Witness Sees Third Plane in ACC Shorts WI Mid-Air!

[FN FAL]

It makes sense, especially when you consider what earlier witness on the ground said about an abrupt turn...

Area residents witness crash
By Teresa Stowell of the Daily Times staff


A number of area residents witnessed the cargo plane crash off of Clifford Lane outside of Watertown Sunday afternoon and say they saw a third plane during the incident. Authorities from the Federal Aviation Administration were still conducting the investigation and were unavailable for comment at press time. There has been no official comment as to what caused the crash.

“I did see a third plane,” Charles Schadt, of Watertown, said. “It was a small plane and it was flying underneath these other two bigger planes. Once those two planes hit and the one fell apart I didn't see where the other little plane went. It's my opinion that these other two cargo planes were trying to avoid the smaller plane and that's when they ran into each other.”

Schadt owns an 800 acre farm off of Clifford Lane and while he was outside filling his wood burner he watched the two planes collide and the one crash while the third was flying beneath the other two.

“I glanced up and thought the National Guard was flying through. Then I noticed it wasn't the National Guard and I saw the two planes run together,” Schadt said. “After the two planes hit each other the wing fell off of one of them and 10 seconds later it crashed.”

The crash happened about 1,500 feet east of Schadt's home in one of his plowed fields.

“I saw it hit the ground and it was an instant fireball of explosion,” Schadt said. “Right then I made up my mind that there was no way anybody was alive in there. It wasn't any kind of skidded landing, the plane went down at such a steep angle and it hit so hard that it just wasn't possible.”

Schadt said he didn't notice any sign of malfunction or hear any unusual plane noises before the collision. He said the loud noise came when the plane crashed.

“When it crashed the explosion was very loud and the ground actually shook,” Schadt said. “I've never seen a crash like this before and this is the last one of these I wish to see.”

Schadt said his wife, Janice, called 911 right after it happened and officials were at the scene in 15 minutes.

“My first thought was there's probably four residences in the area that if that plane would have gone down just a little bit this way or that way it could have hit a house,” Schadt said.

Patti and Lewis Tripi live off of West Road and were working on their taxes Sunday afternoon when they heard the planes collide overhead and thought one actually hit their home. Patti said she also believes there was an additional plane involved.

“It was so loud we thought it hit our house. We went outside right after we heard the noise and saw the debris falling and we saw a small four-seater, small engine plane do a U-turn behind our house,” Patti said. “The plane we saw on TV that landed at Juneau was not the plane we saw do a U-turn after the collision.”

Patti said her brother-in-law owns a plane and they often see their neighbor's plane fly in the area.

“It wasn't very unusual for us to hear an airplane fly by our house because our neighbor down the road has an airplane,” Patti said. “But this plane was roaring and was way too loud and then we heard a big boom and saw the plane parts falling from the sky. I distinctly remember seeing a yellow stripe on the plane we saw do the U-turn after the crash behind our house. I can picture it in my mind that there was yellow near the cockpit of the plane. The plane we saw on TV that landed at the Juneau airport was all white and much larger, it was not the same plane.”

Patti said as soon as they saw the plane crash, she and her husband ran down to the site to see if they could help those on board. She said another neighbor they spoke with at the site believed he saw four airplanes.

Federal Aviation Administration officials will be holding a press conference later today at the Dodge County Airport in Juneau.

 

[Av8rPHX]

Sad Creepy stuff man..

 

[FN FAL]

Sad Creepy stuff man..

Yes it is. Not faulting those pilots, but being from out of state, they probably didn't know that area very well...the area between MSN and MKE is like funnel for low flying VFR traffic. You might say that if upper illinois and lower Wisconsin was a pie and you went to cut the pie, that area would be the center of it.

 

[Markm1811]

This crash beggars a question

Presuming that the larger planes had anti collision radar. If 2 targets are identified how would the system tell the pilot to operate. If their radar said to turn for avoidance and a thrid plane entered the area could that casue the planes to retrack and cause this accident.

Just curious.

Midnight Brit.
Telling Pilots what to do 4 nights a week.

 

[wheelsup]

Yes it is. Not faulting those pilots, but being from out of state, they probably didn't know that area very well...

I think ACC's corporate headquarters and MX base is in MKE...someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[FN FAL]

I think ACC's corporate headquarters and MX base is in MKE...someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Then they should have known better, is what you're saying?

 

[DiverDriver]

Then they should have known better, is what you're saying?

No it goes to say that formation flying is dangerous no matter where you are.

 

[FN FAL]

No it goes to say that formation flying is dangerous no matter where you are.

I can dig that, but do you think that the residents of the area between MKE and MSN deserve to be included in that risk?

Wouldn't a reasonbale and prudent person assume, that flying a pair of MOABs in formation at low altitude in a high GA traffic area, posses great risks to people on the ground?

Lake Michigan is only one mile East of the MKE airport, I doubt you'd find much risk of running into a Piper Cub or Warrior out there.

 

[DiverDriver]

Not here to argue minute point over minute point. Point is that formation flying has it's inherent risks no matter where you are. I've done a bit of it in the past. 15 aircraft to be exact. Skyvan (shorts) and 14 Twin Otters. You plan, but no matter what altitude you're at you run a risk. You manage the risk but it's still a risk.

 

[FN FAL]

Not here to argue minute point over minute point. Point is that formation flying has it's inherent risks no matter where you are. I've done a bit of it in the past. 15 aircraft to be exact. Skyvan (shorts) and 14 Twin Otters. You plan, but no matter what altitude you're at you run a risk. You manage the risk but it's still a risk.

So, you would agree that flight following and a remote location with less G.A. traffic, would be a better management of risk.

 

[Publishers]

Remember, we have a surviving crew here..... some insight will surely come as they are interviewed.

 

[XTW]

Presuming that the larger planes had anti collision radar. If 2 targets are identified how would the system tell the pilot to operate. If their radar said to turn for avoidance and a thrid plane entered the area could that casue the planes to retrack and cause this accident.

I gotta get me some of that stuff! Who does installations of this equipment?

 

[414Flyer]

Presuming that the larger planes had anti collision radar. If 2 targets are identified how would the system tell the pilot to operate. If their radar said to turn for avoidance and a thrid plane entered the area could that casue the planes to retrack and cause this accident.

Just curious.

Midnight Brit.
Telling Pilots what to do 4 nights a week.

Do you have any clue of what you are talking about?

Also for the others, just because HQ is in MKE, does not mean the pilots are from there and are familiar with the airspace. Most pilots are not from there.

 

[FN FAL]

Also for the others, just because HQ is in MKE, does not mean the pilots are from there and are familiar with the airspace. Most pilots are not from there.

It's not the Indy 500, but people avoiding overflight of Lake MI and the ORD Class B, inevitably get funneled between MSN and MKE. Even the IFR en route stuff has to make the decision if they want to go over the lake or over RFD.

That area where they were flying is about the only open area in a rectangle between MSN and MKE that doesn't have airport, a drop zone, glider airport, etc, etc.

Any further to the west and you have another drop zone, some smaller satellite airports and MSN class B. Any further east and you get into a whole gaggle of airports all the way up and down the rock river and east to MKE.

To be fair to those guys at ACC, you'd have to be pretty familiar with the area to have known that there's a lot of 2,500 msl and below traffic flying there.

 

[Markm1811]

I think I do know what I am asking if thats the question 414

414,

whats your issue.. I asked a question regarding collision avoidance radar that larger aircraft have... I simply asked that if the 2 larger planes were on a collision avoidance course and a third target aircraft ( the smaller one) came into the warning zone of the avoiding aircraft, then how does the TA system handle it. would it tell one of the planes to turn again possibly causing a collision. Would it ignore the small plane.. just asking..

Do you have a problem ?

Midnight Brit
On ACARS 4 nights a week.

 

[CRJDispatchKid]

Is anyone particularly familiar with this cargo operation or aircraft? Does the Shorts have a CVR and FDR (DFDR)?

 

[FN FAL]

414,

whats your issue.. I asked a question regarding collision avoidance radar that larger aircraft have... I simply asked that if the 2 larger planes were on a collision avoidance course and a third target aircraft ( the smaller one) came into the warning zone of the avoiding aircraft, then how does the TA system handle it. would it tell one of the planes to turn again possibly causing a collision. Would it ignore the small plane.. just asking..

Do you have a problem ?

Midnight Brit
On ACARS 4 nights a week.

Don't sweat it Mark, 414 has some downed bros and he's probably not feeling the best about it right now. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[XTW]

whats your issue.. I asked a question regarding collision avoidance radar that larger aircraft have... I simply asked that if the 2 larger planes were on a collision avoidance course and a third target aircraft ( the smaller one) came into the warning zone of the avoiding aircraft, then how does the TA system handle it. would it tell one of the planes to turn again possibly causing a collision. Would it ignore the small plane.. just asking..
quote]



You are not helping youself with these questions. This belongs in the old "a little bit of knowledge is dangerous" category. Are you a licensed dispatcher or are you a know-nothing reporter trying to put your nose where it doesn't belong?:uzi:


X

 

[DiverDriver]

First off.... it's not "traffic radar". Radar stands for RAdio Detection And Ragning. You don't use radar on board for detecting traffic. We use TCAS which works off the transponders and even that sometimes doesn't see everything. And what system was or was not on these particular aircraft we'll just have to wait and see when the investigation progresses.

For now, we'll have to wait.

 

[SansPlane]

[Markm1811] whats your issue.. I asked a question regarding collision avoidance radar that larger aircraft have... I simply asked that if the 2 larger planes were on a collision avoidance course and a third target aircraft ( the smaller one) came into the warning zone of the avoiding aircraft, then how does the TA system handle it. would it tell one of the planes to turn again possibly causing a collision. Would it ignore the small plane.. just asking..
quote]



You are not helping youself with these questions. This belongs in the old "a little bit of knowledge is dangerous" category. Are you a licensed dispatcher or are you a know-nothing reporter trying to put your nose where it doesn't belong?:uzi:


X

Just how many conspiracy theorists frequent FI? What is wrong with being a reporter & where does a reporter’s nose belong? Correct me if I am wrong, but many of the discussions on this board hinge on the latest news? Duh! Do you really think a reporter is going to wait for input from one of the “EXPERTS” on this board to file a story? Continue watching for the men in black suits and them UFO’s that the government is using to spy on you. Did you hear that? Look around, they are watching you.