Will NWA strike?

[pilotyip]

Remember the UAL battle cry of the old board "Max Pay to the Last Day". then the last day came and they took what was offered, because it was better than the other alternatives

 

[Andy]

I am glad that I'm not currently in the industry. I'm more than happy to sit this downturn out sitting on furlough.
I don't want to see this newco get born; I'd love to see something where all of that flying stays mainline (it's all to replace -9 flying). But I won't be surprised to see some compromise where you give up a bunch 70 seater flying (those that were on property at my UAL gave up the farm to try to save their pensions).
Beware the pension threat. Management can wipe out your pension at any time. Don't let them use 'saving the pensions' as a tool to extract huge concessions, because they'll probably wipe out the pensions anyway.
To all at NWA and DAL, all the best. You'll be faced with MANY tough challenges and those of us on the sidelines will armchair quarterback all of your decisions. (I guess that's what us pilots do; second guess and analyze everything).
Whatever decision you make, don't think twice about it. Strike or no strike, newco or no newco, that's YOUR call. (The pension or no pension is entirely management's call). It's a lot easier for others in this business who don't have pensions or those ugly choices to harrass you. Ignore them.
Frats,
Andy

 

[WhiteCloud]

Beware the pension threat. Management can wipe out your pension at any time. Don't let them use 'saving the pensions' as a tool to extract huge concessions, because they'll probably wipe out the pensions anyway.

Does anyone really want to save the old style pensions anyway? After seeing what's gone on the past few years I imagine even the most senior pilots would want some alternative to take what they've earned and get it out of the hands of airline management. The days of trusting some employer to handle your money are over.

 

[Andy]

Remember the UAL battle cry of the old board "Max Pay to the Last Day". then the last day came and they took what was offered, because it was better than the other alternatives

That was USAirways. There may have been a couple of people saying that at UAL, but UAL was in pretty dire straits when C2003 was negotiated. That's not to justify the fukking giveaways of C2003 or the unlimited 70 seaters side letter, just that things were pretty nasty for UAL back then.
There was the chap 11 filing Dec 02, SARS, CEOs were playing musical chairs (with no one interested in sitting in the hot seat), revenues were plummeting, etc.
I was furloughed in Mar 02, so I sat on the sidelines watching it all unfold. When I was furloughed, I thought I'd be back 6 months later. 6 months later, I thought I'd be back in about 3 years. By spring 03 (before C2003), I (and many others, including most pundits on this board) expected UAL to close its doors.
While I had no problem with the pay givebacks on C2003, I had a great deal of angst over the work rule changes. Now those that are living the life of an LCO reserve pilot at UAL are bearing the brunt of those giveaway work rule changes. I don't expect to see many of them revert back when the contract becomes amiable in 2010 (I didn't like the length of contract either).
But 'Full pay to the last day' was a USAirways chant, not UAL.

 

[pilotyip]

My mistake, hope you understand it had a U and an A in it and could be easily confused.

 

[Andy]

Does anyone really want to save the old style pensions anyway? After seeing what's gone on the past few years I imagine even the most senior pilots would want some alternative to take what they've earned and get it out of the hands of airline management. The days of trusting some employer to handle your money are over.

Last few years? ANYONE in this industry who counts on the company being around when they retire is rolling the bones. I don't care if you work for Southwest (oh yeah, they don't have a pension).
Airlines that were once leaders in the industry have bitten the dust, leaving pilot pensions to the PBGC ... Pan Am (91), Eastern (91), Braniff (82); the list is very long. Any pilot who expects/expected to collect a pension from their airline after 1991 has not been a student of airline history.

 

[Andy]

My mistake, hope you understand it had a U and an A in it and could be easily confused.

No sweateeda, GI.
It was a painful time for observers to watch pilot wages take a slide backward. It was much more painful for those of us with direct connections to the companies; seared indelibly into our craniums.
Walking a mile in a pilot's shoes whose company faces possible liquidation is as painful as walking barefoot on a bed of coals (no firsthand experience of the latter). It's hard to empathize until you have to do the concession walk.

 

[320AV8R]

I agree with you, the senior pilots at NWA probably won't vote to end it.

Our strike vote in 1998 was almost unanimous......among senior and junior pilots.....and the sticking point then was the B-scale.

Since then, the horrid Mgmt / ALPA relations have been freefalling.....and gaining speed.

You outsiders can speculate about the situation, but being here is a different story. The guys here are fed up.....and have been so for quite awhile. I have no doubt in my mind that senior / junior; Red / Green / Blue; WB / NB; etc are united and will take the appropriate action.

320AV8R

 

[ualdriver]

That's not to justify the fukking giveaways of C2003 or the unlimited 70 seaters side letter, just that things were pretty nasty for UAL back then.

Actually, we don't have a deal for unlimited 70 seaters, although it may seem like it. They can have as many RJ's as we have mainline aircraft.

There was the chap 11 filing Dec 02, SARS, CEOs were playing musical chairs (with no one interested in sitting in the hot seat), revenues were plummeting, etc.
I was furloughed in Mar 02, so I sat on the sidelines watching it all unfold. When I was furloughed, I thought I'd be back 6 months later. 6 months later, I thought I'd be back in about 3 years. By spring 03 (before C2003), I (and many others, including most pundits on this board) expected UAL to close its doors.

I don't think many people realize HOW CLOSE we came to shutting the operation down.

While I had no problem with the pay givebacks on C2003, I had a great deal of angst over the work rule changes. Now those that are living the life of an LCO reserve pilot at UAL are bearing the brunt of those giveaway work rule changes. I don't expect to see many of them revert back when the contract becomes amiable in 2010 (I didn't like the length of contract either).
But 'Full pay to the last day' was a USAirways chant, not UAL.

Some history on the UAL LCO (LCO = all 737 and A320/TED flying). Not many people seem to remember this but Tilton (our CEO) threatened to do the same exact thing that Northwest is trying to do their pilot group- split off the entire narrowbody operation under a different organization and different seniority list. THE SAME EXACT THING NWA management is trying now. UAL ALPA told UAL management that this "split" was a no-brainer-not-gonna-happen-instant-strike-thing. After much back and forth and threats from our end and their end, management backed down. The compromise were the LCO pay/work rules, which brought us down to Airtran/JetBlue/Frontier wages and work rules so that we could compete with them at least from a labor cost standpoint. I have little doubt that the NWA pilot group will strike over this NEWCO issue and management will back down accordingly with some sort of compromise, just like with what happened at UAL.

As far as the Contract 2010 negotiations I agree that we'll never get the pay or workrules that we gave up unless payrates and work rules at these "low cost" carriers go up as well so that we can remain "competitive." If what has happened at JetBlue is any indication of pay rates for the future (particularly with the EMB190 rates and their overall payscale not being adjusted for inflation at all), I don't see us getting much of anything in 2010 and I'm hoping that they won't come after us to lower our 100ish seat jet (737-300/500) down to their E190 rates. Perhaps we'll have better luck with Airtran, Frontier, etc., and I am hopeful for that.

 

[dbrownie]

Our strike vote in 1998 was almost unanimous......among senior and junior pilots.....and the sticking point then was the B-scale.

Since then, the horrid Mgmt / ALPA relations have been freefalling.....and gaining speed.

You outsiders can speculate about the situation, but being here is a different story. The guys here are fed up.....and have been so for quite awhile. I have no doubt in my mind that senior / junior; Red / Green / Blue; WB / NB; etc are united and will take the appropriate action.

320AV8R

320;

Can you believe the shi!birds now say they don't have to pay the 5% match

as they promised!!!!! WTFO!!

They keep lying to our faces over and over again.

Sad day to be flying the red tail....

Dave B

 

[320AV8R]

320;

Can you believe the shi!birds now say they don't have to pay the 5% match

as they promised!!!!! WTFO!!

They keep lying to our faces over and over again.

Sad day to be flying the red tail....

Dave B

Dave-

It's surprising, but then it's not.

These guys (in Management) are snakes.

They did their residency with Lorenzo.

They only lie when they are speaking.

I stopped trusting them after we had to litigate our 3% snap-back.

320AV8R

 

[COpilot]

320A,

Who are you not trusting? The other thread says your MEC Chair knew that this was in the fine print, but refused to explain this to the membership before vote.

 

[320AV8R]

320A,

Who are you not trusting? The other thread says your MEC Chair knew that this was in the fine print, but refused to explain this to the membership before vote.

I don't trust anyone in NWA Mgmt.....period. Not even our Director of Flight Opertions, who is a 757 CA, & refers to us as "Stinking Employees". All phone calls to Scheduling, etc. are recorded. Most crew areas are under video surveilence. Everything is documented. They watch your every move. One guy had a safety concern a few years ago, & they sent him to CA for "psychological testing". Sound fun ? I could go on.

The ALPA guys are doing the best they can, under the circumstances. It's like they're riding a bikcycle without a seat & trying to compete with Lance Armstrong, however.

320AV8R

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