Will Pinnacle lose block hours to Compass?

[WMUSIGPI]

I will agree with you that our 50 seat airplanes are on some routes they shouldn't be on. But with this RFP, there is the potential for us to get some 70 seat airplanes as well. That is why i think we will be alright. If things go wrong, and we do lose a bunch of airplanes, i will get furloughed before you guys, and if that happens, I will admit that i was wrong, but I think we are ok. I was sceptical at first, but not anymore.

So you are going to be furloughed retroactive to Jan or Feb?

 

[ataopsdave]

So you are going to be furloughed retroactive to Jan or Feb?

I think you misunderstood him...he is saying that he will be one of the first to be furloughed at 9E since he is very junior...not talking about XJ

 

[QCappy]

Hi!

Currently, the best US regional by far is Horizon. I tried, but no cigar.

Cliff
YIP

Thanks Cliff! I think so too!

 

[Svetti Grundel]

You honestly think NWA would put all/most its RJ eggs in one basketcase of an airline called Pinnacle?

No one is saying that NWA is going to give all the flying to Pinnacle. I can't imagine, however, that NWA will want to put all it's "eggs" into the Compass basket either. Compass barely exists right now; there will be growing pains. Remember the '04 Christmas disaster at 9E? Any time an airline is rapidly expanded, those sorts of thing will happen. If anything, this fact makes a strong case for why 9E (or, to be fair, another regional) will get a good portion of the 76 seat flying. However, other regionals will have a harder time winning the flying because of the additional startup capital involved in creating the infrastructure to fly for another carrier. That's not to say Mesataqua-West couldn't grab the flying, but it does help the outlook for Pinnacle. Not to mention NWA has to be happy with the performance of 9E (on-time, completion, ect.) now that Pinnacle's infrastructure has caught up to the fleet size.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Disregard my earlier comment about them toying with me....I just received the XJT interview on the 30th!

Congratulations man! It's an outstanding company. Best of luck to you in the interview.
:beer:

 

[Truckdriver]

Koopster-

Love the avatar and usually agree with your posts, but are you seriously claiming XJT's the #1 regional for upgrade?

Not even close, man.

Actually, the most junior CA was hired May 17 2004. I don't think that is much longer than anyone else out there is it?? Those fellas will be on reserve for awhile but a two year upgrade at XJT isn't a bad deal. When we put those 69 airplanes to use for another airline and CAL increases our utilization rates on the remaining XR's to make up for their loss, I'll bet you'll see 18 month upgrades at XJT. Might even go close to a year because of all the senior folks jumping to SWA and CAL. Great company, awesome contract, and upgrades under two years. If I was in the hunt for a regional job, I know where I would go.

 

[Superpilot92]

Actually, the most junior CA was hired May 17 2004. I don't think that is much longer than anyone else out there is it?? Those fellas will be on reserve for awhile but a two year upgrade at XJT isn't a bad deal. When we put those 69 airplanes to use for another airline and CAL increases our utilization rates on the remaining XR's to make up for their loss, I'll bet you'll see 18 month upgrades at XJT. Might even go close to a year because of all the senior folks jumping to SWA and CAL. Great company, awesome contract, and upgrades under two years. If I was in the hunt for a regional job, I know where I would go.

I hope you are right. It does make since though we shall see. Its going to get interesting here for sure.

 

[DoinTime]

If I was in the hunt for a regional job, I know where I would go.

I remember thinking the same thing when considering a jump from Pinnacle to AirWis, Comair, or ACA about 4-5 years ago. Who would have though those companies would have turned out like they did.

 

[Schwanker]

People seem to forget what compass exactly is. It is for aircraft 76 seats and HIGHER. PInnacle is in competition for everything 76 and lower. The only reason Compass wanted a crj on its fleet was to hold the certificate until they could take some 76 and higher planes early next year. Pinnacle might not look the same one year from today, but they are not going to lose that much flying to this compass thing.

Not Quite:

Compass CANNOT fly aircraft over 76 seats! Anything over 76 seats has to be flown at mainline.

Compass allows NWA to operate 90 aircraft in the 55-76 seat category at a feeder operation. Without Compass, NWA would be limited to 56 aircraft in the 55-76 seat category at feeder operations. The Avros count against these limits.

Schwanker

 

[Detroitpilot22]

Not Quite:

Compass CANNOT fly aircraft over 76 seats! Anything over 76 seats has to be flown at mainline.

Compass allows NWA to operate 90 aircraft in the 55-76 seat category at a feeder operation. Without Compass, NWA would be limited to 56 aircraft in the 55-76 seat category at feeder operations. The Avros count against these limits.

Schwanker

You are right, I went back and double checked the TA, I am sorry for the false info. Although that does make it harder for us, it doesn't mean we are going to just go away.

 

[kmox29]

Not to mention NWA has to be happy with the performance of 9E (on-time, completion, ect.) now that Pinnacle's infrastructure has caught up to the fleet size.

For the last time...NWA does not care about operating performance. Mesaba's operating performance was top notch while Pinnacle couldn't staff, dispatch, or coordinate their airline. Who got the jets? When Pinnacle turned a CRJ into a smoking hole in the ground, who got more jets? Do you know why? Mesaba was almost "too big" (~100 aircraft) and we were in contract negotiations.

If you think Pinnacle is going to be given more aircraft while in contract talks, you don't know anything about the history of Red Tail. No aircraft will come to Mesaba (1113c negotiations) or Pinnacle (contact negotiations) for a while. Don't be suprised to see Pinnacle lose more flying to whomever to put their situation in more dire straits.

By the way, overheard this conversation among some 9E types while waiting for the DTW employee bus:

"Man, I think our contract talks are flying! We've been TA'ing a bunch of sections lately. I know the company wants to get it signed ASAP because then they can have a cost structure for bidding on the RFP. I mean, we only have a few sections left. Compensation, Retirement, Hours of Service, Scheduling, and Scope. I'll bet this will be wrapped up by the end on the month (April '06)"

 

[Lear70]

You are right, I went back and double checked the TA, I am sorry for the false info. Although that does make it harder for us, it doesn't mean we are going to just go away.

No one said "you were going to just go away", we're just saying don't be surprised when the whipsaw begins and Pinnacle loses more aircraft. Learn from history so you're prepared when it repeats itself (it always does).

My personal bet is somewhere between 79 and 90 aircraft when the dust settles will remain at PCL. Any lower than 79 and the IPO looks like it was done in bad faith by Northwest, although they could possibly argue that bankruptcy changed their needs which was something beyond their control, but I doubt it. Too many board members at NWA own large percentages of PCL stock.

By the way, overheard this conversation among some 9E types while waiting for the DTW employee bus:

"Man, I think our contract talks are flying! We've been TA'ing a bunch of sections lately. I know the company wants to get it signed ASAP because then they can have a cost structure for bidding on the RFP. I mean, we only have a few sections left. Compensation, Retirement, Hours of Service, Scheduling, and Scope. I'll bet this will be wrapped up by the end on the month (April '06)"

ROFLMAO!!

I sincerely hope it gets done sooner rather than later for them, and in a POSITIVE way as well, but don't look for it before the end of the year, IF then. Those last sections are the meat and bones of the Agreement.

 

[OMG7778]

The contract at 9E is not going to be done anytime soon, hell Phil in his weekly message was calling the pay cut at NWA a "win". How is anyone taking a pay cut a win? In fact the company is still standing by the captains having to take a 5% pay cut with no work rules, and pushing the rest of the contract from the Jan 9th date. The company has quietly positioned itself to go bankrupt (look at the sec filings about the revolving loan stipulations not being met therefore it may not be renewed, reduces cash on hand that combined with a few other factors and...... bankruptcy and 1113c here we come.) and if you don’t think they wont do it, watch them, NWA and those companies related to them are ruthless. While 9E is not going to go away the potential to reduce the size of the fleet is a very real. Yes while the some of the sections have been TA'd they are the easy sections, i.e. training and small things like that. Most of the TA's they have changed one or two words and that is it, the last sections are the hardest to negotiate. Hell look at ASA, they have been in negotiations for how long? And over what work rules pay and scheduling hummmm look familiar guys? It is nice to be optimistic but reality is things are only going to get a lot more tough. Contracts are not easy things to negotiate, and more than likely neither group is going to be happy with the result. And while yes NWA is going to want to have our contract hammered out too so they will be able to see how much their regional operations are going to cost them we are a low priority and a drop in the bucket compared to the big picture. In a perfect world the new contract would have been signed the day that it becomes amendable, however the longer that we drag out negotiations, the longer the company keeps the cheaper labor costs and a very soft work rules, dragging out negotiations only benefits the company. Retro pay that I keep hearing so many guys talk about, is a negotiable issue, potentially, it will be a fraction of the full retro pay as a signing bonus, but I would be largely skeptical.

OMG

 

[ChoadSnazz]

BS Alert

Too many board members at NWA own large percentages of PCL stock.

Lear70,

Below I've listed the BOD of NWA. Please tell us which ones own "large percentages" of PNCL stock. I believe that you are talking out of your ass.

Board of Directors
Gary L. Wilson - Chairman, Northwest Airlines Corporation
Ray W. Benning, Jr. - Retired Director, Airline Division of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters
Roy J. Bostock - Sealedge Investments, LLC.
John M. Engler - President and CEO, National Association of Manufacturers
Robert L. Friedman - Senior Managing Director of The Blackstone Group L.P.
Doris Kearns Goodwin - Historian & Author
Dennis F. Hightower - Retired Business Executive
Jeffrey G. Katz - Member, Board of Directors
George J. Kourpias - Retired International President, International Association of Machinists & Aerospace Workers
Frederic V. Malek - Chairman, Thayer Capital Partners
Michael Ristow - Captain, Northwest Airlines, Inc.
Douglas M. Steenland - President and Chief Executive Officer, Northwest Airlines Corporation
Leo van Wijk - President & Chief Executive Officer, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines

 

[ChoadSnazz]

Not Exactly

Compass is being created to appease NWA pilots (furloughed guys get half the jobs created).

Grundel,

Get your facts straight. Furloughed NWA pilots will be offered ALL of the Compass jobs. It's just that probably none of them will accept an FO position.

 

[ChoadSnazz]

Not Quite:

Compass CANNOT fly aircraft over 76 seats! Anything over 76 seats has to be flown at mainline.

Compass allows NWA to operate 90 aircraft in the 55-76 seat category at a feeder operation. Without Compass, NWA would be limited to 56 aircraft in the 55-76 seat category at feeder operations. The Avros count against these limits.

Schwanker

Still not quite, but closer:

Compass allows NWA to operate 90 aircraft in the 51-76 seat category at a feeder operation. Without Compass, NWA would be limited to 55 aircraft in the 51-76 seat category at feeder operations. The Avros count against these limits. (and can be replaced with 51-76 seaters on a one for one basis)

 

[PCL_128]

Mesaba's operating performance was top notch while Pinnacle couldn't staff, dispatch, or coordinate their airline.

NWA may not care about it, but our dispatch reliability and on-time performance are second to none. That goes for the CRJs we fly now, and it also applied when we flew the Saabs. Our management "team" may not be able to manage their way out of a paper bag, but our crews work their butts off to make this airline run smoothly.

 

[kmox29]

NWA may not care about it, but our dispatch reliability and on-time performance are second to none.

Well, that'll get you an "attaboy".

 

[Lear70]

Lear70,

Below I've listed the BOD of NWA. Please tell us which ones own "large percentages" of PNCL stock. I believe that you are talking out of your ass.

Board of Directors
Gary L. Wilson - Chairman, Northwest Airlines Corporation
Ray W. Benning, Jr. - Retired Director, Airline Division of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters
Roy J. Bostock - Sealedge Investments, LLC.
John M. Engler - President and CEO, National Association of Manufacturers
Robert L. Friedman - Senior Managing Director of The Blackstone Group L.P.
Doris Kearns Goodwin - Historian & Author
Dennis F. Hightower - Retired Business Executive
Jeffrey G. Katz - Member, Board of Directors
George J. Kourpias - Retired International President, International Association of Machinists & Aerospace Workers
Frederic V. Malek - Chairman, Thayer Capital Partners
Michael Ristow - Captain, Northwest Airlines, Inc.
Douglas M. Steenland - President and Chief Executive Officer, Northwest Airlines Corporation
Leo van Wijk - President & Chief Executive Officer, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines

It was disclosed when the IPO came out, I can't find the original link but I'm not going to spend the morning searching for it either.

3 posts and you already start insulting people. Great, another troll has discovered Flightinfo...

 

[ChoadSnazz]

It was disclosed when the IPO came out, I can't find the original link but I'm not going to spend the morning searching for it either.

3 posts and you already start insulting people. Great, another troll has discovered Flightinfo...

Discovered it long ago. I'm posting now because I'm tired of seeing such unsubstantiated BS go unchallenged. According to Zacks.com, PNCL is 95% institutionally owned, so it is not possible that NWA BOD members own "large percentages" of PNCL. Perhaps you were confused that at the time of the IPO a very large block of stock (19.4M shares) was owned by Northwest Airlines, Inc. Defined Benefit Master Trust for the benefit of the Northwest Airlines Pension Plan for Contract Employees, as well as the Northwest Airlines Pilot Pension Plan. That is no longer the case. That stock had been owned by NWA, but it was used to make mandatory payments to the pension plans. At the time of the IPO NWA retained 2.4M shares.

No insult intended. Have a nice day.

 

[Svetti Grundel]

...damn.

 

[XJETDriver]

Who's XJET?

WTF??? Are you living under a rock?

 

[JT8D]

3 posts and you already start insulting people. Great, another troll has discovered Flightinfo...

Discovered it long ago. I'm posting now because I'm tired of seeing such unsubstantiated BS go unchallenged. According to Zacks.com, PNCL is 95% institutionally owned, so it is not possible that NWA BOD members own "large percentages" of PNCL. Perhaps you were confused that at the time of the IPO a very large block of stock (19.4M shares) was owned by Northwest Airlines, Inc. Defined Benefit Master Trust for the benefit of the Northwest Airlines Pension Plan for Contract Employees, as well as the Northwest Airlines Pilot Pension Plan. That is no longer the case. That stock had been owned by NWA, but it was used to make mandatory payments to the pension plans. At the time of the IPO NWA retained 2.4M shares.

No insult intended. Have a nice day.

Doesn't look to me like Choad is a troll...looks like he knows what he is talking about and handed know-it-all Lear70's a$$ back to him.

Choad, you NW mainline?

 

[Lear70]

Doesn't look to me like Choad is a troll...looks like he knows what he is talking about and handed know-it-all Lear70's a$$ back to him.

Opinions vary.

I wasn't inferring that the NWA BOD owned the majority controlling interest in PCL, I was inferring that they owned RELATIVELY large amounts of stock.

Don't remember where I read that information, it may have been on here and may have been posted in error. If so, then I stand guilty of believing information to be true without verifying every source (something I don't have time for but evidently Choad does).

Also, JT8D, if you're going to sling mud and call me a know-it-all, why don't you come out from behind the cover of anonymity as I have and post your name here...

Didn't think so.

Anyone who won't post their name after calling someone names, even something as mundane as a "know it all" is, by definition, a Troll. Everyone knows who I am, why not tell us who YOU are...?

 

[Svetti Grundel]

Ba-Ba-Ba-Backpedal...

But, hey, anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[ChoadSnazz]

I wasn't inferring that the NWA BOD owned the majority controlling interest in PCL, I was inferring that they owned RELATIVELY large amounts of stock.

Well, here's what you said: "Too many board members at NWA own large percentages of PCL stock." I think you're splitting hairs here. The fact of the matter is that although Northwest Airlines, Inc. once owned Pinnacle Airlines, all but a small stake was divested in the 2003 IPO. I don't believe that there has ever been any public evidence that any (or "many") NWA board members owned "large percentages" (or "relatively large amounts") of PNCL stock.

Don't remember where I read that information, it may have been on here and may have been posted in error. If so, then I stand guilty of believing information to be true without verifying every source (something I don't have time for but evidently Choad does).

I just don't see anything wrong with checking my facts before posting them as statements of fact. Like it or not, people are using information from this forum to help them make career decisions. Do them all a favor and stop posting hearsay, vague recollections, and madeup BS. It seems to me that with 1272 posts in 2 1/2 years you have plenty of time on your hands. May I suggest cutting back on the quantity and using the extra time to improve the quality?

Anyone who won't post their name after calling someone names, even something as mundane as a "know it all" is, by definition, a Troll. Everyone knows who I am, why not tell us who YOU are...?

Anonymity is one of the attractions of a board like this. Who knows, I might be your chief pilot or the guy you flew with last trip. Besides, who really cares who you are?

Now don't forget to call your mother - it's Mothers Day.

 

[Lear70]

I don't believe that there has ever been any public evidence that any (or "many") NWA board members owned "large percentages" (or "relatively large amounts") of PNCL stock.

You "don't believe"...?

Hmmm, sounds like you're posting hearsay, vague recollections, or possibly even madeup B.S.

Sound familiar?

I just don't see anything wrong with checking my facts before posting them as statements of fact. Like it or not, people are using information from this forum to help them make career decisions. Do them all a favor and stop posting hearsay, vague recollections, and madeup BS. It seems to me that with 1272 posts in 2 1/2 years you have plenty of time on your hands. May I suggest cutting back on the quantity and using the extra time to improve the quality?

See above.

With only a few posts to your name, I don't think you have any room to talk.

I have a proven track record of posting good, verifiable information for people to base career-making decision on. Do a search, MOST of my coworkers who have been at the airline for any length of time (2+ years) agree with my statements about the company and the industry.

Like I said, opinions vary.

Anonymity is one of the attractions of a board like this. Who knows, I might be your chief pilot or the guy you flew with last trip. Besides, who really cares who you are?

You're neither, I'd bet my next paycheck on it.

I simply don't appreciate people who sling mud and don't have the balls to say who they are. People don't appreciate anonymity on this board for POSITIVE reasons, only the negative people who have something to lose because they're an A*S appreciate anonymity.

Now don't forget to call your mother - it's Mothers Day.

Already did, have to go spend time with the wife and kids.

Hope you enjoy yours.

 

[ChoadSnazz]

You "don't believe"...?

Hmmm, sounds like you're posting hearsay, vague recollections, or possibly even madeup B.S.

Sound familiar?

No. There is no way I could possibly be certain that there was never any such public information. Rather than rely on a vague recollection like "Don't remember where I read that information, it may have been on here and may have been posted in error," I did my due diligence and posted with this qualifier. Unless you can find something (anything) to back your assertion that "Too many board members at NWA own large percentages of PCL stock," I stand by my post.

With only a few posts to your name, I don't think you have any room to talk.

I have a proven track record of posting good, verifiable information for people to base career-making decision on. Do a search, MOST of my coworkers who have been at the airline for any length of time (2+ years) agree with my statements about the company and the industry.

I can only hope that when (if) I have wasted enough time to have 1200+ posts I will be as wise as you. Meanwhile I find no correlation between number of posts and quality of information posted.

I simply don't appreciate people who sling mud and don't have the balls to say who they are.

I know you don't have much time, but take the time to reread my posts and see if you can find the mud-slinging. I called BS on some false information that you posted, and you obviously don't like it. That doesn't make it mud-slinging. I find that really ironic in light of your signature quote:

Murphy's Law of Logical Argument: for the person you're debating, anything is possible if they don't know what they are talking about.

People don't appreciate anonymity on this board for POSITIVE reasons, only the negative people who have something to lose because they're an A*S appreciate anonymity.

Nothing negative about my posts - merely correcting false information. Now what was that you were saying about mud slinging?

Already did, have to go spend time with the wife and kids.

Hope you enjoy yours.

Me too. You too.

 

[Lear70]

I know you don't have much time, but take the time to reread my posts and see if you can find the mud-slinging. I called BS on some false information that you posted, and you obviously don't like it. That doesn't make it mud-slinging.

Nothing negative about my posts - merely correcting false information. Now what was that you were saying about mud slinging?

So you don't think this comment was negative?

Lear70,

I believe that you are talking out of your ass.

What was that, again? Oh yeah, an insult. Last I checked, that was considered "a negative comment".

Instead of saying, "I don't believe your information is accurate" or "If you have other information, please post it here", you chose to be an a*s about it.

No. There is no way I could possibly be certain that there was never any such public information. Rather than rely on a vague recollection like "Don't remember where I read that information, it may have been on here and may have been posted in error," I did my due diligence and posted with this qualifier.

That's a bunch of double-talking bullsh*t. If you think that somehow you posting a qualifier that says "to the best of my knowledge" is any different than what I did, you're sadly mistaken. That kind of nonsense is what a career politician does to leave themselves an out when they make statements. I see right through it, but nice try.

Unless you can find something (anything) to back your assertion that "Too many board members at NWA own large percentages of PCL stock," I stand by my post.

And I never said your post was inaccurate. Now, instead of telling ME to go back and read what you wrote (I always do), YOU go back and read again and realize that you just did what you were accusing me of doing - not reading the post.

I can only hope that when (if) I have wasted enough time to have 1200+ posts I will be as wise as you. Meanwhile I find no correlation between number of posts and quality of information posted.

Well, first of all, this isn't your first screen name. You recently created this one but you've been on Flightinfo for a while. Your writing style and ability to quote multiple text entries is too experienced for someone with your low number of posts. I suspect you were recently banned or changed your name just to give me a rash of sh*t so I wouldn't know who you were... probably the latter.

Second, at the rate you're going, you'll catch up and PASS my number of posts, if you don't change your screen name. I've been on Flightinfo for YEARS, averaging one post a day. You've been on Flightinfo under THIS screen name for 4 days, averaging 2 posts a day. Do the math.

Lastly, I never said the NUMBER of posts equaled quality information. You're ASSuming things about what I write. What I DID say was that, with the length of time and the number of subjects I've responded to, that my track record of giving good information is solid. That's why I get 2 or 3 PM's a day asking me for advice from people I've never met who read what I write then see it happen.

I have no reason to worry about you thinking I give out bad information, everyone else knows better.

 

[ChoadSnazz]

So you don't think this comment was negative?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChoadSnazz
Lear70,

I believe that you are talking out of your ass.
What was that, again? Oh yeah, an insult. Last I checked, that was considered "a negative comment".

Instead of saying, "I don't believe your information is accurate" or "If you have other information, please post it here", you chose to be an a*s about it.

Really, as I said before, no insult intended. Where I'm from, "talking out of your ass" is a colloquialism meaning "making a statement without the benefit of its passing through the brain."

I think that as the head of the mud-slinging negativity police you should stop calling me an "A*S." It really sets a bad example for your devoted followers.

That's a bunch of double-talking bullsh*t. If you think that somehow you posting a qualifier that says "to the best of my knowledge" is any different than what I did, you're sadly mistaken. That kind of nonsense is what a career politician does to leave themselves an out when they make statements. I see right through it, but nice try.

Fair enough, to appease you I'll restate my position:

There is no public information available to indicate that "Too many board members at NWA own large percentages of PCL stock." As you prefer, "I don't believe your information is accurate" and "If you have other information, please post it here. "

Well, first of all, this isn't your first screen name. You recently created this one but you've been on Flightinfo for a while. Your writing style and ability to quote multiple text entries is too experienced for someone with your low number of posts. I suspect you were recently banned or changed your name just to give me a rash of sh*t so I wouldn't know who you were... probably the latter.

I have been on Flightinfo for awhile. Your post brought me out of lurking. Congratulations. This is my first and only screen name at Flightinfo, although I am flattered that you recognize my skills.

Second, at the rate you're going, you'll catch up and PASS my number of posts, if you don't change your screen name. I've been on Flightinfo for YEARS, averaging one post a day. You've been on Flightinfo under THIS screen name for 4 days, averaging 2 posts a day. Do the math.

All but two of those posts have been part of a continuing dialogue with you.

Lastly, I never said the NUMBER of posts equaled quality information. You're ASSuming things about what I write. What I DID say was that, with the length of time and the number of subjects I've responded to, that my track record of giving good information is solid. That's why I get 2 or 3 PM's a day asking me for advice from people I've never met who read what I write then see it happen.

I didn't question your "track record of giving good information," only one statement from one post, and apparently I've really hit a raw nerve. Much of what you have posted in recent weeks is solid analysis, IMHO. This particular statement was not.

I have no reason to worry about you thinking I give out bad information, everyone else knows better.

I will sleep better tonight knowing that. I am tired of this thread now, so I'll be moving on, although I do have my limits, and if you try really hard I'm sure that you can still goad me into responding.