Will Duane Worth ratify the Comair agreement?

[DoinTime]

Several years ago Duane Worth shocked many in the industry by his steadfast refusal to sign off on a concessionary deal that was ratified by the pilots at CCAir. I believe his reasoning was that it is not ALPA's policy to agree to concessions without the company having financial necessity for such an agreement.

Now that we have a repeat of nearly identical terms at Comair will Duane have the balls to do whats right for the "Association" once again?

 

[homerjdispatch]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA


Yeah right...... Worthless will not do this in his wildest dreams.


Its a shame!

 

[PCL_128]

I wish, but that's just not like Duh-wayne. I believe part of his reason for not signing the CCAir contract was that they were unduly pressured into agreeing to it. Management forced their hand and they really had no choice but to vote yes or they would all be out of work. Thankfully the one good thing about the Mesa contract was that it saved the CCAir pilots in the end. The Comair deal is a lot different though. These guys weren't pressured, they were just tricked. Now the rest of us have to live with the consequences of their ignorance.

 

[Slim]

Who knows?!?

It would not be the first time on the part of Duane Woerth(less) or any ALPA president.

CCAir's situation was DW's. One of the old Allegheny Commuter carriers had their TA rejected by the refusal of the sitting ALPA president to ratify. If memory serves accurately, that was J.J. O'Donnell and the carrier was Suburban or Pennsylvania Airlines. I met one of their former pilots after he was hired at AA.

He told me one of the best things about coming to AA was they were not an ALPA-represented carrier.

If DW refuses to ratify this LOA, I believe negotiations would resume. CMR still wants concessions from the F/As and the mechanics are returning to the bargaining table following rejection of their TA.

Approval of this LOA establishes a precedent which will be hard to change. When the end of this freeze approaches, I predict the CMR pilots will be told the following..."We have an opportunity to get another (choose any number) 70-seat airplanes. But the banks don't like the numbers of the PWA. If you'll just extend the freeze for just another 18-24 months, the banks will lend us the money for these additional airplanes. You did it in 2005, and we really appreciate it. Would you please do it again...you know...for the good of the company?"

Well, my insurance premiums went up, my mortgage payment went up because of property tax increases, gas and utility costs are increasing, and my fellow pilots just took money of of all our pockets!

A lot of pilots who voted yes on this saw nothing but the upgrade potential. I voted NO because pilots aren't hired to run the airline they work for. The CASM everyone loves referring to goes down when there are more seats in each airplane. The delivery of 25 70 seaters to CMR will lower the CASM and 60% of the CMR pilot group just gave the company a gift of even lower CASM!

This will come back to haunt us!

 

[P38JLightning]

"the bar"

>>>>A lot of pilots who voted yes on this saw nothing but the upgrade potential. I voted NO because pilots aren't hired to run the airline they work for. The CASM everyone loves referring to goes down when there are more seats in each airplane. The delivery of 25 70 seaters to CMR will lower the CASM and 60% of the CMR pilot group just gave the company a gift of even lower CASM!

>>>>This will come back to haunt us!

Slim,

As a fellow "39er" I agree with your logic but I have a different twist to your thesis (which I also mostly agree with).

Your CASM reference is dead on. Comair pilots can't buy airplanes anymore than CHQ or SKYW pilots can buy airplanes, and in all cases, the company buying (or leasing, whatever) more airplanes lowers the company's costs and makes the company more profits.

Why then did the CHQ pilots, years after we put 46/hr 50 seat FO and 51/hr 70 FO pay rates on the books, agree to cap all FO's at 34 in all equipment, including 70 and *dry heave* 100 seaters? Why when we put 120/hr 70 seat CA rates on the books did CHQ agree to 94/hr top scale (for 70 seaters) and 104/hr for 100 seaters? Why did Mesa agree to 90 seat pay less than our 50? Why when we got 11/12 days off for reserves did Mesa settle for 8? Why did SKYW agree to fly 99 seat and under for less than our 50 rates, and WAY less than our 70 rates? Why did Mesaba top their FO's out at 38 and their AVRO CA's at 94, again, way less than our 50 and 70 rates. Why did AirWhiskey and ACA engage in a bidding/concession war (which ACA did agree to by the way, contingent upon a renewed UAL deal. the UAL deal didn't happen so that particular concession didn't happen, but they signed a different concession later for FLYi, but the initial ACA concession and the Whiskey concession were inked both during periods of profitability)

So I view the Comair concession as contributing to the downward spiral, but "it" coming back to haunt us is a tad incorrect. Everyone else who has signed contracts after us just to get growth is what is haunting us.

We didn't start the "please buy airplanes for me" nonsense. We've just followed other's leads and contributed to the cancer.

XJet I guess you could say got anywhere from Comair minus a few % to maybe, just maybe, break even or plus a %, but they didn't have to deal with the whipsaw (okay a few beeches and brazilias, but no jets) if they did I'd bet they would have settled for a lot less. their next time around they will likely not be in such a good position.

Now ASA and Pinnacle are dogging us for lowering the bar. Good, I hope they are really as motivated/united/rabid as they claim to be. I doubt it though. They have already started the excuse making about how they will have to settle for (you guesses it) Comair minus contracts, well below even our concessionary agreement. Kinda makes you wonder if they ever had the stones to top us to begin with. Time will tell.

 

[viper01]

I didn't hear anyone make an excuse that they have to settle for comair minus, especially the ASA pilot group. They may have to settle for what comair has now, but nothing less.

 

[SLFLYHI]

In the most recent issue of Airline Pilot, Duane Worth boldly proclaimed that it is time for managements to stop using labor cuts to in effect pay for their poor management decisions that have sent their companies into ruin. I remember reading it and saying to myself, "finally - someone at the top has said what needed to be said..."

If he now flip-flops and buys off on the Comair concessions, then he is a hypocrite and should be impeached or overthrown. His very words will come back to haunt him if he waivers.

 

[C425Driver]

Woerthless will sign the agreement.

Part of the agreement with the DAL pilots included relaxed scope on 70 seat aircraft if furloughted DAL pilots are given preferential hiring. DW would sell his mother to protect a mainline pilot so I don't think he will hesitate to sign this one. Don't get me wrong, I truly wish we helped out the furloughed guys/gals a long time ago, but I think this will be the most important factor to DW above all else.

Let's just hope he doesn't try to force J4J on us!

C425Driver
A very disappointed 'No" voter

 

[Chest Rockwell]

As long as Captain and FO pay are structured the way that they are everywhere, upgrade is going to be a big carrot in negotiations. The upgrade is the biggest pay increase/quality of life move we ever see. every FOP wants to move up. Every Captain wants to see them move up and improve his/her relative seniority/bidding power/QOL. As long as the pay for the crew is split 65/35, or thereabouts, this will continue.

 

[labbats]

>>>>A lot of pilots who voted yes on this saw nothing but the upgrade potential. I voted NO because pilots aren't hired to run the airline they work for. The CASM everyone loves referring to goes down when there are more seats in each airplane. The delivery of 25 70 seaters to CMR will lower the CASM and 60% of the CMR pilot group just gave the company a gift of even lower CASM!

>>>>This will come back to haunt us!

Slim,

As a fellow "39er" I agree with your logic but I have a different twist to your thesis (which I also mostly agree with).

Your CASM reference is dead on. Comair pilots can't buy airplanes anymore than CHQ or SKYW pilots can buy airplanes, and in all cases, the company buying (or leasing, whatever) more airplanes lowers the company's costs and makes the company more profits.

Why then did the CHQ pilots, years after we put 46/hr 50 seat FO and 51/hr 70 FO pay rates on the books, agree to cap all FO's at 34 in all equipment, including 70 and *dry heave* 100 seaters? Why when we put 120/hr 70 seat CA rates on the books did CHQ agree to 94/hr top scale (for 70 seaters) and 104/hr for 100 seaters? Why did Mesa agree to 90 seat pay less than our 50? Why when we got 11/12 days off for reserves did Mesa settle for 8? Why did SKYW agree to fly 99 seat and under for less than our 50 rates, and WAY less than our 70 rates? Why did Mesaba top their FO's out at 38 and their AVRO CA's at 94, again, way less than our 50 and 70 rates. Why did AirWhiskey and ACA engage in a bidding/concession war (which ACA did agree to by the way, contingent upon a renewed UAL deal. the UAL deal didn't happen so that particular concession didn't happen, but they signed a different concession later for FLYi, but the initial ACA concession and the Whiskey concession were inked both during periods of profitability)

So I view the Comair concession as contributing to the downward spiral, but "it" coming back to haunt us is a tad incorrect. Everyone else who has signed contracts after us just to get growth is what is haunting us.

We didn't start the "please buy airplanes for me" nonsense. We've just followed other's leads and contributed to the cancer.

XJet I guess you could say got anywhere from Comair minus a few % to maybe, just maybe, break even or plus a %, but they didn't have to deal with the whipsaw (okay a few beeches and brazilias, but no jets) if they did I'd bet they would have settled for a lot less. their next time around they will likely not be in such a good position.

Now ASA and Pinnacle are dogging us for lowering the bar. Good, I hope they are really as motivated/united/rabid as they claim to be. I doubt it though. They have already started the excuse making about how they will have to settle for (you guesses it) Comair minus contracts, well below even our concessionary agreement. Kinda makes you wonder if they ever had the stones to top us to begin with. Time will tell.

well said