Will EJA and EJI Merge Operations?

[Heavy Set]

I have heard that Bill Bosture, former head of Gulfstream, has joined EJA and that he is "cleaning house." What is the likelihood that EJA and EJI would be merged into one operation? Why wouldn't they given the potential operational synergies?

How would EJA and EJI pilots respond to this if it happened? Any opinions from EJA and EJI pilots?

 

[Diesel]

sigh..... Get ready for a debate. It's like kicking a hornets nest.

My vote. Stay in seat till the last G wiz guy is upgraded in his plane. Otherwise staple to the bottom with if they want to upgrade out of plane it's what their stapled number holds.

I believe this is most fare. Most G whiz boys don't want to move out of their G plane.

 

[bizjet737]

being near the top of the netjets list it wouldn't affect me - however, the only fair way to do it is to staple eji to the bottom of the list. so many eja guys left for eji for whatever reason, however, they can't just come back to where they were. maybe some sort of "grandfather" clause allowing to stay in their light twin for a year or so, then must bid whatever their number holds.

 

[On Your Six]

It's ridiculous to keep them apart. What benefit is it to the company to have separate pilots groups and separate staffs dedicated to EJI? Flight Options doesn't separate its pilot groups by aircraft type - I realize that the separation was instigated by Gulfstream and Ted Forstmann when EJI was set up (didn't want union on the property). Now that Boisture is in, there is no reason to keep them separate any more - that just adds to the cost...

My opinion with regard to the pilots: allow them to stay on the Gulfstream if they want (don't kick them off of the plane if they have been typed), but incorporate a DOH formula for anyone who wants to jump off the Gulfstream. Some EJI FOs might want fewer long-haul flights and flying a Beechjet or Excel as Captain might be more appealing to them... Regardless, the pilot lists need to be merged. Personally, if I were an EJA pilot, I'd want to fly a Gulftstream 550 some time in my career...

That's my $0.2

 

[FracPilot]

Otherwise staple to the bottom with if they want to upgrade out of plane it's what their stapled number holds.

I don't know why anybody ever bothers to ask a question like this..the above answer is ALWAYS the one you will get from the EJA pilots. It's a given. They're looking out for their own careers first. I can't blame them. I can't say I agree with their canned answer, but I can't blame them for it.

If/when it happens, it will be messy, and there will forever be animosity in the ranks. Not everybody, but some people.

 

[CatYaaak]

I think the merge is eventually going to happen whether NetJets wants it to or not. I'm fairly sure that our group of pilots is going to demand that non-union pilots are not allowed to fly our planes or customers.

As to the exact nature of the seniority lists, it would probably head to arbitration to get resolved. As far as I'm concerned, those guys have refused to join the union so they can be stapled to the bottom.

I was just wondering how you figure they are YOUR airplanes, since you never operated them, and since Gulfstream owners purchased shares in them specifically because they are Gulfstreams, how are they YOUR customers? I do love the part you wrote about "those guys have refused to join the union". Why on earth would they want to???......they might have to take pay cuts down to the union pay scales "enjoyed" at NJA.

Is there any logic behind your post, or are you just play-acting the part of a bitter union thug who figures he can vote himself into a G-lV rating or punish those who don't drink the same kool-aid? He11 man, your tone is positively Bolshevik ("Those who refuse to join zee Party shall be sent to zee List Bottom Gulag!")

I swear you guys crack me up!

 

[CatYaaak]

being near the top of the netjets list it wouldn't affect me - however, the only fair way to do it is to staple eji to the bottom of the list. so many eja guys left for eji for whatever reason, however, they can't just come back to where they were. maybe some sort of "grandfather" clause allowing to stay in their light twin for a year or so, then must bid whatever their number holds.

If they do merge, I think the old EJI guys who already had G-lV type ratings and time-in-type when they got hired off the street should get higher seniority than any now-near-to-the-top EJA guys who PFTed when they bought their jobs at EJA and now pretend that never happened.

What do you think Mr. Heavy Iron?

 

[bizjet737]

If they do merge, I think the old EJI guys who already had G-lV type ratings and time-in-type when they got hired off the street should get higher seniority than any now-near-to-the-top EJA guys who PFTed when they bought their jobs at EJA and now pretend that never happened.

What do you think Mr. Heavy Iron?

it doesn't really matter to me how long anyone flying the light-twins at eji have been there, i've been here double. the guys at netjets who are "senior" in doh to the most "senior" guy at eji didn't PFT.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Why not let the customers decide?

 

[CatYaaak]

Pretty simple. They are customers of NetJets. What part of that don't you understand? Maybe if I say it slowly for the learning impared - N E T J E T S ... A B E R K S H I R E H A T H A W A Y C O M P A N Y

Yes, they're customers of NetJets International. What part of I N T E R N A T I O N A L don't you understand? Are you inferring they somehow stole "your" flying...flying ownders you never did in aircraft you never operated?

I don't blame them either. Did I say somewhere in my post that I don't understand their motives? I do expect them to lie in the bed they've made for themselves.

Sounds to me like you're the one having trouble lying in the bed you made for yourself.

They chose to work as non-union employees at a company with a large union presence understanding that someday that might bite them in the ass. Once that day comes, they'll have no sympathy from me.

Well there was never any union presense at EJI/NJI, and there's no doubt you've certainly become a banner-waver for yours. But from your above sentence it's clear that even you aknowledge bringing your union in there would be detrimental to that pilot group ("bite them in the ass"). Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the union Party Line claim that being unionized will improve a workers lot? If it's so great, why haven't they demanded representation? Or perhaps you consider pilots at NJI to be some kind of "psuedo-scabs", and therefore deserving of punishment (stapled to the bottom) even though they worked a deal better than yours. If that's the case and you have nothing better to offer, then your attitude boils down to nothing more than union-thug pettiness.

Of course you're certainly entitled to your opinion, just like I'm entitled to mine regarding pilots who promote low-pay/PFT/training contracts in the business jet world by going to work for companies that have them (btw, do you still have to pay for your own housing during initial over there?), and then attempt to drape a mantle of I'm-raising-the-bar-Righteousness around themselves by virtue of a union card issued later. That's like a herd of zebras spray-painting each other dark brown and trying to pass themselves off as potential Kentucky Derby-winning thoroughbreds (no doubt within the confines of their own zoo they'll convince each other of this) After all, a street-walker who specializes in dressing up like a nun at work is still a whore, even after she begins to delude herself she really is one, and seedy by-the-hour motels are convents.

So I certainly don't doubt your No-sympathy attitude to those who don't view the world through your union-prizm. Not one bit. In fact it's entirely predictable. After all, it's an oft-repeated story; Workers of the World unite but find they can't improve their own lot quickly enough, so they end up looking for others they can drag down to their level or lower. It's a Borg thing with no upside for those you seek to absorb, so please excuse me if I don't salute your efforts to expand yourself.

You seem to infer a lot about my motives. Incorrectly I might add. I have no desire to fly the G-Whiz. In 20 years in the military, I got more than enough international flying to satisfy me. I'm more concerned about how much time off I get than in what piece of aluminum I sit in.

Well, with that 20-year retirement supplementing your income no wonder training contracts and flying business jets for such low pay isn't your concern, nor unique over where you work. But your stated concern... "time off"... is ultimately a function of seniority at NJA, is it not? How nice for you then, if your number suddenly rose by merging the groups and stapling them to the bottom thus giving you more options. Why Comrade, that could be interpreted as bourgois "Looking out for No 1" thoughts instead of putting Party first.

Nice post though...hope it didn't take too long to cough up. [/B]

 

[On Your Six]

CatYaaak,

Nice tone. This is why emotion should not be injected into this argument. Here's the point - you do not need separate pilot groups based on aircraft any more given the new management and the perceived need to reduce overlapping costs...

You do not need separate groups - it's that simple. To that end, a DOH formula should be applied. The BBJ drivers at the very top will likely not be impacted at all.

 

[AeroBoy]

I have a couple of questions: Is EJI/NJI owned jointly by NetJets and Gulfstream? If so, what percentage does each company own?

 

[Lord Wakefield]

EJI pilots don't have seniority now. Why should the EJA union give it to them. They should at the least pay back dues for anything more than a staple.

 

[CatYaaak]

it doesn't really matter to me how long anyone flying the light-twins at eji have been there, i've been here double. the guys at netjets who are "senior" in doh to the most "senior" guy at eji didn't PFT.

Hmmm.....let's see..first the choosing of the "Bizjet737" moniker, and now the second reference to Gulfstreams being "light twins". Yep, sounds like Big Fish in a Little Pond Syndrome to me. Hey, as Ego-deflation Therapy I suggest a few trips to where BBJs are thick as weeds and tossing a brick down the street would hit at least half a dozen pilots in the head who could rightfully call themselves (that is, if they thought they were that special) "Bizjet757/767" or "BizjetA340". Just last summer I remember having some beers in Beirut with...well let's just call him "Bizjet777", who thought BBJs were cute.

But putting aside your mine-is-bigger-than-yours inferences, I seem to recall that EJI began in 1995. Are you trying to tell me that EJA didn't have PFT prior to 1995? Or you didn't notice, or care, when it was insituted because you were already there? (doing the math from your post, your DOH circa 1987/88).

 

[CatYaaak]

Mr Cat

Its very simple really.

Anyone had a choice to go with the union operation instead of the non union operation if they wanted to.

But not vice versa, because when it started your chances of getting hired there w/o a G-IV rating and experience was slim to none. Why on earth would someone with that want to go fly SIC in a Citation for $20,000 a year in those days just so they could say they were in a union?

Those that chose not to if they change their minds now... dont get to JUMP into the head or the middle of the Line. Its just not polite. You dont do it in the supermarket. You don't do it at DisneyWorld. You go to the back of the line.

But the discussion at hand isn't about them CHANGING their minds. My response to Griz was his theory that they would be FORCED into your ranks. That's polite? If so, then hijackings are polite.

I am personally happy with the way things are now. Don't want a merger. But if there is ... my feeling is seniority number is issued effective the first day Union Dues are paid.

Now THAT'S funny!

 

[On Your Six]

My understanding is that Gulfstream pay for the EJI guys STINKS relative to most coporate operators. I wouldn't be surpised if a lot of the EJI guys would actually WELCOME some union protection...

I doubt type-rated Gulfstream pilots would be sent to Ultra FO positions - that doesn't sound reasonable given the training costs.

Regardless, a merger of pilot groups makes the most sense...

 

[Publishers]

Right

the child like attitudes expressed here are why this industry condems itself to be so screwed up all the time.

The fact is that none of you own one single bit of any flying done by any of you period. It is that same idiotic speal that airline types spew constantly.

By the way, single carrier status has nothing to do with this type company.

 

[GVFlyer]

... I realize that the separation was instigated by Gulfstream and Ted Forstmann when EJI was set up (didn't want union on the property). Now that Boisture is in, there is no reason to keep them separate any more - that just adds to the cost...


That's my $0.2

Not true. The initial contract between Gulfstream and NetJets was a Bill Boisture - Richard Santulli deal. Forstmann and Santulli are too much alike to get along easily. Gulfstream provided the first three "core" aircraft because Santulli could not capitalize the deal at that time. It was jointly decided that only well experienced Gulfstream pilots would be hired for the new venture in that safety was to be a key marketing point and buyers would be guaranteed highly qualified Gulfstream pilots. To draw the kind of pilots desired, starting and subsequent salaries were set to be industry leading (and still are).

Within a year EJI was profitable enough to give back the original three core aircraft and purchase their own to replace them.

Other than for maintenance, joint marketing and sales is the only relationship currently existing between Gulfstream and NJI. Gulfstream sells Shares to existing Gulfstream customers and large cabin aircraft owners. NJI sells Gulfstream Shares to mid and small cabin aircraft owners as well as "Concept Buyers."

As an aside, I can tell you that the pilots at NJI don't want anything to do with the union operation and are frankly amazed at NJA's continuing interest in them. We had a couple of 1/8 th shares and under NJI's rules the owning companies' pilots can fly in command on NJI aircraft as long as they meet NJI qualification and experience requirements as well as passing written, oral and flight checks. As such, I flew as a NJI Captain on our share aircraft for over a year and got to know many of the line pilots very well. I also know the Bluffton leadership group from our efforts in initially establishing the EJI program as well as from working special joint projects with them. I think I have a pretty balanced view of the organization and it is my observation that the NJI pilots are a very happy group with things just as they are.

As yet another aside, I find it interesting to note that NJA has broken their agreement with Boeing, is returning three BBJ's, and will be operating the remaining three Boeings as primarily charter aircraft.


GV







.

 

[On Your Six]

GV Flyer,

Wow - I stand corrected on a few issues - thanks for clearing them up. I suppose unionization is not for everyone... Regardless, in this case I don't see how maintaining separate pilot forces would be good for the operation on an economic basis. Sure, merging pilot groups will NEVER BE PRETTY, but sometimes it is a necessity.

There must be an equitable DOH formula that can be used in this case - one that perhaps does not displace Gulfstream pilots who want to stay in the aircraft - some pilots might welcome a change...

How does that sound?

 

[CE750Driver]

Cat, as a 7 year Capt at NJA, I will put my pay against yours on a per day of work basis anyday, and that is before the new contract. I dont know where you think that any other fractional pays more after a few years. Fact is they dont, and we dont get put back to year 1 pay when we change airplanes. Also we have PROTECTED rest, PROTECTED rights, and PROTECTED jobs. We recently had a pilot rehired after the union steped up and said BS as to why the company fired him. When is the last time a pilot was fired at any other fractional and then hired back when the charge was found to be bogus?

As far as NJI goes, most dont want them in our ranks. With the Falcon 200ex's coming next year, and most likely the Falcons 7x's coming after, and the possibilty of ssbj's in the future, we really dont need them. We all know where ANY other plane that comes to netjets will go. NJA (Thanks union!). Must have hurt for NJI to see those G200's and G150's coming our way. The writing is on the wall. Also, talking to the union lawyer, single carrier status does apply, and after the contract, the membership will decide whether or not we file it (Thanks for the choice union).

The Boeing-Netjets is ending, to the dismay of Boeing, who is fighting it every step of the way. They wanted out when the economy was bad and we werent chartering them. Now that they are flying there azzes off, they did a flip flop. Either way their core aircraft will be ours and they will be out of the program by the end of the year (Thanks union).

The IBT and Netjets has been laughed at and called names since I came here, funny thing is our current contract is better already than any other out there. So laugh away naysayers. He who laughs last laughs best.