Why rent airplanes???

[54tw]

There's a lot to consider when making the decision to purchase. Don't rush it.

I'll add leave the ego/emotions out of the decision unless you can put a value on it.

Do as I say... Not as I do.

 

[UnAnswerd]

It is said that the two happiest days for an aircraft owner are the day he/she buys the airplane and the day he/she sells it. Think about that statement.

Ha, I heard the same thing about boats. You guys are probably right. I didn't realize an annual inspection was so expensive. Engine overhauls are obviously a big expense too. I guess it would help to become an A&P....

 

[F16fixer]

Too expensive

I live in southern Mn, where things are cheaper than out west or east. One of my flying buddies had to sell his 172 3 days ago because of the cost. After hangar rent, insurance, annual, license, and gas his total cost was around $8,000. (for 50 hours of flying last year) Do the math. Thats $160 an hour for roughly 4 hours a month like you stated that you fly. Oh, by the way, that doesn't include any of his payments on the 1999 skyhawk.

Just trying to help.

 

[English]

I definitely recommend buying an aircraft over renting. I bought my first aircraft in the late 90s with two partners. It was a 1980 Cessna Hawk XP. We flew the airplane enough to where we had our hourly costs down to 37-ish an hour (including an engine overhaul fund of 11 an hour) but not including our monthly payment (mine was $255 a month). We bought the airplane for 55,000 (it had maybe 500 hours on the engine) and sold it a few years later for 65,000 (maybe 1500 on the engine by then).

My recommendation is to find two other partners who are not poor flight instructors, or students in flight training. Find a couple of guys (or gals) that are professionals in their fields and want an airplane to bip around in on the weekends. They'll have enough money around to get repairs accomplished quickly.

Pick an late model aircraft with low time on the engine. That way you'll never have to deal with the costs of engine overhauls during the time you are using it.

Pick an aircraft that hasn't been used as a trainer. Be meticulous about the mx logbook inspection and do a thorough prebuy (preferably as an annual).

After you buy the airplane, FLY IT REGULARLY! Lots of problems creep up when airplanes sit around not flying. The more you fly it, in a consistent manner, the better.

I'm looking for an airplane now. I wish I could buy my old one back

 

[tathepilot]

.....

 

[tathepilot]

For a 172....

Adding up all the fixed costs, say,
$1200/yr hangar fees

where in the world can you get a hangar for 100. a month ?

 

[bobbysamd]

A&P aside

Ha, I heard the same thing about boats. You guys are probably right. I didn't realize an annual inspection was so expensive. Engine overhauls are obviously a big expense too. I guess it would help to become an A&P....

You, as an automotive tech, would have the aptitude, and being an A&P could pay dividends later in your flying career.

You'd have to go to school. You still have to serve an apprenticeship after you finish school. Don't get it only to work on your airplane.

 

[JimNtexas]

A good partnership or ownership club is the way to go for most people who want to fly presentable, safe airplanes for a resonable price.

FBO rentals are fine for training, but neither the planes themselves nor the terms of the rental agreement are suitable for personal use other than training.

 

[TrafficInSight]

Has anyone had any experience with a lease back to an FBO?

It's very rare that you make any money on leaseback, the most it will do is offset your costs, which can be a good thing if you own the airplane just to build time. However it can be a nightmare.

A guy I know from school bought a Seneca to build multi time and leased it back to a flight school. Shortly after, one of the flight school's students lost control during landing, ran off the runway and hit a taxiway sign. Severe damage at an out of town airport, it's been over a year now and the airplane is still sitting there. Insurance is fixing it but he's obviously still paying for the plane even when it's not flying. If you are going to do leaseback choose the school/FBO wisely, sometimes even then it doesn't help.

Another guy bought a C337 as a personal plane and then leased it back to a club on the field to offset the cost. One of the club members rented it, flew off and wasn't seen for weeks and when he did show up it was sans airplane. It had been weeks so nobody bothered to ask where he had been or where the airplane was until the club got a call from an FBO in FRANCE asking when they were going to pay the repair bill and come pick up the airplane. The guy had rented it, flew it to Europe where it had exhaust system troubles and left it there. The repair bill turned out to be over $9,000 and the guy then had to hire someone to ferry it back. The member in question was kicked out of the club but the damage was done.

These, obviously, are two worst case scenarios. I know just as many people who have had good luck with leasebacks but I just want to show that leaseback wont cure cancer.

 

[eggman76]

where in the world can you get a hangar for 100. a month ?

I pay $60/mo for a 10 year old, asphalt floor, powered door, insulated t-hanger in NW Iowa.

 

[atrdriver]

These, obviously, are two worst case scenarios. I know just as many people who have had good luck with leasebacks but I just want to show that leaseback wont cure cancer.

Is it possible to structure the agreement with the FBO or club so that if something does happen to the airplane that they cover the costs involved? I'm not trying to be stupid, I just don't have any idea...

 

[TrafficInSight]

Is it possible to structure the agreement with the FBO or club so that if something does happen to the airplane that they cover the costs involved? I'm not trying to be stupid, I just don't have any idea...

The problem is that if the FBO wanted to be responsible for the airplane they would just buy one. They pay you a certain amount for every flight hour plus, obviously, a fee for the lease and you are expected to use that money for aircraft upkeep like you would if it was just you flying it. There is insurance on the airplane in case of an incident or accident but if someone does something stupid, as in the 337 situation, there's nothing that covers that. In that particular case the owner is going after the member in court and that's still pending, but the flight wasn't something that was specifically prohibited by the bylaws so who knows what will happen. You can bet it's in the bylaws now. Like I said, you can offset the costs with a leaseback but when the sh!t hits the fan you're still an airplane owner.

 

[urflyingme?!]

This isn't exactly on topic, but does not warrant a simple thread.
I did my PPL training at flight school A because I liked the atmosphere, even though the price was expensive. Now I am going to go back home soon, and want to fly out of school B(They have cheaper/faster planes without glass and hsi's, which aren't imperative for 1 hr scenic rides with friends). problem is I realy like owner of school A(small operation) and school B is right next door. Anybody dealt with this type of setup?

Feel free to PM me. Am I just a wuss?

OK, back to the thread at hand. This is some excelent discussion. I'm reading every post and learning a lot about my dream of buying a plane(or is it a nightmare!?)

 

[qmaster3]

I pay $60/mo for a 10 year old, asphalt floor, powered door, insulated t-hanger in NW Iowa.

I'm from MCW. I'd point the nose down, land, and park my craft in the barn.

 

[wxman13]

1) T-hangars in Walla Walla, WA (KALW) with power are $120/month. WWII-vintage but they're insulated and get the job done.

2) I'm intrigued by finding partners in a plane. How do you do it? Is it just a matter of knowing people around the airport or having colleagues whereever you work who also fly? Sounds like that's the best way to go as far as building trust and being able to see people face-to-face. Anybody have good/bad experiences with partnerships they'd like to share?

Peter

 

[English]

I found my partners by posting a "partners wanted" sign up in the local pilot shop. While posting, I noticed a sign someone else had posted. I called him, we met for lunch and hit it off. Another pilot called me when he saw my ad. The three of us met and hammered out the details before we even started looking for an airplane. We had the scheduling and financial aspects worked out pretty quickly, and took about a week to write out a partnership agreement that was later revised after we found the airplane.

 

[Immelman]

This isn't exactly on topic, but does not warrant a simple thread.
Feel free to PM me. Am I just a wuss?

urflying,

Why not tell the same story to the owner/manager of the school you favor? Work out a deal.. if you have extra time once in a while offer to pull panels on 100-hr-inspections, or negotiate a block discount. Worst that can happen is he says 'no', and you can continue to fly there once in a while when you need the nicer airplane for IFR or whatever.

Thaz what I'd do anyways... all depends on what your situation is I suppose.

I am glad to hear about people's partnership experiences here too. I am in a situation where I think I'd like to do that sometime in the next year, once some other financial hurdles are crossed... with ~3 people a nice C172 just might happen.

 

[Lead Sled]

Has anyone had any experience with a lease back to an FBO?

I've seen many lease back arrangements over the past 39 years and, in the long-run, most of them only really benefitted the flight school or FBO.

Most guys really want to own their own airplane and will try to rationalize almost anything. Don't rely on the promise that "Hey, you buy a new airplane and we'll make the payments for you" - it doesn't always work out that way. Your best interest and the FBO's are typically two different things. Everything typically works well for the first year or so, but then the airplane starts to show some wear and tear. (Which will annoy the heck out of you, the owner; but it won't seem to bother them nearly as much - trust me.) At some point, they'll start pitching the same program to someone else - they like being able to rent out brand new airplanes. You'll be stuck with two choices, either refurbish the airplane or lower the rental price to keep the utilization up. After all, way pay top $$$ for a ratty airplane when you can rent their new one for the same amount?

If you ever start to consider a lease back arrangement, take your time and talk to people who have have similiar dealings with the company that you are thinking about entering into a contract with. People who have been "full circle", not just in the first year or two (the honeymoon phase) of their agreement. Did it work for them? What were the issues that they had to deal with? Bottom line is that you have to approach it as analytically as would would any highly speculative business deal - keeping the emotional aspects of aviation out of it as much as possible. (Remember, we all want to own an airplane.)

'Sled

 

[54tw]

A related article from AOPA.


http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2002/budget0207.html

 

[Flyin Tony]

You'll be cured of that when you drop 5,000$ on the first annual

Everyone says that the annuals are going to get you. Thats far from true. If you get a plane that has been taken care of its not going to cost you much. The first annual on our plane cost 250$ (1964 Comanche 250) and it didnt fly for 3 years before we got it. If you get a plane that has been beat up and not taken care of then your going to be out some big bucks.

GET A PREBUY

BTW we didnt

 

[54tw]

Mine ran $400 to $900 on the Cub with minor squawks.

Yes, I had one around $3,400 when landing gear and other components needed replacement. We/I missed that damage during the annual/prebuy inspection. Can't blame anyone else for that as I went all over it and also missed it. The nature of damage required gear disassembly to discover. Cracked hydrosorb & slightly bent tubing.