Wrong runway at Chicago Midway

[minitour]

Well, honing your IFR skills in a busy airspace in an airplane that's travelling 100 knots slower than the rest of the traffic is inconsiderate and unprofessional. You have a choice of where to practice (play), and purposely choosing hi density airspace is bad SA. Don't be surprised when the controllers in these areas are a little short with you........

So now we want to limit busy (B and C) airports to only those aircraft that are capable of 200+ ? I disagree. As long as the pilot does his/her best in keeping up the best speed practical (when requested by ATC), I fail to see what is wrong. Just because you're in a 737 (or whatever) doesn't make you any better of a pilot than Jim Bob in his 152.

However, I will agree with the coment you made about requesting the full procedure...if it is better/faster/safer for ATC to give me a vector to final, then too bad for me if I wanted to practice a procedure turn or hold...that doesn't mean I can't go in there with a 172 and do it though.

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

So now we want to limit busy (B and C) airports to only those aircraft that are capable of 200+ ? I disagree. As long as the pilot does his/her best in keeping up the best speed practical (when requested by ATC), I fail to see what is wrong. Just because you're in a 737 (or whatever) doesn't make you any better of a pilot than Jim Bob in his 152.

However, I will agree with the coment you made about requesting the full procedure...if it is better/faster/safer for ATC to give me a vector to final, then too bad for me if I wanted to practice a procedure turn or hold...that doesn't mean I can't go in there with a 172 and do it though.

Granted, the guy in the "little airplane" has every right to be there, but I agree with those who have said that if you choose to take advantage of that right you can expect to get jacked around from time to time. The analogy of the elderly driver doing 40 on the interstate is a good one. Most guys will find that their training time is better spent and they will get more accomplished if they avoid those high density areas as much as possible. Besides, there's no particular challenge in flying in high density airspace - vectors are vectors. The fun doesn't begin until you get on the ground and have to taxi somewhere.

One last thought, suppose that you spend some quality time one afternoon during rush hour exercising your rights to be in their airspace. Sure the controllers will do their best to accomodate you, but you will tick them off. Now just suppose that you inadvertantly screw something up - bust an altitude, turn to a wrong heading, whatever. Just how understanding and forgiving do you think they'll be if you've been a pain in their keister all afternoon.

Lead Sled

 

[Tripower455]

So now we want to limit busy (B and C) airports to only those aircraft that are capable of 200+ ? I disagree. As long as the pilot does his/her best in keeping up the best speed practical (when requested by ATC), I fail to see what is wrong.

I guess the question is: Why are you there? If you are practicing ILS approaches in a 172, that is not capable of reaching within 100 knots of the 50 airliners behind you, then it is wrong. If it's not busy, then have at it. The guys in the airliners HAVE to be there........ you have a choice.

Just because you're in a 737 (or whatever) doesn't make you any better of a pilot than Jim Bob in his 152.

True.......

The difference is that JimBob doesn't have to shoot practice approaches at MDW, and I would question his judgement for doing so at busy times. The airline guys have to be there, and in general are pretty good about making the system work.

 

[minitour]

Granted, the guy in the "little airplane" has every right to be there, but I agree with those who have said that if you choose to take advantage of that right you can expect to get jacked around from time to time....

absolutely...I didn't say ATC had to be nice to you...or that anyone had to be nice to you...but you do have the right to be there...

...and granted you do have the choice to be there, and hopefully you're not just going there to be there, but if so that is your choice...like you pointed out, just be ready to suck it up should you screw something up...

-mini

 

[smellthejeta]

absolutely...I didn't say ATC had to be nice to you...or that anyone had to be nice to you...but you do have the right to be there...

...and granted you do have the choice to be there, and hopefully you're not just going there to be there, but if so that is your choice...like you pointed out, just be ready to suck it up should you screw something up...

-mini

Along with rights comes responsibilities. You CAN do anything you **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** well please if you have an acceptable reason for doing so. You do, however, have to be able to explain your actions if so requested (emergencies anyway). The mission of an air traffic controller is the "safe, orderly, and expeditious" flow of traffic. I wouldn't kick a 172 out of congested airspace because he's slow, but you can bet that "the full procedure" during rush hour sure ain't expeditious, and his request would be met with a simple, "unable, expect vectors to final." No need to be mean, and if he wants to talk, we can talk while he practices holds for an hour, or via the telephone when there is free time. There are controllers who welcome the practice approaches for currency -- find them.

 

[Les Paul]

Just heard an Airtran flight who refused to land on 31C at MDW because wind was 110 at 6kt

Controller said 31C was the only runway that was available. Airtran had to go hold over CGT to burn off 7,000lbs of fuel.

Based on what you have reported happened, I will simply make this observation.

Things like this can and will happen when you upgrade First Officers in 24 months. And remember many of these "Captains" were extremely low time (<2500 hrs), and had ZERO PIC turbine time and ZERO jet time when they got hired at that "Airline formerly known as VALUEJET".

Les Paul

 

[wings421]

Based on what you have reported happened, I will simply make this observation.

Things like this can and will happen when you upgrade First Officers in 24 months. And remember many of these "Captains" were extremely low time (<2500 hrs), and had ZERO PIC turbine time and ZERO jet time when they got hired at that "Airline formerly known as VALUEJET".

Les Paul

I'm sure that this had very little to do with it.

 

[Les Paul]

I'm sure that this had very little to do with it.

You must have a degree of difficulty in comprehension. I will help you out by quoting what I said... along with a quick comprehension questionaire.

Here is my statement:

Things like this can and will happen when you upgrade First Officers in 24 months.

Okay... now its quiz time:

Question #1. Where did Uncle Les say ANYTHING about this causing the incident in question?

I believe that I said that things LIKE THIS can and will happen to an Airline that 3 years ago couldn't get pilots willing to even interview... let alone hire.

Les Paul

 

[wings421]

You are certainly implying that these are the reasons. You wouldn't have posted them if you weren't.

You're saying that there is a chance that the captain was a low timer and that this was the reason he couldn't land. I'm saying that it wouldn't matter what experience he/she had, the numbers wouldn't crunch.

As far as an "incident", there was none, they just didn't land. Your "statement" would have been relevent if they had attempted landing and ran off of the runway. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Granted, the guy in the "little airplane" has every right to be there, but I agree with those who have said that if you choose to take advantage of that right you can expect to get jacked around from time to time. The analogy of the elderly driver doing 40 on the interstate is a good one. Most guys will find that their training time is better spent and they will get more accomplished if they avoid those high density areas as much as possible. Besides, there's no particular challenge in flying in high density airspace - vectors are vectors. The fun doesn't begin until you get on the ground and have to taxi somewhere.

One last thought, suppose that you spend some quality time one afternoon during rush hour exercising your rights to be in their airspace. Sure the controllers will do their best to accomodate you, but you will tick them off. Now just suppose that you inadvertantly screw something up - bust an altitude, turn to a wrong heading, whatever. Just how understanding and forgiving do you think they'll be if you've been a pain in their keister all afternoon.

I've noticed that the Flibmeister has become silent on this thread. Do you know why controllers call these little guys "FLIB's"?

Fcuking
Little
Itinerant
Bastards

 

[Flibmeister]

Fcuking
Little
Itinerant
Bastards

That's one view, admitedly held by an uncomfortably large segment of the controller population.


However, some of us prefer:

Funny
Little
Itty
Bittys


The Flibmeister
(who's been a flibdriver for 37 years, but was a controller for only 25)