Would you go ?

[GVFlyer]

While I agree that the regualtion requiring oxygen is outdated, the fact of the matter is that it is still there....You cannot pick and choose which rules to follow and which to break.

Fly safe

Noble sentiment...

Conduct a grass roots plebiscite - listen to your radios and see how many crews flying above 41,000 feet have one pilot on the mask. Even when ops specs require it, the requirement is winked at by management.

In my view it would be unsafe to wear a mask for 14 hours, not only from the residual effects of breathing pure O2 for that long, but also because of fatigue. In the GV, if you have a blow-out, the jet does the same thing I would do being a competently trained semi-alert pilot who can don an immediately available quick-don oxygen mask in under the time -of - useful consciousness at 51,000 feet - that is to say if cabin altitude exceeds 8,000 feet with the jet above 40,000 ft., the jet rolls into a left bank for a 90 degree heading change, the autothrottles retard to idle, it lowers the nose, accelerates to MMO/VMO and dives to 15,000 ft, then stabilizes at 250 knots and waits for me to wake-up. If your not in the Hindu Kush Mountains when this occurs, you're probably OK.

 

[Ty Webb]

Enjoyable string, guys, but here's some more food for thought-

1) When you are breathing O2 it is not "pure" O2 unless you have selected 100% or EMER. Normal setting is an O2/cabin air mix.

2) If you had an emergency and had to descend through RVSM airspace, I would think that declaring the emergency should be adequate, but I have not operated in RVSM yet- anyone want to clarify this for me?

3 Diplomatically telling owners or charter customers that what they are proposing does not meet with your personal safety requirments. I have found that it is better with VIP's to present them with choices- ie, "We make the tech stop here or here, which do you prefer?", Rather than, "I'm the PIC and I say we need to stop on the way". They like to feel that they are in control . . . .

3) Lastly, don't let water give you pause, as long as you have done the operational planning and taken into consideration things like wet footprint, and, like someone else mentioned, contingencies like a loss of pressurization that might require a descent to an altitude where your fuel burn would not let let you make an airport.

 

[FLY.80]

It's not just a noble sentiment, these are the rules we MUST live by.

In 135 operations supplemental Oxygen is required anytime a pressurised aircraft is operated above FL350. The feds in the Cleveland area have been ramp checking to see how much Oxygen you have remaining when you land. Here is the

RegSection 135.89:

Pilot requirements: Use of oxygen.
(a) Unpressurized aircraft. Each pilot of an unpressurized aircraft shall use oxygen continuously when flying --

(1) At altitudes above 10,000 feet through 12,000 feet MSL for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration; and

(2) Above 12,000 feet MSL.

(b) Pressurized aircraft. (1) Whenever a pressurized aircraft is operated with the cabin pressure altitude more than 10,000 feet MSL, each pilot shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

(2) Whenever a pressurized aircraft is operated at altitudes above 25,000 feet through 35,000 feet MSL, unless each pilot has an approved quick-donning type oxygen mask --

(i) At least one pilot at the controls shall wear, secured and sealed, an oxygen mask that either supplies oxygen at all times or automatically supplies oxygen whenever the cabin pressure altitude exceeds 12,000 feet MSL; and

(ii) During that flight, each other pilot on flight deck duty shall have an oxygen mask, connected to an oxygen supply, located so as to allow immediate placing of the mask on the pilot's face sealed and secured for use.

(3) Whenever a pressurized aircraft is operated at altitudes above 35,000 feet MSL, at least one pilot at the controls shall wear, secured and sealed, an oxygen mask required by paragraph (b)(2)(i) of this section.

(4) If one pilot leaves a pilot duty station of an aircraft when operating at altitudes above 25,000 feet MSL, the remaining pilot at the controls shall put on and use an approved oxygen mask until the other pilot returns to the pilot duty station of the aircraft.

 

[GVFlyer]

Thanks for quoting Part 135 for us, but

Just curious, are you with the FAA?

 

[FLY.80]

GVFlyer,
No I'm not with the FAA.

I am however pretty fed up with 135 operators pressuring pilots to do things that are not LEGAL. A lot (not all) of 135 operators feel that it is necessary to bend regs in order to get the job done. I don't think the FAA would be as understanding if you were to have an accident because you did something illegal.


That's all....

 

[GVFlyer]

Enjoyable string, guys, but here's some more food for thought-

1) When you are breathing O2 it is not "pure" O2 unless you have selected 100% or EMER. Normal setting is an O2/cabin air mix.

Depends on what you fly. Diluter Demand is OK at low altitudes, but keep in mind that where we are normally flying, between 43,000 ft and 51,000 ft., you need 100% Oxygen Pressure Demand to keep you alive.

It's interesting to note that no one yet has made a passenger mask that will keep anyone alive above 35,000.

Do you know how you certify an airplane for maximum altitude? In most cases, it's the altitude at which should a rapid decompression occur, you can make an emergency descent without putting somebody in the back to sleep before you get to the thick air. You go into a negotiation process with the FAA to determine the maximum size hole you can have in the pressure vessel that will not be exceeded at a frequency greater than 1 in 10 to the 7th power. You then simulate a hole that size in the jet and dive from the altitude you are trying to certify. As you are going down, the cabin is coming up to meet you. At some point the two will meet and the cabin will follow the airplane down.

 

[capnflyright]

It sounds like there maybe some training issues that need to be addressed as well. I would fly the inland route if I hadn't been trained in the use of an HF and Class II navigation. The operator of the lear should have paid for the training for you(if you hadn't received any). If they won't train you to fly in the areas that you are expected to operate in, then do what is safest and let them work out the extra time and money issues.

 

[CitationCapt]

WAT RVSM

2) If you had an emergency and had to descend through RVSM airspace, I would think that declaring the emergency should be adequate, but I have not operated in RVSM yet- anyone want to clarify this for me?

From the RVSM procedures for the Western Atlantic:

6.2 The following general procedures apply to both subsonic and supersonic aircraft and are intended as guidance only. Although all possible contingencies cannot be covered, they provide for cases of inability to maintain assigned level due to:

weather;
aircraft performance;
pressurization failure; and
problems associated with high-level supersonic flight.

6.3 The procedures are applicable primarily when rapid descent and/or turn-back or diversion to an alternate airport is required. The pilot’s judgment shall determine the sequence of actions to be taken, taking into account specific circumstances.

6.4 If an aircraft is unable to continue flight in accordance with its air traffic control clearance, a revised clearance shall, whenever possible, be obtained prior to initiating any action, using a distress or urgency signal as appropriate.

6.5 If prior clearance cannot be obtained, an ATC clearance shall be obtained at the earliest possible time and, until a revised clearance is received, the pilot shall:

a) if possible, deviate away from an organized track or route system;

b) establish communications with and alert nearby aircraft by broadcasting, at suitable intervals: flight identification, flight level, aircraft position, (including the ATS route designator or the track code) and intentions on the frequency in use, as well as on frequency 121.5 MHz (or, as a back-up, the VHF inter-pilot air-to-air frequency 123.45);

c) watch for conflicting traffic both visually and by reference to ACAS (if equipped); and

d) turn on all aircraft exterior lights (commensurate with appropriate operating limitations).

7.0 In-flight Contingency Procedures for Subsonic Aircraft Requiring Rapid Descent, Turn-back or Diversion

Initial action

7.1 If unable to comply with the provisions of paragraph 6.3 to obtain a revised ATC clearance, the aircraft should leave its assigned route or track by turning 90 degrees right or left whenever this is possible. The direction of the turn should be determined by the position of the aircraft relative to any organized route or track system (for example, whether the aircraft is outside, at the edge of, or within the system). Other factors to consider are terrain clearance and the levels allocated to adjacent routes or tracks.

Subsequent action

7.2 AIRCRAFT ABLE TO MAINTAIN LEVEL. An aircraft able to maintain its assigned level should acquire and maintain in either direction a track laterally separated by 30 NM from its assigned route or track and once established on the offset track, climb or descend 500 ft (150 m).

7.3 AIRCRAFT UNABLE TO MAINTAIN LEVEL. An aircraft NOT able to maintain its assigned level should, whenever possible, minimize its rate of descent while turning to acquire and maintain in either direction a track laterally separated by 30 NM from its assigned route or track. For subsequent level flight, a level should be selected which differs by 500 ft (150 m) from those normally used.

7.4 DIVERSION ACROSS THE FLOW OF ADJACENT TRAFFIC. Before commencing a diversion across the flow of adjacent traffic, the aircraft should, while maintaining the 30 NM offset, expedite climb above or descent below levels where the majority of aircraft operate (e.g., to a level above FL 410 or below FL 290) and then maintain a level which differs by 500 ft (150 m) from those normally used. However, if the pilot is unable or unwilling to carry out a major climb or descent, the aircraft should be flown at a level 500 ft above or below levels normally used until a new ATC clearance is obtained.


8.0 Weather Deviation Procedures

General procedures

8.1 The following procedures are intended to provide guidance for deviations around thunderstorms. All possible circumstances cannot be covered. The pilot’s judgment shall ultimately determine the sequence of actions taken and ATC shall render all possible assistance.

8.2 If the aircraft is required to deviate from track to avoid weather and prior clearance cannot be obtained, an air traffic control clearance shall be obtained at the earliest possible time. In the meantime, the aircraft shall follow the procedures detailed in paragraph 8.6 below.

8.3 The pilot shall advise ATC when weather deviation is no longer required, or when a weather deviation has been completed and the aircraft has returned to the centerline of its cleared route.

8.4 Obtaining priority from ATC when weather deviation is required.

8.4.1 When the pilot initiates communications with ATC, rapid response may be obtained by stating "WEATHER DEVIATION REQUIRED" to indicate that priority is desired on the frequency and for ATC response.

8.4.2 The pilot still retains the option of initiating the communications using the urgency call "PAN PAN PAN" to alert all listening parties to a special handling condition which will receive ATC priority for issuance of a clearance or assistance.

8.5 Actions to be taken when controller-pilot communications are established

8.5.1 The pilot notifies ATC and requests clearance to deviate from track, advising, when possible, the extent of the deviation expected.

7.4.2 ATC takes one of the following actions:

1 if there is no conflicting traffic in the horizontal dimension, ATC will issue clearance to deviate from track; or
2 if there is conflicting traffic in the horizontal dimension, ATC separates aircraft by establishing vertical separation; or
3 if there is conflicting traffic in the horizontal dimension and ATC is unable to establish vertical separation, ATC shall:
a) advise the pilot unable to issue clearance for requested deviation;
b) advise pilot of essential traffic; and
c) request pilot’s intentions.

SAMPLE PHRASEOLOGY:
“Unable to clear (requested deviation), traffic is (call sign, position, altitude, direction), advise intentions.”

8.5.3 The pilot will take the following actions:

1. Advise ATC of intentions; and
2. Comply with air traffic control clearance issued; or
3. Execute the procedures detailed in 8.6 below. (ATC will issue essential traffic information to all affected aircraft).
4. If necessary, establish voice communications with ATC to expedite dialogue on the situation

8.6 Actions to be taken if a revised air traffic control clearance cannot be obtained

8.6.1 The pilot shall take the actions listed below under the provision that the pilot may deviate from rules of the air, when it is absolutely necessary in the interests of safety to do so.

7.5.2 If a revised air traffic control clearance cannot be obtained and deviation from track is required to avoid weather, the pilot should take the following actions:

1 if possible, deviate away from an organized track or route system;

2 establish communication with and alert nearby aircraft by broadcasting, at suitable intervals: flight identification, flight level, aircraft position (including the ATS route designator or the track code) and intentions (including the magnitude of the deviation expected) on the frequency in use, as well as on frequency 121.5 MHz (or, as a back-up, the VHF inter-pilot air-to-air frequency 123.45).

3 watch for conflicting traffic both visually and by reference to ACAS (if equipped);

4 turn on all aircraft exterior lights (commensurate with appropriate operating limitations);

5 for deviations of less than 10 NM, aircraft should remain at the level assigned by ATC;

6 for deviations of greater than 10NM, when the aircraft is approximately 10 NM from track, initiate a level change based on the following criteria:

Route center line track Deviations >10 NM Level change
EAST (000-179 magnetic)
LEFT DESCEND 300 ft
RIGHT CLIMB 300 ft

WEST (180-359 magnetic)
RIGHT CLIMB 300 ft
LEFT DESCEND 300 ft



Note: 8.6.2.2 and 8.6.2.3 above call for the pilot to: broadcast aircraft position and pilot’s intentions, identify conflicting traffic and communicate air-to-air with near-by aircraft. If the pilot determines that there is another aircraft at or near the same FL with which his aircraft might conflict, then the pilot is expected to adjust the path of the aircraft, as necessary, to avoid conflict.

7 if contact was not established prior to deviating, continue to attempt to contact ATC to obtain a clearance. If contact was established, continue to keep ATC advised of intentions and obtain essential traffic information.

8 when returning to track, be at its assigned flight level, when the aircraft is within approximately 10 NM of center line.

 

[CL60]

CitationCapt,

Not quite sure what you're asking. Are we assuming an aircraft not properly RNP equipped is overflying RVSM/MNPS airspace and subsequently has to descend through it for whatever reason? If you lived through it, I'm not sure if declaring an emergency would get you off the hook, especially if you caused a conflict. I assumed th operator in question would have to answer some pretty tough questions however, I have to find some data to back that up.

The major issue here is, how will you be able to adequately navigate the NAT system with perhaps only one long range nav that may or may not know exactly where it is and an uncertified altimitetry system? If you interfere with the tracks or otherwise cause mayhem out there you will definitely be a sought after individual by the authorities.

Declaring an emergency is fine however, in a non-radar environment, if you are unable to broadcast your position and correct altitude with absolute certainty, you are placing a great many people at risk. I know of several operators who always fly over the tracks but always and only with properly certificated aircraft and trained pilots.

In my opinion, anyone overflying the tracks without adequate navigational and altitude readout performance, and contingecy planning is asking for trouble and placing others in jeopardy.

Flying the track system is complex enough without having to worry about a stray aircraft flying around in the dark.

Since I always fly within the system, I never researched the overflight problem. I'll get back to you if I find anything solid on the legal issue. I'm sure someone has dealt with this topic before.

 

[CL60]

MASPS

CitationCapt... FYI,

"MASPS," Minimum Aircraft System Performance Specifications, is the MNPS version of RNP. (I errroneously used the incorrect acronym in a prior post).

The North Atlantic MNPS Operations Manual, published on behalf of the North Atlantic System Planning Group by the ICAO, does have provisions for non-RVSM approved and non-MNPS approved aircraft to penetrate and operate within the airspace under a "Special Arrangements" section. Obviously this would have to be taken care of in advance. That is all I can find on it so far...