Why is Airways sucking up?

[TWA Dude]

~~~^~~~ :

I don't disagree, but I look at it a bit more diplomatically. The RJ revolution came so fast that it's taking more time than anyone wishes for those in power to figure it out. But figure it out they must! (sorry for the Yoda-ism)

 

[~~~^~~~]

TWA Dude: The point was that those in power wish to remain in power and they figure the best way to do it is to by reducing the number of small jet pilots. Helps maintain your majority in a democracy if you can simply kill off the opposition, you know.

 

[FlyingSig]

Besides the fact I feel that is hypocritical, my question is this: does RJDC believe ACA ALPA should be party to those scope negotiations? After all everybody's ALPA and they believe it's ALPA's responsibility to ensure that member carriers are party to negotiations that affect their pay and working conditions.

That's a very leget question.... Prof , the peaunut gallery is wondering why you didn't address this in your response?

 

[Draginass]

With the death bells of the majors already ringing while the stretch RJs are going through ETOPS certification, I guess the regional guys can plan on being there a really really long time, or at least until management can find somebody else willing to work for even less.

 

[~~~^~~~]

does RJDC believe ACA ALPA should be party to those scope negotiations? After all everybody's ALPA and they believe it's ALPA's responsibility to ensure that member carriers are party to negotiations that affect their pay and working conditions.

You guys should not get my opinion confused with anything coming from the RJDC. The two are certainly not one in the same. I just read the same public information that the others on this board have access to.

I don't know what the RJDC's position on this is and I bet they do not have one since a group of Comair pilots really do not have any authority to represent a group of ACA pilots regarding what, if any, representational concerns they have with ALPA National.

My personal opinion is that ALPA's primary failing is that they allowed domestic codeshare agreements in the first place. ALPA should be pushing for integration for each "brand" of flying to reduce the alter ego problem and unite pilots. That is idealistic, but ALPA can go that direction by addressing the issue of the wholly owneds which is not that great of a legal problem, just a political problem.

After all, if ALPA can negotiate jobs for US Air pilots at the top of the seniority list at other airlines, like Skywest, I guess anything is possible in this very strange place we find ourselves in.

Anyway, no ACA pilot has ever given me authority to "represent" them - it would be presumptious of me to try.

 

[RichardFitzwell]

...or at least until management can find somebody else willing to work for even less.

Draginass,

It's a 'Regional B Scale' and its a very real posibility. I hope Boeingman agrees with me when I say 'The One List' concept is rapidly gaining support at CAL.

As for ALPA forgiving the CAL pilots that crossed in the early 80's, they sort of did...but the pilots didn't.

R.F.

 

[Marko Ramius]

My personal opinion is that ALPA's primary failing is that they allowed domestic codeshare agreements in the first place. ALPA should be pushing for integration for each "brand" of flying to reduce the alter ego problem and unite pilots. That is idealistic, but ALPA can go that direction by addressing the issue of the wholly owneds which is not that great of a legal problem, just a political problem.

Fins,

I know you aren't the RJDC, on this board however you seem to be their defacto agent because you have the most useful info on the subject. Angry posts from either side, don't solve anything. The reason I asked the question about ACA and Skywest is because I have seen numerous posts in many places saying that once onelist is achieved, the combined entity would seek to scope out contract affiliate carriers. ASA/CMR want to do it to SKW and ACA, Eagle wants to do it to CHQ/TSA/Corpex, UsAirways wants to do it to their contract carriers as well. It's job security, so I actually don't have a huge problem with them wanting to do it. What gets me is that I feel that RJDC presents itself as an independant entity on the surface, when it really is just a vehicle for a group of Comair and ASA pilot's wishes. That again is fine, as they are protecting their own interests, but I have a problem with all of the "harmful scope," talk from a group that has designs using scope language themselves in the future. I also feel that they post all of the stuff that is going on at AMR, CoEx, and Eagle just to cull up support(i.e. $$$) for their fight at CMR/ASA. Is RJDC going to fight for these groups as well? If not they should make that fact clear to them before they donate, as well as the fact that they are planning to scope out no WO carriers after they get their wishes. I know this is an unwieldly situation bearing many different angles and misinformation, but sometimes I think RJDC is pushing a"two wrongs make a right," agenda by presenting plenty of jaded info and interpretations.

 

[psyops]

As for ALPA forgiving the CAL pilots that crossed in the early 80's, they sort of did...but the pilots didn't.

R.F.

At ALPA, you're a scab unless you have money. Then they welcome you back.

I think the UAL pilots have the right idea. Once a scab, always a scab. Never speak to them again.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Marco, you deffinitely have a good point, but I personally think it is apples and oranges. ASA/Comair are wholey owns in which Delta dictates policy to. ACA, Sky West, etc. are owned by some other entity and are sub contractors for Delta, which has no say whatsoever in their day to day activities other that mission completion, aircraft colors, etc. RJDC is suing ALPA for manipulative tacticts concerning negotiations within the Delta family and in accordance with ALPA policy. Lets say that Delta, ASA, and Comair were put under one list and furloughs were brought back and ASA/Comair now had to furlough. Should the furloughs include ACA and Sky West? No. If the lists were integrated, how would just some of the contracted pilots from each group who fly the Delta routes be split up to be added on to that list? They cant be (unless you are US mainline, then you can do what you want). Your argument though is very real and should be addressed. Unfortunately, when you work for a company that represents two or more mainlines through different contracts, it becomes very difficult in these situations as your company can switch between them at will depending upon the contract. The part regarding whether or not ACA or Skywest should be scoped out by ASA/Comair pilots? No, as long it is not at the expence of any Delta mainline, ASA or Comair pilot. Is that a fair statement looking at it from the ACA Sky West end, probably not. I guess another way of looking at it is that your company is contracted for a fee per trip. Other than that it has no other ties to remain commited to Delta or anyone else for that matter and can branch off anywhere it chooses to. Your contract may or may not be renewed, ours is deffinite unless we are sold or liquidated. If ASA and Comair try to scope you off the routes (which they cant do, do the the length of the existing conctracts) it would be more of a territorial grab for Delta pilots as a whole "all Delta flying by Delta pilots". I know that is as clear as mud, but it is just my take of it. Not ment to offend anyone concerning this subject, which is a sticky one.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Marco:

I think Tim47 said it pretty clearly. I would only add that all of us outside the group A carriers are in the same boat when it comes to problems with ALPA's representational structure and anti - small jet agenda. If one group, say COEX, is successful in leading the way to ending alter - ego then that helps me as an ASA pilot. The assistance is not direct (since CO would then be a more effective competitor than Delta) but once one group of pilots shows the way the resistance will be less for those who need to follow in their footsteps.

So whether it be the group I support, or a group of Skywest pilots, does not matter to me as much as the eventual positive outcome for our industry.

Good question - BTW.

~~~^~~~