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WTC lawsuits go forward against UA & AA

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I find it funny that in another thread on this board that everyone advises that this guy should have sought an attorney immediately after he found something wrong.

WrightAvia was right in his above post - if you were screwed in some way that cost you pain and suffering or the loss of a large sum of money, you would get a lawyer also.

Here's the thread: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22447
 
At Oshkosh I sat in on one of the forums where some lawyers talked about 9/11 lawsuits.

One said that it is a no-lose propostion for a 9/11 victum to sue, because if they lose in court against the airlines and the port authority, then they can sue their lawyer for malpractice for not advising them to take the goverment payout and probably collect from the lawyers insurance company.
 
Swass said:
I find it funny that in another thread on this board that everyone advises that this guy should have sought an attorney immediately after he found something wrong.

WrightAvia was right in his above post - if you were screwed in some way that cost you pain and suffering or the loss of a large sum of money, you would get a lawyer also.

Here's the thread: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22447

And the people of the United States are willing to make a very generous 7 figure payment to the 9/11 victums.

That should be enough.
 
JimNtexas said:
And the people of the United States are willing to make a very generous 7 figure payment to the 9/11 victums.

That should be enough.

Affirm!

And yes I will say it with you, TORT REFORM
 
When are the people in this country going to learn that money spent in lawsuits isn't going to help anything or bring anyone back.

Money wont bring the deceased back. However, the only tangable thing that you can deal with in the form of damages after a tragedy such as a an accident or negligent act is money. A person's life is lost and the only form of replacement is the potential net worth of that individual as father, mother or child. It's sad, but true.

Drive over an indigent person in a cross walk and kill them...it might not even cost you the limits of your car insurance. Do the same to a recently graduated med school student and you could be easily be talking millions.

An old party buddy of mine, Bruce Compton, was walking home from the bars one afternoon after drinking. Bruce was basically a worthless person to society, but he was someone's brother and son. He also was a trouble maker that couldn't keep a driver's license or job, to save his life (pun intended). But anyway, Bruce was doing what he thought was best and not drinking and driving, he was walking home from a bar. He was walking along a sidewalk, when a large beer distributer's truck (no pun intended) came to pass under one of those "octoberfest" signs you see draped across a street on cables and it caught the sign by the lower of the cables and it snapped a telephone pole off, striking Bruce dead right where he stood. It was found out later, that the sign's cables had slid down some on the poles.

In the end, the Compton's as a family were offered 200,000 dollars. I do remember in a letter to the editors of the local paper, a sister had protested the settlement. You'd have to have known Bruce...the 200K was a deal.

So now that you suffered through the Bruce Compton story, where does that lead us with the lawsuits of 9/11 and the airlines and Boeing? People are going to sue. They are going to be lead or goaded by lawyers that want to represent them. They are going to have their day in court(since a judge said so). Juries are going to have to deliberate over mountains of testimony and evidence. And in the end, it's the jury that is going to have to decide...was there negligence on the part of the manufacturer of the planes and/or the companies that flew them and how much money should be awarded to the victims, should they find negligence on the part of the defendants, whether we like it or not.

Thanks for not flaming me on the original post I placed in this thread, a few posts back. I was just trying to present an idea of what the attorneys will be looking at in a case like this...not an opinion that the airlines or Boeing was responsible. Now that a judge has decided the victims can sue...that will be left to the courts and a jury. May it never happen again.
 
"Money wont bring the deceased back. However, the only tangable thing that you can deal with in the form of damages after a tragedy such as a an accident or negligent act is money. A person's life is lost and the only form of replacement is the potential net worth of that individual as father, mother or child. It's sad, but true. "

If the potential awards were restricted to the actual economic damages suffered by the families of the victums, there would not be a problem.

The problem is that it only takes one group of 12 idiots manipulated by an evil demagoge to write ten zeros behind a number in order to "punish" UA, AA, and the other defendants.

We don't let juries deal out unlimited punishement against people who deserve punishment (i.e. criminals).

Why should a jury be allowed to award "damages" that cost the jobs of an entire airline who's only "crime" was following the detailed rules laid down for them by the same goverment that now proposes to punish them for following the goverments rules.
 
lionflyer said:
"Remember the towers were built to withstand an impact of the airliner of the day, not the big Boeing."

I'm sure a 707 or a 727 would have brought those towers down just as easily.

The 76 hitting the towers wasn't the problem. It was the fuel it carried. The towers impact design parameters failed to take into account the fuel a 707 (or what have you) would have on board. The fuel ignited the contents of the building like lighter fluid ignites charcoal. Then the contents burned hot, melting th steel, causing the floor joists to fail in the south tower, and the central core to fail in the north tower.

PBS can be very informative.

I too have no sympathy for those suing Boeing et al. How would it be determined that one or more of the 3 hijacked aircraft's crew didn't refuse to open the door, and only gave in to the demands of the highjackers after there FA's and passengers started getting slaughtered as they watched from behind the door (no CVR, so no evidence of what REALLY happened)? The 'flimsy door' may have worked just fine.

Hindsight is crystal clear, but the fault for 9-11 lies within the procedures used to deal with highjackings and the security (or lack thereof) procedures used to screen passengers and/or others with access to the aircraft for weapons, both of which were developed within federal guidelines. If there's anyone to sue, it's the federal gov., who can't be sued, and has offered to pay out anyway.
 
JimNtexas, I definitely see your point on the regulations in place at the time 9/11 occured. I can remember several times, riding on Northwest and wondering why they left the doors open, leaving the flight crew vulnerable to attack.

You also have to consider the fact that FedEx had a pre 9/11 attack on one of it's flight crews, by an employee pilot. He was armed with a speargun and a hammer and intendeded to crash the plane into corporate headquarters. Also there was another flight of a BAE 146 (I believe) on the west coast, where an employee shot the flight crew and stood watch over the passengers while the plane crashed. Another incident prior to 9/11, was of a man that was shot aboard an airliner in the D.C. area during a hijacking attempt, that was intending to hijack the plane and crash it into the White House. Add on to that, the Cubans hijacking airliners to go home during the 60's and the phenomenon of air rage that was all over the news prior to 9/11 and a case before a jury could prove that there was a need for more secure doors...regardless of the Taliban and their Jihad against Americans.
 
I just wanted to stress the one point I was making. It was not Boeing's or AA's fault that those terrorists were able to get into this country. That was the INS's problem and had they have never gotten into this country we would have maybe delayed or prevented 9/11.
 
I agree, however many of these families have yet to find "closure" and are still hurting in probably more ways than any of us could even imagine. Sometimes when people are hurting they do not reason logically nor are they able to put things into perspective and make the correct choices with regards to their actions. I think a few may have a different opinion if they had lost a father or a mother in these attacks.

I think that the time and place will come when most are able to put closure to this but until then I would expect that many more of these suits are going to continue to pop up.. I think that this goes much deeper than just the "money" factor. No matter how much money one could get it will never be enough to replace a human being that was lost.


c h e e r s

3 5 0
 
I'm getting pretty tired of some of these 9/11 victims familes thinking they are owed anything and everything. Yes, the deaths of their relatives were tragic but isnt death tragic by nature? Whats the difference between their loved ones dying in the twin towers or a wife losing her husband to a drunk driver, or somebodys son drowning in a swimming pool, or husbands wife being raped and beaten by some thug who just convinced the parole board he was rehabilitated? They only thing different is that the 9/11 attacks were such a high profile event that nothing in recent history can top it. So why not capitalize with a lawsuit? Unfortunately, there is nothing positive that can come out of this lawsuit. If they win, a multi-million dollar award will further damage already weak airlines. Even though the firm says it wont, what the hell do they expect the insurance company to do? Just pay it and resume normal business? Of course not, insurance companies aren't out to lose money. Someone has to pick up the tab and it will still be UA, AA, Boeing, and whoever else is listed in the suit. It may cause even more people to lose their jobs and after a job loss for anybody, personal problems just start to snowball. They are not doing it to improve cockpit security (already have it), or to change inflight security procedures (done that too), or to improve baggage screening (government screeners, check bags being screened/tested, etc.). Why don't they come out and push for airline anti-missle systems, or armed pilots, or racial profiling, or something that WILL work and WILL prevent another 9/11 style event? Because they won't get any money. The ONLY reason they are forming this lawsuit is because they see dollar signs and they'll go after anybody even remotely associated with the 9/11 attacks. They are selfish leeches who have such a high opinion of themselves that they think no one could possibly turn down their shot at millions, because after all, they're victims of 9/11. Look at how many last minute rush in filings there were. All trying to catch the gravy train. And of course they do this close to the anniversery for the emotional appeal. They'll ride this gig all the way to the top and milk it for all its worth. They are an insult to their dead relatives and anybody who is a big enough sucker to give them a dime.
And,this judge is the biggest idiot yet for allowing this to proceed. Has he ever had a rational thought pass between his ears? Some of his quotes make him sound ridiculous. ''The . . . defendants controlled who came onto the planes and what was carried aboard" Ok, so the airlines are supposed to be able to identify a hijacker and prevent him from boarding based on what?? Nothing... Oh, and no racial profiling, boys and girls.
He also allows it to proceed because of something that had NEVER happened before, but the airlines still should have known about. Going after the Port Authority for DESIGN of the building????COME ON PEOPLE!! Boeing being included for MAKING AN AIRPLANE??? I can't look at this article any more. These disgusting people involved in this lawsuit get no sympathy from me. To bad the twin towers weren't full of class action lawyers that day. You'd have seen people pushing them back in. Yeah, flame away I don't care. To quote Dennis Leary "LIFE SUCKS GET A HELMET!"
 
It's amazing how self centered and utterly narrow minded pilots are. Almost 10 percent unemployment in this country and you want blame the 9/11 victims for getting in the way of airliners, as the cause of all YOUR woes. You're the selfish ones.
 
Ten percent unemployment? What an amazing statistic coming from someone who calls others narrow minded and uninformed.

Go ahead and justify these lawsuits. Lawsuits like these will do far more damage to this country than terrorists ever could dream of. Our founding fathers would be ashamed.

How dare you suggest that anyone here is blaming the victims of 9/11 for the woes we suffer. You lose all credibility with a statement like that.
 
I think you're really taking that out of context. Besides I don't think they're so concerned about just the airlines going under. They are upset with the idea that people are trying to turn 9/11 into a cash cow. I disagree with dumb lawsuits. I don't see that you can hold United, American, Boeing, or the New York and New Jersey Port Authorities accountable for what happened. If these people want to recoup their losses, then going after those who committed the crime, the terrorists and their networks, would make more sense.
 
O.K. 9.1 percent unemployment. You win, I lose all credibility. Here, I'll repost the article for you to read...
September 11, 2003

David Williams

WASHINGTON - Unemployment queues lengthened to a two-month record last week, data showed Thursday, and a new analysis suggested the "true" U.S. unemployment rate was now 9.1 percent.

The number of first-time jobless benefit claimants in the week ended September 6 rose 3,000 to a two-month record 422,000, following a 22,000-strong leap the previous week, seasonally adjusted Labor Department data showed.

Analysts, who generally consider the jobs market is deteriorating if new claims exceed 400,000 a week, had been hoping for a decline, said BMO Financial Group analyst Paul Ferley.

"But the level of claims has moved even further above 400,000, pointing to another decline in payroll employment for September," he said.

Last week, the government said U.S. employers had unexpectedly slashed 93,000 jobs in August, demolishing hopes of a revival in the crippled jobs market despite signs that an economic recovery is gathering pace.

The unemployment rate was 6.1 percent in August, it said.

But the true unemployment rate was more like 9.1 percent, according to an analysis of the August data by international outplacement agency Challenger, Gray and Christmas, Inc.

"Most only see the government statistic of the unemployed -- 8.9 million in August -- but there are 4.8 million who are not working but want jobs," the agency report said.

"Because they did not actively seek employment during the last month, they were not counted by the government as part of the unemployed labor force," it added.

If those people were counted, the unemployment rate was 9.1 percent in August, Challenger, Gray and Christmas said.

"It is a truer reflection of job market weakness," the agency said.

On their own, the jobless figures appeared to reflect an economy heading to recession, but other data, including fresh trade figures showing rising imports and exports, were telling a different story, Ferley said.

"The labor market remains weak but the economy is still benefitting from very strong productivity gains," he said.

Another sign of the economic recovery appeared in the new trade figures for July, which showed rising exports and imports.

An increased appetite for foreign industrial supplies and consumer goods helped to boost imports by 2.0 billion dollars, or 1.6 percent, to 126.47 billion dollars -- the highest since September 2000.

Foreigners, meanwhile, snapped up U.S. capital goods, industrial supplies, and cars, driving up exports by 1.7 billion dollars, or 2.0 percent, to 86.15 billion dollars.

As a result, however, the U.S. trade gap grew by 0.7 percent from the previous month to 40.32 billion dollars in July, according to the Commerce Department figures.

"The trade deficit widened again, but at least we were able to sell more overseas," said Joel Naroff, president of Naroff Economic Advisors.

"We do need more growth from the rest of the world to help the U.S. economy out, but we seem to be doing okay nonetheless."

U.S. businesses boosted productivity at an annual pace of 6.8 percent in the second quarter, stirring hopes for a rapid recovery but giving few crumbs to job hunters.
 
Sept. 11, catalyst for airlines' crisis
By Ian Campbell
UPI Chief Economics Correspondent
Published 9/7/2003 5:38 PM

(This interview is part of UPI's Special Report on the anniversary of the 2001 terror attacks.)

The terrible events of Sept. 11 are often seen as having destroyed America's airlines. In fact Sept. 11 was no more than a catalyst, bringing forward a crisis that was bound to happen.

The industry's structure, the way it has managed its labor relations and finances and the emergence of fresh competitors were all sources of vulnerability. The restructuring that has now begun is a partial one, incomplete because governments are not moving swiftly enough to allow airlines to be the efficient global businesses they should be.

In recent decades most industries have globalized. Ford and Volkswagen and Toyota compete to sell cars around the globe. Consumers benefit. The airline industry, a vehicle of this process, has stood apart from it. National carriers and reserved national markets have survived, protected by governments.

Then, within national industries, there have been other factors. The major airlines built extensive networks in a prestige industry. In the United States and many other countries, too, the airlines' employees were well paid, unionized and, at times, militant.

Long before Sept. 11, the structures of the airline industry were creaking. According to Marc-David Seidel of the University of British Columbia in Canada, "The large major carriers that existed prior to deregulation (of the U.S. domestic market) in 1978 were founded and built for a regulated environment. They never fully restructured to the new deregulated environment."

Snapping at the heels of the old major airlines have been the newer players such as Southwest and Jet Blue. Operating point to point rather than in a spoke around big city hubs, the new airlines have been able to use their staff more productively and to make profits--something which, even in the 1990s boom years for the U.S. economy, the majors have struggled to do.

The downturn in the U.S. economy since 2000 quickly took its toll on airline finances. According to a report by John Heimlich of the Air Transport Association, U.S. airlines were last in profit in the third quarter of 2000 -- a year before the Sept. 11 tragedy. Since 1999, according to Heimlich's report, airline debt has risen by 75 percent as the airlines struggle to stay afloat.

The U.S. government chose to help them to do so, allocating $15 billion in grants and loan guarantees in the wake of the Sept. 11 attack. This was to help compensate for the closure of airports immediately after the attack, for increased security costs, and for the slow return of passengers to air travel. The Air Transport Association estimates the additional security cost to the industry as a result of Sept. 11 at $4.15 billion. Of this total, $1.5 billion came from a controversial new security tax levied on tickets. The industry's insurance costs rose by 232 percent in 2002 from the previous year to $800 million. Just the need to strengthen cockpit doors as a safety measure cost $310 million.

These burdens were heavy. But given the industry's structural flaws, was it wise for the U.S. government to be so generous in its support? According to Jody Hoffer Gittell of Brandeis University in Massachusetts, the federal money was "corporate welfare rather than being given with requirements." In her view changes in relationships between airlines and their employees were essential. The Bush administration's help for the industry, though understandable given the catastrophic circumstances post-Sept. 11, may only have served to delay necessary change.

Even with the help, the airlines have struggled. The war in Iraq and high oil prices have not helped them. Passenger revenues are running this year below 1995 levels. Layoffs have been essential. According to the Air Transport Association the number of full-time employees has dropped from 623,000 in August 2001 to 521,000 in May 2003. Negotiations between airline management and staff have produced some concessions on the part of the unions.

But the staff of some airlines claim management exploited Sept. 11. According to a forthcoming paper by Hoffer Gittell, "airlines attempted to use clauses in their labor contracts about national emergencies or extraordinary circumstances to avoid making severance payments, including both American Airlines and Northwest Airlines."

For Hoffer Gittell poor relationships between management and unions helps to explain why the airlines are in crisis. She is critical of airlines' readiness to cut jobs in a downturn and of their accounting. Airlines followed Wall Street's advice in indebting themselves and maintaining low cash reserves, she argues. But this has left them with debt problems and an inability to weather a crisis. Only Southwest took a markedly different approach, keeping its debt low and cash reserves high. It has consequently been able to avoid slashing jobs. But of course it is helped too by its size and structure. It is a young competitor, not one of the old majors.

Despite the emergency measures taken by most airlines the sector as a whole "remains mired in its worst crisis ever," according to Reno Bianchi of Citigroup's corporate research team. The bonds of all the major airlines with the exception of Southwest have dropped to junk status. US Airways has passed though bankruptcy proceedings; United has entered them. According to Bianchi, no quick solution is in sight. The airlines "are far from being in a position to pare down the incremental debt incurred over the past two years...massively under-funded pension plans most likely will absorb a significant portion of any eventual excess cash flow." American Airlines and United are his "greatest credit concerns."

What is the route ahead?

Bankruptcies are going to clear some of the excess capacity among the majors. At least one of the big U.S. names is going to disappear. More job losses seem inevitable. Yet this restructuring will be partial and interim.

To improve its service and its competitiveness, cutting both its costs and ticket prices, airlines need to become global players. Seidel points out that "carriers such as Qantas fly from Los Angeles to New York, but are not allowed to pick up new passengers in Los Angeles. If they were allowed to compete, we should see an improvement of service from the U.S. majors."

Crucial, too, is opening up of the lucrative trans-Atlantic routes. Early in June, European Union member states gave the European Commission in Brussels authority to negotiate aviation agreements on their behalf. Previously the United States had negotiated separately with individual European countries. Now there is a chance of more rapid trans-Atlantic regulatory change: the so-called Open Skies.

"Code-sharing" between airlines and alliances such as Sky Team are intimations of the future trans-national mergers that might enable efficiencies of operation and scale in the industry. But many of the U.S. majors are less than keen to see that change, wanting to protect the huge U.S. market from European carriers. And the politicians are moving slowly.

At least a decade on from the Sept. 11 tragedy that threw the industry into crisis, the airlines may still be restructuring painfully. Of that slow-burning crisis, consumers are the victims.

Comments to [email protected]

Copyright © 2001-2003 United Press International
 
It is well known that the airlines had major problems prior to September 11th. Some had problems greater than others. You are hardly shedding any new light on that fact. You don't lose credibility over the statistics that you quote. You lose it by making outrageous comments such as the one you made earlier that no statistic can back up.
 
You lose it by making outrageous comments such as the one you made earlier that no statistic can back up.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but what statistic are you talking about? The door and lack of security of the door?

Keep in mind. I'm not saying that suing for any reason is good, bad or indifferent. I'm just saying that they, the lawyers, will be using the cockpit doors and past history as part of a strategy to sue Boeing, United and American.

Aside from lawsuits and whether or not it is ethical to sue in such a case, I believe that the pre 9/11 events of "air rage", previous hijackings and attempts at hijacking...all pointed toward a need for improved cockpit security with better doors and a change in the regs that required them to be open for take off and landing. And I believe that the lawyers will use these past incidents to bolster their point. Does that mean that I think people should be lining their pockets? I do know that the lawsuits will be allowed by a judge. That's what I do know for sure.

You remember that guy that said "I can fly the plane!!!" that got up several times during a flight and tried to get in the cockpit? He died at the hands of passengers that restrained him. I bet one hundred dollars that as this lawsuit goes into trial, that this "I can fly the plane!!!" case becomes part of the testimony that airlines and the government knew well before 9/11 that the doors to the cockpit may have been too skimpy to prevent people from getting to the pilots and that there was a need for more secure doors, based on "air rage" cases alone.

You guys are getting confused. I am not saying that people and lawyers are this way and that way about money. I'm just telling you what I believe their strategy will be and at the same time telling you I believe the doors should have been better all along. The suing part? Well they got the right to do so or the judge wouldn't have allowed it and I'm not arguing that.

Those doors will be looked at and exploited, the same as this correlation. If I build a paper machine and I don't want to put a guard on a part of the mechanism that consists of two spining sprockets and a chain drive, with the thought that who in their right mind would put a limb or their head in there while it's running and they install that machine in a paper mill and operate it. Then some dumbass happens to be walking by and decides to commit suicide by sticking his arm in that chain drive and sprocket set... guess what? I'm getting sued. Who would have thought that someone would have done that? That's how those lawyers are going to work the door and access to the cockpit.

It's their angle. Not mine. And we'll get to hear about it for at least a year or more in the media, unless the airlines and boeing decide to settle out of court.
 
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