Why is 121 time so important?

[getonit]

I know that Airtran requires 500 hours of PIC in a 121 operation. My opinion is that 121 easier than 135, it is simply another set of regulations to follow. As a 135 on demand captain I think I can guarantee that I work hard than any 121 captain. I have to do all of my flight planning, hotels, etc, on very short notice. I flew on Airtran recently and the flight crew didn't show up until 30 minutes before departure, is that normal?

I am not bitchin' much, I just would like to know why.

 

[135fr8r]

Not to mention, I bet you hand fly all of your approaches as well. I`ve always wondered why the "121" requirements. Anyone can learn regs, even a lawyer...haha. Hang in there, you have a hard job, and you will be rewarded for it. I did the same thing you did, and finally got my brek I`ve ben waiting for. Best of luck!!!

 

[Mad Dog 80]

I am a 100% Part 121 pilot and I have never flown Part 135. The only answer I can give you about the 500 hrs 121 is that's how AirTran prevent from having 1 billion resume from being mailed to them.

Why does JetBlue want 1000 hrs over 20K? If you flew an airplane that weights 19,999 what's the difference. That's how they keep a high load of pilots from applying.

That's my two cents.........


Mad Dog

P.S If AirTran is your goal apply to a 121 air carrier and start building 121 time and upgrade asap.

 

[Ty Webb]

This subject has been covered many times on these boards.

121 is not harder, nor is it easier. It is a lot different, though. Just as most 121 guys would take a while to become familiarized with your operations, it will take you some time to learn to work within the 121 system. How many times do you see ads for 135 pilots that state specifically that they are looking for pilots with 135 experience? Same thing.

That crew that "showed up 30 minutes prior" had a lot to do in those 30 minutes . . . . the same stuff that you do, for the most part, just in a "rush-rush" format. . and that 15- page dispatch release that a dispatcher "did for them" has to be gone over quickly, yet carefully, and knowing the "gotcha's" takes a while to learn.

What they are basically saying is that if you have been a 121 PIC before, you are familiar with 121 regs and operations, and have had the opportunity to make PIC decisions in the 121 environment, so it's just that much less to learn during a pretty quick upgrade.

 

[CF34-3B1]

Another reason some Cos like 121 time is the same reason some like military time: You're a known quantity. It's not you're perceived to be "better" than the non 121 guy or non military guy, just that they can look at your background and say "Yeah, he can do the job He can get through training and out on the line." Not that someone without that background CAN'T do the job, just that when there are thousands of applicants to wade through for a handfull of spots, it makes it easier on the hiring folks. Not fair, but it's reality.

 

[pilotyip]

121 cockpit

If you have flown 121 you have worked in a two man cockpit, you have practiced CRM, and have used briefing techniques. You understand crew member roles in support of each other and the role of the crew in flying the airplane. The 121 training requirements are much more detailed in their completion standards than 91 or 135. This is not to say that 135 or 91 can not be at the same level, but the range could go from almost no training to training approaching that of 121. So AirTran has narrowed down their qualification standards. Do they accept time in a two man military cockpit like a P-3 or C-17? We have requirement at USA Jet for one year of 121 cockpit prior to upgrading in either airplane.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Flown both 135 and 121, freight, commuter, major , and on demand. Neither is harder than the other in terms of the regs to operate under. 121 does have the problem of being much more heavily regulated. Paperwork MUST be 100% correct, I have seen guys pick up a violation 6 or 7 months after the flight because of a paperwork error that the FAA just got around to auditing. Under 135 if you complete the flight without attracting attention your pretty much home free.

121 Captain involves alot of cover your behind type of stuff. You are ensuring the safety of flight as well as making sure you don't get boned on a stupid technical error, that probably wasn't even your doing. I saw a fueling error (less than 300 lbs worth) cause a guy to have to dance the carpet with the CP and Feds 3 months after it happened. The bad part was he took off with 300 lbs less than min fuel required, but since the fueler screwed the paperwork he never knew it until the CP called. (300 lbs is undetectable when your dealing with 35,000 lbs of fuel and old analog fuel guages)

In the 135 world this would have never come up.

So to answer the question, is 121 harder ....No, it just requires stronger coffee in the morning to avoid legal gotchas.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Re: 121 cockpit

Do they accept time in a two man military cockpit like a P-3 or C-17?

I believe so. A buddy just got on with them and he had no civilian time. He was a heavy driver.

 

[smellthejeta]

Flown both 135 and 121, freight, commuter, major , and on demand. Neither is harder than the other in terms of the regs to operate under. 121 does have the problem of being much more heavily regulated. Paperwork MUST be 100% correct, I have seen guys pick up a violation 6 or 7 months after the flight because of a paperwork error that the FAA just got around to auditing. Under 135 if you complete the flight without attracting attention your pretty much home free.

121 Captain involves alot of cover your behind type of stuff. You are ensuring the safety of flight as well as making sure you don't get boned on a stupid technical error, that probably wasn't even your doing. I saw a fueling error (less than 300 lbs worth) cause a guy to have to dance the carpet with the CP and Feds 3 months after it happened. The bad part was he took off with 300 lbs less than min fuel required, but since the fueler screwed the paperwork he never knew it until the CP called. (300 lbs is undetectable when your dealing with 35,000 lbs of fuel and old analog fuel guages)

In the 135 world this would have never come up.

So to answer the question, is 121 harder ....No, it just requires stronger coffee in the morning to avoid legal gotchas.

I'll bite. Supposing you are splitting that 300 lbs across two, and possibly three tanks, the pilot misses that 100-150 lbs per guage, and the fueler tanks the paperwork, how did the pilot catch it?

 

[SuperFLUF]

Airlines are all about the Benjamins. If you have 121 time you are much more easily trained in their 121 ops, therefore saving the company money over someone who's gonna require extra IOE to get it right.

Its why 5000 hr "commuter" pilots get hired over 10,000 hr corporate and/or cargo pilots. Familiarity with the ops makes for cheaper training costs. Its not about who is the best pilot

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I was not involved in the flight, however it was from a very weight restricted runway going a long way. I do not know how they found out about it but apparantly when they hit the runway for takeoff they were 300 lbs below min fuel for the leg. Somehow the feds determined that.

I would think that somebody had made somebody else mad for this senario to play out the way it did. This particular route was always a tight one from a fuel standpoint, as soon as the gear hit the wells we began fuel calculations. It was not uncommon for a non stop flight to become a one stopper for fuel during the summer. Even a small thunderstorm deviation could screw you up.

Another one that came up a few times was a door light on takeoff. If the F/A's bumped the handle on takeoff the light would come on. In the 135 world you would abort and verify the door closed and continue on. In the 121 world the only thing that makes the feds happy is a taxi back to have the mechanic "Check the door" you know, open it and then close it!
Since the FAA gets a report on every abort this is nothing more than a cover your butt function.

That is the point I was making, things that seem silly in the 135 world will cause you a lot of grief and letter writing in the 121 world. Not that you don't have that problem in 135 if you have a POI standing around. But under 121 you always have somebody watching.