enigma
good ol boy
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,279
shon7, what's up with guys like you and lowcur that refuse to use the quote function of this bbs? It really works well and makes for much less confusion.
In the absence of a CB agreement forcing seniority as the means to award bids and jobs, management is ALWAYS in control of assignments. Good management will take care of their people, bad management might not. I would rather work for management who historically treat their people well, (again the reason I pursue SWA), but that is not always possible. Your argument seems to grant that management will always act as a benevolent dictator. I'd work for a benevolent dictator, but if I have to work for an oppressive dictator, I want the protection of union seniority. It may be the lesser of two evils, but it is the LESSER. If you want to work for an oppresive dictator and trust his good will for you quality of life, go ahead; I prefer to have some protection that I control, even if that protection is based upon something as arbitrary as my date of birth.
Nice try, but there are many methods other than upgrades/pay/schedules for a company, utilizing unionized seniority controlled employees, to encourage and reward employees who go the extra mile for the company and it's customers.
Say what?
shon7, your missing one thing. Management also loves seniority. That's the difference between labor and management. Labor is happy to have it one way, we want seniority to afford us protection and are willing to put up with the negatives to get the protections; management hates seniority because it's a union function, yet they want it because it keeps their training/turnover costs at a reasonable level.
Somewhere in this string, someone alluded to the benefit to a pilot if pilots were able to jump jobs without starting at the bottom. Look at what Delta just went through, management threatened to shut er down because too many pilots were doing just that.
Finally, you management guys need to get your act together. Did you ever hear about removing the plank from your own eye before trying to remove the splinter from my eye?
enigma
btw, I HATE reserve.
"you still have a chance to get rid of bad apples". Nice attitude. For your information, companies can get rid of bad apples any time they dang well please. My employer has fired quite a few pilots over the last few years. Seniority, and the union that supports it, have no ability to prevent an employer from firing an employee "for cause".shon7 said:Enigma and General-
Enigma, you wrote,"most employers recognize rewarding a loyal employee is the right thing to do." Yes I agree. But my point is that employees who stick around for long periods of time are NOT ESSENTIALLY loyal. There are numerous other factors that are influencing their decision. Jet Blue and some European operators have found a good way around this where they sign on pilots with mutually renewable contracts. That way, ever five years you still have a chance to get rid of the bad apples.
You further state, "
I agree with GL. We work in a 24/7/365 environment.Someone must work Christmas and Thanksgiving, someone must work on SuperBowl weekend, etc. We defend seniority lists because they are what prevents management from giving the best schedule, or the upgrades, to the arse-kissers. “The alternative to Seniority is NOT always Management Assigned.
In the absence of a CB agreement forcing seniority as the means to award bids and jobs, management is ALWAYS in control of assignments. Good management will take care of their people, bad management might not. I would rather work for management who historically treat their people well, (again the reason I pursue SWA), but that is not always possible. Your argument seems to grant that management will always act as a benevolent dictator. I'd work for a benevolent dictator, but if I have to work for an oppressive dictator, I want the protection of union seniority. It may be the lesser of two evils, but it is the LESSER. If you want to work for an oppresive dictator and trust his good will for you quality of life, go ahead; I prefer to have some protection that I control, even if that protection is based upon something as arbitrary as my date of birth.
As far as scheduling goes -- airlines like Virgin use a system of rotating seniority for bidding so that nobody hogs the good trips. Upgrades -- here I will agree with your statement that the CHANCE to upgrade should be given out in order of length AND QUALITY of service to the airline. The classic argument to this will be, "how do you measure an intangible like QUALITY?" My response -- one of the ways is that you go back to everyday situations at an airline (delays, catering screwups, irate/unruly customers) and see what initiatives (if any) the pilots and other employee groups took to retain their client base and ensure the success of the airline. LUV is touted as an example where pilots help out with cleaning the aircraft and throwing bags if need be -- those are the kinds of people we should look to retain and promote because people like THEM will ensure the success of the airline. There was a book out a while back called, "Moments of Truth" by the head of SAS. That is exactly what each moment of client contact at an airline or in any service business comes down to.
Nice try, but there are many methods other than upgrades/pay/schedules for a company, utilizing unionized seniority controlled employees, to encourage and reward employees who go the extra mile for the company and it's customers.
Finally, you mention Emirates and Qatar in the context of unfair upgrades. I suggest that you not compare your airline to Emirates and Qatar. There are some things that they do right and many things that they do wrong. You and especially management should concentrate on what they are getting right.
If you re-read my earlier post I wrote,"Find an alternate to the SENIORITY system. Because it gives every startup an advantage in terms of costs (even if they match the existing payscales). “This is the first and foremost reason one needs to look at alternatives. Otherwise, you will have new startups that have a cost advantage EACH TIME. How to you propose to address this problem while retaining the current seniority system? Can't set a minimum wage for pilots at upstarts because that will keep going down (as we will see with Virgin America), can't base it on supply and demand (again wages will continue to spiral downwards). In addition, it won't be long before startups come up with the idea of "rostering." Again, for some this might seem farfetched but ALL it takes is (for a startup) to put in a clause in the employment contract and sign these renewable contracts with each employee for a period of X years. (Won’t do much for morale but then that has never been a management agenda).
Say what?
Management screws up, and now your going to slap around a few unfortunate flight crews because they couldn't just squat and produce food for first class. Man, or woman, you're absolutely unreal!General you write, "As far as leaving for another company and starting over, that pretty much is called "life." It may not happen at the top corporate level, like Airline CEO's moving around to other CEO jobs, but if you are a doctor or lawyer and you stop your practice in a certain town to move to a new one, often you have to start over looking for new patients or clients." Doctors and Lawyers and Managers move all the time but not at the extreme level you are looking at. In those professions a lateral move does not mean that you start from the bottom up EACH TIME. Yes, if you stop your practice and move to a new town it might -- but NOT if you just switch companies/firms/hospitals. With the airlines this is not possible. Because of SENIORITY. You start with a new airline -- you start at the bottom. Even as a Direct Entry Captain -- you start at the very bottom of the payscale (for that position).
Finally, the SUBWAY story. I alluded to that because of this childish portion or your response or maybe your attempt at humor in your first post. But I'm glad you referred to it because International passengers being served MUFFINS on an International Flight isn't going to help DAL in any way. Even if it was just ONE flight -- I can guarantee that the passengers on that flight will take that experience with them and remember it for a long time to come -- IN A BAD WAY. If the brightest idea the employees could come up with was muffins -- that's ok. But from what I heard there was no effort by the FAs and the pilots to go to each passenger and speak with them about the situation and apologize for the same (this is secondhand information so don't quote me on this). A possible attitude could have been "I have put in XX years at this airline and put up with management fiascos 1,2,3,... so I shouldn't have to deal with this..." Again, these would be loyal (read SENIOR) employees (Int. route on DAL -- most probably a senior capt. and senior FA's) but didn't do much to try and retain the clients. But hey, on the bright side, at least someone took the initiative.
shon7, your missing one thing. Management also loves seniority. That's the difference between labor and management. Labor is happy to have it one way, we want seniority to afford us protection and are willing to put up with the negatives to get the protections; management hates seniority because it's a union function, yet they want it because it keeps their training/turnover costs at a reasonable level.
Somewhere in this string, someone alluded to the benefit to a pilot if pilots were able to jump jobs without starting at the bottom. Look at what Delta just went through, management threatened to shut er down because too many pilots were doing just that.
Finally, you management guys need to get your act together. Did you ever hear about removing the plank from your own eye before trying to remove the splinter from my eye?
enigma
btw, I HATE reserve.