system. It can be done under line bid, with PBS elimination of open time, that's not an option.

Show me were I said PBS creates conflict, quote the post where I said it does.

Line bidding isn't going to happen. Now, using PBS, how are you going to improve junior line holders line? Where is the open time going to come from to do that?