XJT buying Horizon? (from XJT board)

[Ben Franklin]

I saw this on the XJT only message boards, any one else hear anything about this?

Of course, I am not the one that posted it over there, I just saw it:

sincerely,

B. Franklin



Xjt Buying Horizon?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

40% stock 60% cash

to avoid a spinoff they are going to sell directly to XJT holdings and in return sign a capacity purchase agreement with Alaska Airlines.

Sources in the N/Pacific Region say this will happen in Spring/ early summer of 04', after XJT pays debt to Cal.

Alaska is rumored to be raising cash in order to expand network throught midwest and eastern US.




Did anyone else here this rumor.

 

[qxpilot]

Who is XJT? Haven't heard this one yet. Can't really see the Airgroup doing this.

 

[Ben Franklin]

XJT = ExpressJet Holdings, Incorporated.

They fly as Continental Express out of IAH, CLE and EWR


Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[BLWME]

It would never happen,


EVER

 

[BLWME]

okay it might, but look at the route structure.

It totally overlaps XJT, thus creating a dual system within a system, no one would ever do that.

 

[T-Gates]

How does Horizon overlap XJet?

 

[FSB99]

How does Horizon overlap XJet?

my question, as well..

horizon is alaska's affiliate, right? northwest u.s., down california?
i don't see much overlap.

anyway, regardless of the truth or not, still a fun rumor!

 

[dkwid]

It seems highly unlikely. What would ExpressJet want with a west coast system? Continental hardly flies on the west coast. Alaska would lose big in Seatte if Express Jet were to take the planes elsewhere, not to mention Horizon has a profitable route strucure in place already which the Alaska Air Group would be better off keeping rather than getting a little cash for. The Air Group is already pretty well set for cash.

This is just rash speculation...but....there has been a LOT of talk around Horizon about a fee based agreement with NW flying some Dash 400. It is sounding fairly certain that Horizon will be getting a dozen new 400's in the near future....SO...Perhaps Continental is actually the custumer that wants Horizon to operate these 400's. Just a wild guess. I really see no logic in the express jet buying Horizon...but who knows...could happen. AND...there is rumors of some "BIG" announcement coming from the Air Group sometime soon.

We will see.

 

[ATRCA]

I see a staple job coming!!!




Just kidding, just startin Shnit!

 

[mckpickle]

I see no logic other than we are soon going to have a bit too much cash on hand. If SKywest doesn't buy us first then we would need to make a purchase or risk being bought out by our own money.

So to perpetuate the rumor. What is the seniority list at Horizon. Average, most senior, ect. What type of planes. YOu guys are ALPA right? Thanks

 

[dkwid]

We are Teamsters. And seniority wise....incredibly senior. We have 700 pilots. 18 CRJ 700, 17 Dash 8 400's, 28 Dash 8 200's.

Average (this is really true) years for RJ captain is 17 years. Now this number has come down a bit just recently with the opening of our base in Denver.

Just for fun. Didn't Express Jet just get rid of all their Turboprops and hence the name Express Jet? In the highly unlikely event this rumor is true, would they change the name again?

 

[mckpickle]

OHHHH teamsters.........sorry. 17 years, crap! As far as name change, who knows. I'll believe this when I have a Dash Type.

 

[Heavy Set]

It is obvious that XJT would want to diversify its interests... It's a public company (meaning it can use its stock in an acquisition) and it probably wants to diversify beyond Continental - it might not want to put all of its eggs in one basket... It would follow the MESA formula and spread out its interests. Makes sense to me. Who knows if it will ever happen...

Just my $0.02

 

[storminpilot]

How about XJT wants to get in the door with other airlines by being able to offer a EMB or CRJ product, just like Mesa?

Buying Horizon allows it to go to any airline and offer a buffet of products for feed (EMB135, EMB145, EMB145LR, CRJ200, CRJ700, CRJ900 or Dash 8-100, Dash 8-200, Dash 8-300, Dash 8-400). Now I know Horizon doesn't operate all the previous aircraft but a few 3 day difference courses and you are on your way.

Consolidation is coming in the regionals. Get ready the pieces are moving.

 

[Ben Franklin]

Consolidation is coming in the regionals. Get ready the pieces are moving.

I agree.

But if XJT makes a move on Horizon, what would that mean for Comair's expansion into the great Northwest?

Wouldn't Comair make a defensive bid for Horizon?

It's all very interesting.

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[dkwid]

In my humble opinion the question is more why would the Alaska Air Group sell Horizon.

They are profitable. The Alaska Air Group has ample cash on hand and has no desire to pay fee for departure like many other majors do. Currently Alaska and Horizon do a decent job of harmonizing aircraft utilization on the proper routes. Selling off Horizon would end this coopoeration unless Alaska wants to pay a fee basis and as I said that sounds like a losing scenerio for Alaska.

Comair, by the way, is not fighting its way into the NW. They are replacing one narrow body round trip per day between SLC and SEA. For a significant REDUCTION in available seats for Delta. Don't look for growth here. Delta requires no feed anywhere in the NW. They are merely looking to shed some losses.

The more you consider the complexity and cost of XJT incorporating Horizon it seems like an insane idea. I have no idea how XJT's contract reads on mergers and acquisitons but Horizons is rather specific and mixing together so many fleet types imagine the skyrocketing costs of training. It's funny to me to hear people on this board mentioning MESA as the carier to imagine. They are totally outclassed and outperformed financially by the likes of Skywest, Comair, XJT, etc. all of whom have very simple fleet types. How can we possible say that offering a diverse fleet of aircraft is a bnus in this age where low cost is EVERYTHING.

So, on another note if XJT holdings wants to operate Horizon airlines as an independant carier as the Alaska Air Group currnently does....I could see that happening.

 

[mckpickle]

So, on another note if XJT holdings wants to operate Horizon airlines as an independant carier as the Alaska Air Group currnently does....I could see that happening.

I agree. I have no idea why XJT would want Horizon OR why ALaska would sell. As far as it being and independant operation however, we would never allow that to happen. To much a chance of whipsaw.

 

[dkwid]

speaking of whipsawing............How is your negotiations going? i keep expecting a TA, seems like for quite some time now. Any word?

 

[mckpickle]

Things are moving.....slowly. 1 year 4 months since our C97 was up. I'm affraid waiting much longer will mean more airlines will sign crappy contracts thus lowering everything for us. I wouldn't expect a TA anytime in the next 3-4 months. Course my opinion and a $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee.

 

[Ben Franklin]

Course my opinion and a $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee.

your opinion plus 5 bucks will get you a Starbucks coffee!

Better get used to Starbucks if XJT buys Horizon!

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[Otto Coarsen]

I sure hope that XJet raises the bar like some of their pilots are claiming they are going to do, i'd love to get on with them eventually.

Ok, I'll bite.......................again..........

Dude you can't be serious can you? Raising the bar? You? Wanting the Bar raised? Please please please slap this man over the head with a trout.... My god man, how can you possibly not realize how ludicrous this sounds coming from someone currently paying to fly a BE1900.....

 

[flynryan15]

After theguat disapearing

After THEGUAT disapearing this just seems to good to be true. I think when this is all said and done this guy is going to be slapped over the head with something bigger then a trout.

 

[surplus1]

I sure hope that XJet raises the bar like some of their pilots are claiming they are going to do, i'd love to get on with them eventually.

TabExpress,

Just curious, where did you get the avatar? I haven't seen pilots wearing hats in the cockpit since Tyrone Power starred in 12 O'clock High.

Don't worry about XJT "raising the bar", alpa has just done them the favor of an agreement (at USAirways) to fly 76-seats jets for less than XJT already gets in their '97 contract. They are about to learn how the "resources" the joined alpa to get are being effectively used ..... against them.

Horizon guys,

Pray hard that this is just a rumor. If it isn't you will lose your contract and wind up with your people flying the CRJ700 for the $58/hr that the U pilots have agreed to accept. And yes, that includes your 17-yr seniority people. You will also get to experience the joys of being a regional pilot with a labor union, alpa, that works against him instead of for him.

Good luck.

 

[erj-145mech]

TabExpress,

Just curious, where did you get the avatar? I haven't seen pilots wearing hats in the cockpit since Tyrone Power starred in 12 O'clock High.



Good luck.

What version of 12 O'Clock High did you see? I remember Gregory Peck.

 

[surplus1]

OK, maybe it was Gregory Peck, the point was the hats, not the movie mogul. I've just never seen any airline pilots wearing those lid covers in a cockpit, so I wonder why we keep putting that stuff in pics.

It's not really important, I was just curious.

 

[scotts]

...an agreement (at USAirways) to fly 76-seats jets for less than XJT already gets in their '97 contract.


Pray hard that this is just a rumor. If it isn't you will lose your contract and wind up with your people flying the CRJ700 for the $58/hr that the U pilots have agreed to accept. And yes, that includes your 17-yr seniority people.

Surplus1,

XJT doesn't have a rate for 76 seat jets. 1st year pay for a 50 seat jet CA is $51.60.

$58 is their 1st year rate...

After everything I've heard and read about US Airways and their impending demise, It's hard for me to blame them for accepting this rate for a 76 seat airplane in the process of establishing a new contract at a new airline with new equipment. Does it help us? Of course not. But thankfully I don't have to walk a mile in their shoes. What other provisions are in this contract? Are there other elements that are attractive and raise the bar for us? I prefer not to pass judgement until seeing the entire agreement.

Take a deep breath, man! Step back from the pipe and enjoy the contract that you have.

Cheers,

scotts

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

XJT doesn't have a rate for 76 seat jets. 1st year pay for a 50 seat jet CA is $51.60.

$58 is their 1st year rate...

Thanks Scotts, I know that you don't have any jets with more than 50 seats. I also know that their 1st year rate is $58. I made a mistake and typed 76 when I meant to type 86 (the EMB-175 capacity).

Since they will only have 1st year captain rates that means they have also given up their longevity at U to work in a division of U called MDA. So, they will all work for the starting wage.

Now, suppose you have to match your highest 50-seat rate to their highest 86-seat rate ..... where do you think that will put your new 1st year rate? You don't think that can happen? Just watch how this shakes out (assuming U survives).

After everything I've heard and read about US Airways and their impending demise, It's hard for me to blame them for accepting this rate for a 76 seat airplane in the process of establishing a new contract at a new airline with new equipment. Does it help us? Of course not. But thankfully I don't have to walk a mile in their shoes. What other provisions are in this contract? Are there other elements that are attractive and raise the bar for us? I prefer not to pass judgement until seeing the entire agreement.

Yes it's a new airplane. Does that mean if your company buys a new airplane with 86 seats you'll be willing to fly it for the same as you fly your 50-seat airplane? It's not really a new airline, that's just a gimmik. MDA is a division of U, or that's what they say, and it will be flown by all U pilots.

If they survive and get the EMB-190, we will see what you think about their new airline rate, when Bethune's successor decides to replace all of CAL's 737's with 190's and match U's $63 dollar scale.

What else is in their contract? They have agreed to operate under the terms of the Eagle contract, so get a copy of that and you'll have it. Maybe you can get your negotiators to get you everything that Eagle has, then we'll see what you think of what they have done. Will that "raise the bar" for you? I hope so, 'cause that's what you're likely to get. Since "mainline" pilots are willing to work for that, why shouldn't regional pilots work for less? Your airplane is smaller and you're not as important.

Don't pass judgement, just be happy that one day you'll be able to move up to that newly desirable mainline job when they start hiring again. DW's been trying to get those RJs at a mainline for a long time, so he should be happier than a pig in s***.

Take a deep breath, man! Step back from the pipe and enjoy the contract that you have.

You know what, I'd be happy to enjoy the contract that I have. The problem is my chances of being able to keep it have just been trashed, by my own union.

Thanks for the advice, but I've already taken so many deep breaths that I'm hyperventiating. Face it friend, a turd is a turd no matter what you call it and this one stinks to high heaven.

Good luck with your negotiations. I'm sure this will help you all to achieve your wildest dreams.