x/c time revisited

[Vavso]

In regard to a job application what would you list as X/C time . I have been logging flights of over 50 NM from each point of departure to landing in my log book. ? thanks Vavso

 

[Bluto]

Any time you take off from one airport and land at another it is cross-country.

You can count that time towards the requirements of the private, commercial, and instrument only if those airports were more than 50 nm apart.

If you navigate to a point 50nm away from an airport (whether you land, or not), you can count that time towards the cross-country requirements for the ATP.

For your resume, logbook totals, and to meet the requirements of Part 135, "airport to airport" cross country is any time you take off from one airport and land at another. Check parts 61.31 and 61.1 for details.

 

[A Squared]

You might take a look at the definition of Cross country in part 61.1(b) If it's a job application, I would use the definition in 61.1(b)(3)(i), all the other definitions are applcable to experience requirements for specific ratings.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Bluto hit the nail square on the head.......the 50nm only counts for certification. Other than that, it's anytime that you depart and land somewhere else....even if it's 5 nm away for lunch.

 

[A Squared]

Just to clarify, I wasn't contradicting Bluto, we posted at the same time it seems, his answer is exactly what you would find in the reg I referenced

 

[bobbysamd]

X-C time

You can count only those flights of 50 nm or more before your Commercial certification for that time to count as cross-country. Any flight from Point A to Point B after Commercial certification counts as cross-country. In other words, don't contradict your logbook on a job app or you might be shown the door at your interview.

Which brings up a question about counting cross-country time if you fly for CAP. I would use some judgment, but if I, as a Commercial pilot, flew a reasonable distance to a grid, conducted a grid search, and returned from where I took off I would count that time as cross-country. As a Private pilot hoping for Commercial and a career I would use the 50 nm criterion.

Hope that helps some more.

 

[Vavso]

Need Guidance

I have about 400 hours total time but have only been logging trips of over 50 nm in my logbook should I go back and correct those figures ( which would make my log book look totally messy) or should I start now logging the X/C time as you stated Thanks !!!

 

[bobbysamd]

Correcting logbook for X-C

I think what I would do is henceforth be conservative and use the criteria above to count your cross-country time and not correct your logbook. All of a sudden adding time that was not there before will look hinky and, worse, perhaps draw unwarranted attention to your logbook.

 

[Vavso]

Is a messy logbook looked down upon?

My very first logbook is a mess although very accurate.. As I gain more flight experience I am being more concientious with its neatness Unfortunately up until now I have a large # of crossouts due to math errors and such. Does having a first logbook like such reflect poorly on someone looking for a flying job ( any Flying job ) thanks Vavso

 

[Long Time Gone]

How is it worded????????
The first impression is usually a lasting impression.

Just keep it neat now and don't sweat it.

 

[hydroflyer]

I had a couple of spare colums in my logbook and chose to call one "135 X/C." It is where I log the point-to-point cross-country. The lableling of "135 X/C" is only in reference to where I first heard about counting the point-to-point time towards a total cross-country time and is not meant to be a total of all Part 135 flying. The column labled cross-country is still used only for 50nm or more legs. This keeps consistency and allows me to differentiate. And since it is my logbook, there is nothing wrong with labeling a column "135" even though a large number of those flights weren't part 135. You can label a column how you want and keep track of additional time how you want, the only issues will be if you try to apply the time to a certificate, rating or job app. If someone asks me about the column in my logbook, I will just give the honest answer of it being my own reference to the point-to-point cross-country and not try to pass it all off as 135 time. It just seems to be easier to keep track of the two when they are in separate columns. Just a thought.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: Correcting logbook for X-C

I think what I would do is henceforth be conservative and use the criteria above to count your cross-country time and not correct your logbook. All of a sudden adding time that was not there before will look hinky and, worse, perhaps draw unwarranted attention to your logbook.

Gotta go with Bobby on this. ("hinky"?)

True, you could have logged every flight where you landed at another airport as cross country from day one (so long as you totalled the right ones for your certificate requirements or ran separate columns).

But think about it. Except for being able to say, "I have XX hours of cross country time" what is the real value of those flights to airports 10 NM away, or for that matter, the 25 flights you took to the exact same airport that was 60 NM away flying the exact same route over an over again? I'm not in the aviation business, but if it's run like any other business, once you get past the minimum time prerequisites (the FAA's and the company's) it'll be the quality of time rather than the quantity that will count.

If you need to report the full quantity for any reason, the answer is to transfer the information into an electronic logbook, without necessarily changing the entries. I've only logged the 50+ NM variety, but if I needed it, I could give you a total of all my cross country time at the click of a mouse.

 

[bobbysamd]

Hinky cross-country time

Hinky = funky, out of the norm, attention-getting in a bad way, etc.

Just to amplify and clarify what I wrote above, now that Vavso is a Commercial pilot there is nothing at all the matter with logging a flight from A to B that is less than 50 nm as cross-country. If I were him I would not go back to my pre-Commercial days, total up similar flights from those days, and (1) add each flight that was previously entered into the corresponding box under the cross-country column in my logbook or (2) total them and write them up as a single entry. Either way, the time appears suddenly out of nowhere. That's what I mean by "hinky."

He should just count the time correctly where warranted from now on.

 

[KickSave]

Do I understand this correctly, that for the purposes of the Commercial Pilot Required Experience, the 50 hours of Cross Country needs to be to airports located at least 50 nm away. But once you have your Commercial license, with regards to the 500 hours Cross Country needed for the ATP, you can log every flight that lands at any other airport (even ones 5 or 10 miles away) as cross country time?

Does that seem right? It doesn't to me, but that's what I am gathering from this thread.

/Dave

 

[midlifeflyer]

Do I understand this correctly, that for the purposes of the Commercial Pilot Required Experience, the 50 hours of Cross Country needs to be to airports located at least 50 nm away. But once you have your Commercial license, with regards to the 500 hours Cross Country needed for the ATP, you can log every flight that lands at any other airport (even ones 5 or 10 miles away) as cross country time

Not quite. Here's my FAQ on the subject:

It's all in 61.1. The definition of cross country falls into three groups:

Group 1: General Definition: A cross country flight is one in which you land at another airport that you didn't accidentally bump into. There are no distance requirements.

Group 2: In order to "Count" for Most Certificates or Ratings: Same as the general definition, except at least one of the places where you land has to be 50+ NM from where you started the flight. This applies to the private and commercial certificates, and the instrument rating.

Group 3: In order to "Count" for ATP: Same as for Most Certificates or Ratings, except you don't have to land at the other airport.

So, they're all cross country. The problem is keeping track of them so you can total the ones that "count". Most new pilots tend to log only Group 2 since those are the ones that they will have to total up in the near future. Some set up two columns right away (Group 1 counts for 135 experience purposes). The lack of a landing in Group 3 is a well-deserved tip of the hat to military pilots who will often fly some distance without landing.

 

[Vavso]

Thanks all

I am going to use the column "as flight instructor" for all future cross country times since I am at my particular cert and rating level .I neatly crossed out that heading and "pt. to pt. X/C" hopefully that will be accepted by any prospective employer or Fed thanks Vavso

 

[KeroseneDream]

I wouldn't use the "As Flight Instructor" Column unless you plan on getting a new logbook when you begin instructing (if that's what you plan to do).

As a student I began logging only 50nm airport to airport flights as XC. Now that I am nearing my ATP and exploring 135 opportunities I created a column in the back of the Jepp Professional Logbook month by month experience section for point-to-point Cross-Country. I went back through my training and added up any flights that included another airport.

If I had not done it this way I would need a separate column for 50nm XC. Either way you need to keep track of it.


The regs allow for logging almost anything, but be conservative and consider what most future employers want see when you decide what to log.


Good Luck

 

[KickSave]

Midlife, thanks for clearing that up. When I actually read the definitions, it became obvious. Bascially, you can log as X-C anytime you land somewhere else, but it won't count for a rating unless it was 50 miles away. For the ATP, it still has to be 50 miles away, but you don't have to actually land - such as when I went up to Santa Monica IFR and had to go missed and came back home - that counts toward the ATP.

So then the question is, why would someone log as X-C those times when they went down the street to practice touch and goes? It won't help for a rating of any kind, and it seems a prospective employer would hopefully not be impressed by someone with 1300 hours X-C time, in only 1500 hours total, and they've rarely ever even left the county they live in?

I'll stick to logging only those flights that take me at least 50 NM away from where I started.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So then the question is, why would someone log as X-C those times when they went down the street to practice touch and goes? It won't help for a rating of any kind, and it seems a prospective employer would hopefully not be impressed by someone with 1300 hours X-C time, in only 1500 hours total, and they've rarely ever even left the county they live in?

I suspect primarily because it counts for =technically= meeting 135 requirements. Here's an example.

You're a CFI at an FBO at a small airport. The organization has managed to pick up a small cargo run. Let's make it really small -- the cargo fits in the back of a Cherokee 180! You've been teaching out of the place, so of course, the operator knows and trusts you and is trying to help out her CFIs by getting them some extra work. If the operation contemplates VFR only flights, you need 500 total hours and 100 hours cross country. If IFR also, 1200 total and 500 cross country.

The job is yours. Unfortunately, your 50+ NM hours don't add up. But your "any landing at another airport" does.

 

[Flying Illini]

As a student I began logging only 50nm airport to airport flights as XC. Now that I am nearing my ATP and exploring 135 opportunities I created a column in the back of the Jepp Professional Logbook month by month experience section for point-to-point Cross-Country. I went back through my training and added up any flights that included another airport.

This sounds like the best way to keep track of your point to point time. Would you include your 50nm+ time in that column too (making it a total X/C column)? I'm thinking about using your idea to keep track of pt to pt time but it seems that the point to point time is only important for a 135 job, meaning it won't help you with the ATP rating. Is this correct or to I need to go back and read the regs again?