XC logging

[mattpilot]

I got a question about logging XC time in Helicopters.

We are all aware of the FAR that says XC is any type of flying that involves a point of landing other than the departure airport. No distance specified.

Now i am not talking about time required for a certificate or rating. I am talking about logging XC time that can be used towards meeting 135 requirements.

When i fly airplanes, i log XC when i go to an airport that is only 20nm away. When i fly helicopters, on almost every flight i have to go to an airport about 6nm away to get fuel. The instructor insists on me not logging it as XC, because we go there so often and its not *that* far away. I respect his wish because his signature is next to the logbook entry.

But how kosher is it for me to log it as XC time when i'm flying on my own ticket?

Do you guys log such time as XC? Have you logged such time? Why or why not?

What about landing off-airport that is only, say, 3 miles away... would you log that as XC?

 

[Pilot_Ryan]

You say: "Now i am not talking about time required for a certificate or rating. I am talking about logging XC time that can be used towards meeting 135 requirements." It's important that you understand that, under part 91, you can log Martian Cross-country time in your logbook, as long as you're not using it towards a certificate or rating. You can also log time in fantasy airplanes/helicopters, log time daydreaming, and even your sexual fantasies... but they're worthless, and only exist as scrawl on a piece of paper. So, that being said, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. I am unsure about your reference to 135. I don't see any correlation to your activities flying rotorcraft under part 91 to part 135. My assumption is that you're trying to find a way to log x/c time for the purpose of sending out resumes. It's safe to say that employers will consider only cross-country time which adheres to the 61.1(b)(3) definition:

(3) Cross-country time means—

(snipped)

(v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under §61.101(c), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

This doesn't mean that you have to fly at least 25nm away from the original point of departure before landing; it simply means that, no matter how many takeoffs and landings you make during the flight, at least one landing must be more than 25nm away from your original point of departure.

If you're trying to string many flights over many days into "one" flight, it won't work, especially if you're leaving and arriving to your "original point of departure" multiple times. In short, no, there's not much point in logging a 6nm flight as x/c, because it's not recognized by the FAA or the industry as such for any purpose.

 

[mattpilot]

The difference in 61 and 135 logging is that 135 has no distance requirement.

Example: 135.243 requires you to have 100 hours of XC (any, not part 61 type) to be PIC of a VFR operation. Or 500 hours of XC to be PIC of a IFR operation.

You will meet those minimums a lot quicker if you log any XC time (in a seperate column, of course) that involves a landing at a location other than the departure airport, regardless of distance.

The sooner you meet those requirements the sooner you can get a different job. Talking to some CFI's here who've moved on, said that employers have no problem accepting XC time that is not at least 50nm/25nm away. Do you know how long it takes to build the required XC time if you only log XC time in excess of 50nm (for airplanes)? A very long time!

The question was/is, is it kosher (not talking about legal) to log XC time (again, not part 61) that involves a flight to another airport that is only 6nm away? And do you guys/have you guys done it?

 

[BLUE_MAX]

Log it anyway you wish, just have the 500 hours of Part 61.1(b)(3)(iii) defined cross-country time (25 nm) when you apply for your ATP. After that no one will really care about your cross-country time.
If you look at the requirements to fly 135 IFR, and the requirements to apply for the ATP they are the same; 500 hours X-C, 100 hours night, 75 hours instrument.
Coincidence? I doubt it.

I have never listed cross-country time on a resume and have never been asked by an employer how much I have. But, I was asked by the examiner before taking my ATP ride.

Good luck!

 

[BLUE_MAX]

I guess I should mention that after your ATP requirements are met (a landing point 25 miles), any landing away from point of departure is considered X-C. 61.1 (b)(3)(i)(c)
At this point in your career, I would fly the 25 miles.

Good luck!

 

[nosehair]

I am talking about logging XC time that can be used towards meeting 135 requirements.

When i fly airplanes, i log XC when i go to an airport that is only 20nm away. When i fly helicopters, on almost every flight i have to go to an airport about 6nm away to get fuel. The instructor insists on me not logging it as XC, because we go there so often and its not *that* far away. I respect his wish because his signature is next to the logbook entry.

But how kosher is it for me to log it as XC time when i'm flying on my own ticket?

Do you guys log such time as XC? Have you logged such time? Why or why not?

What about landing off-airport that is only, say, 3 miles away... would you log that as XC?

Part 61.1(b)(3) Cross-country time means-
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic nav aids, or other nav systems to navigate to the landing point.

Yes, it does not have to be an airport and it does not have to have any distance, other than enough distance to require some form of navigation to get there. And lots of pilots I know keep a seperate column for the "135" x/c hours.
True, employers don't usually care about x/c time, but it is a qualification for 135 PIC and it may effect insurance requirements.