Why I am posting this I don't know

[bluepost]

91k has improved my life on the road significantly, I feel rested and relaxed and actually have time to enjoy the cities I am staying in. Part of this is because our new MEC did not cave into the company requests. See with a union, that is all they are is REQUESTS, we have a say on what they try to dump on us.

I used to be embarrased to work for NJA, and am still regarding the pay, but I still have hope, and have not pursued 3 separate job openings in my city paying 95k and higher that have come up in the last 2 weeks.

Our leadership is fighting all the battles once and for all...single carrier, gateway lou has been scheduled for arbitration after 3 years, our old local is now history, and I just received word that Teamsters National will be repaying all the money ASAP/SU has spent (over 50k) of their/our own money to get our own local and separate from 284.

To all those that complain about the Teamsters, or ALPA, or whatever union, look in the mirror...you are the union, the national organization is less than 10% of your strength. If your group doesn't have the leadership within, and the internal strength to support them, it wouldn't matter who represented you.

I want to put one rumor to rest. We are not actively pursuing FLOPS guys...we don't need their money...we have over 1.6 million dollars of income from our only members, NJA pilots. FLOPS pilots have come to US, we are not Teamsters local 747 who was the group pursuing them. We can only give Options pilots the tools, they have to build their own house, and need to find some skilled carpenters in their group to lead them.

Notice how I am not bragging about our new contract, or how much we will get or anything along those lines. We may not get squat, but if we don't NJA won't be getting squat for customers either by tiime this war is over. I am only saying that for the first time in 5 years I know whatever comes down the line will be the most possible, good or bad.

I am not an MEC member, or on any board or committee. I am just a line pilot that believes in the benefits of a union. I was relatively anti-union when I started here over 5 years ago, but after 5 years of not losing one single benefit, and only seeing improvements (albeit slowly) I am now a believer. Our airplanes are safe, our mx is done, our pilots have great judgement, our training is good, and there is not one leg that I would sweat a team of FAA inspectors jumping onboard. Every lightbulb is MEL'd, nothing is broke, all the paperwork is done, I am rested and ready to work....all because I have no fear in refusing a trip without proper paperwork, without a ferry permit, or because I am tired or hungry.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

"I am not an MEC member, or on any board or committee. I am just a line pilot that believes in the benefits of a union. I was relatively anti-union when I started here over 5 years ago, but after 5 years of not losing one single benefit, and only seeing improvements (albeit slowly) I am now a believer. Our airplanes are safe, our mx is done, our pilots have great judgement, our training is good, and there is not one leg that I would sweat a team of FAA inspectors jumping onboard. Every lightbulb is MEL'd, nothing is broke, all the paperwork is done, I am rested and ready to work....all because I have no fear in refusing a trip without proper paperwork, without a ferry permit, or because I am tired or hungry.

That's exactly what happens to pilots who follow the regs. IBT didn't do that...pilots did. PILOTS are doing all the work...you just have an illusion of security "protecting" you. Kind of like the little kid on his bike for the first time without training wheels. He still thinks Daddy is holding on, and has the confidence to accomplish his task. Anything accomplished by NJA has been accomplish by PILOTS who are PAYING DUES to IBT, for the privelege of doing the work themselves. Flops needs representation, too...but not the kind found with the IBT. We'd like to add "feel treated like a professional by our company, (not seen as annoying blue collar labor) because we are represented as professionals by professionals. " THAT would be the addendum I look for.

 

[1-tacan-rule]

Wow!

"...91k has improved my life on the road significantly, I feel rested and relaxed and actually have time to enjoy the cities I am staying in....I used to be embarrased to work for NJA, and am still regarding the pay, but I still have hope, and have not pursued 3 separate job openings in my city paying 95k and higher that have come up in the last 2 weeks....but after 5 years of not losing one single benefit, and only seeing improvements... Our airplanes are safe, our mx is done, our pilots have great judgement, our training is good, and there is not one leg that I would sweat a team of FAA inspectors jumping onboard. Every lightbulb is MEL'd, nothing is broke, all the paperwork is done, I am rested and ready to work....all because I have no fear in refusing a trip without proper paperwork, without a ferry permit, or because I am tired or hungry...."

___________________

Sounds like one more member of what I call the "Very Happy With Everything About Netjets Except the Pay" Club. Pretty great testimony to counter all those others who bash everything about NJ.

 

[bluepost]

Voice....I understand your feelings towards IBT, go independant, but do SOMETHING. I am not trying to sell IBT to anyone. That being said they (National) have done everything we have asked of them....and when it comes time to get released and the mediator says NO, I look forward to thier lobbying power in Washington to try and help us out.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I seriously wish the best for NJA, I honestly do...I don't like to see pilots anywhere getting hosed. I just feel like we can learn from their rough road that IBT isn't the way to go. The NJA pilots who have "taken over" are working hard, and I hope they get what they want. I am leery of any "lobbying power" IBT would have in Washington right now...
As I said the patting on the backs here is ONLY to the NJA pilots who have had enough cr@p and have been forced to go by the "If you want something done right do it yourself" motto.

 

[slowto250]

Make no mistake, there is no illusion involved, when it comes to the job protection a good union offers. No management can deal with an individual pilot on a punitive basis with a strong union in place.

This protection afforded to members of Alpa, Teamsters, and others, is precisely why these organizations were formed. Do a little reading about their inception. To believe that we could demand decent working conditions without their protection is foolhardy.

If you feel otherwise, remember that this is why closed shops are the norm. Even those who do not wish to be a part of the organization, are afforded the benefits of their collective bargaining powers.

C'mon, you holdouts. Pay attention here. It's your career and future we're talking about.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I am talking about IBT/Teamsters here and no other union. How many pilots at NetJets that were unjustly terminated, did IBT get their jobs back? How many?

As for the massive highly anticipated pay increase, I will be happy to "eat crow" when I see it after all of these years....(but I still won't believe the IBT had anything to do with it, just the NJA pilots)

 

[Majik]

I'm no Teamster fan but IBT did not have any blame for the last 4 years of torture we've endured at NetJets. Our pain was directly attributable to Harold Powell, the recently retired (probably in lieu of termination) president of our soon to be former local and the 5 sellout pilots that we unfortunately elected as our MEC for the past 2 terms. Shame on us for not recognizing the problem earlier.

IBT (or any other national union HQ) will not come in to help if you don't ask for it. Our past leadership NEVER asked for ANY substantial assistance. They knew best and did not want to have a confrontational relationship with Santulli. They did not want ANY outside assistance. Why? Maybe they were fooled by our local leadership that didn't want to spend any of our dues he had collected. Maybe they were just outclassed. Maybe they were paid off. Who knows. What they failed to realize is that Santulli does not respond to favorable treatment with favorable treatment. He is an aggressive animal. He will only respond to pressure and threats. Otherwise, he would have made some modest effort to negotiate in good faith for over 3 1/2 years. Our previous MEC played nice and the membership got nothing. The new leadership is different. Now it's time to take off the gloves and use every bit of leverage we can muster. Zero progress will be made until the membership and the elected MEC take action and request specific support from International.

Do you think ALPA HQ (or any other established organization) is going to swoop down and do everything for you? You are going to have to do it for yourself and only then, when you request specific assistance, will they hopefully provide it.

Once we got our former local and our 5 lame-azz MEC members out of the way we have seen a remarkable change for the better. The international has met just about every request for support we've asked. That may be because we threatened to leave Teamsters if they didn't, but things have sure improved in the last 3 months.

You and your fellow pilots will only be successful when enough of your group volunteers to organize yourselves and receives support from a majority of your membership. Whomever you choose to affiliate with will be the least of your worries. They will only be able to provide guidance and expertise when requested. Most of the work will have to be done within your own group.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

You and your fellow pilots will only be successful when enough of your group volunteers to organize yourselves and receives support from a majority of your membership. Whomever you choose to affiliate with will be the least of your worries. They will only be able to provide guidance and expertise when requested. Most of the work will have to be done within your own group.

I agree...That will never happen, however with the IBT...What I see on this board and what is actually heard from people don't agree, and that has been proven with votes time and again. It would have to be downright hopeless before a majority would vote IBT, and it's nowhere near that point. NO union is better than that, and most people will leave before making THAT kind of vote. Again, I am NOT ANTI-UNION, (before the witch-hunters swoop in....)

 

[FracDaddy]

Reason

I agree...That will never happen, however with the IBT...What I see on this board and what is actually heard from people don't agree, and that has been proven with votes time and again. It would have to be downright hopeless before a majority would vote IBT, and it's nowhere near that point. NO union is better than that, and most people will leave before making THAT kind of vote. Again, I am NOT ANTI-UNION, (before the witch-hunters swoop in....)

For a very long time I was far more anti IBT then most. Over the past few years management at options have proven to me time and again that they view the pilots at Flight Options as a necessary nuisance. They make changes to pay and benefits without regard to the effect that these actions have on the pilots. Management has used the pilots as a source for cutting back their overhead to make up for their own mismanagement.

Like I said I have never been and still am not a fan of the IBT, BUT!!!!! I have come to the point that I absolutely know that we need a union at Options to prevent management from abusing the pilots and the IBT seems to be the only option that presents it self. When I was actively arguing the anti IBT point of view people would say if not IBT then fine another union to organize under. Believe me I tried, even contacted a group that helps organize independent groups. I could find no takers.

So I now throw that same challenge out to you, If not the IBT you go find another union that is interested and or willing to step up to the plate.

Good luck, your going to need it.

 

[El Chupacabra]

That's exactly what happens to pilots who follow the regs. IBT didn't do that...pilots did. PILOTS are doing all the work...you just have an illusion of security "protecting" you. Kind of like the little kid on his bike for the first time without training wheels..

Do you follow the regs? The 135 rest rules?

 

[netjetwife]

From what I'm seeing....and I think that I have a very good seat....the NJ pilots, now that they have their own local are an example of a union at its most basic:

n] an organized attempt by workers to improve their status by united action especially via labor unions (especially the leaders of this movement)

Their determination to succeed and their regard for one another, which is evidenced by donations that advanced their cause and made their own local possible along with the countless hours volunteers work on projects that will benefit the entire group, is proof of what a union CAN be. Focusing too much on the IBT connection just clouds the issue. The REAL heart of any union is the LOCAL. Concerned pilots standing together and helping one another--THAT is what is important and deserving of notice.

 

[Galaxy]

Here's what I can't figure out in the original post...That you did not seek other employment with known salaries of 95K? I for one hope and pray for a great contract for all you NJA folks. I also hope for the sppedy orginazation of the FLOPS folks. I just have a hard time seeing someone sit around hoping and waiting for the next contract..after all the last one took how long?

Don't flame me for this post..I agree with all you said about the union, regs and safety...Just cant imagine a very qualified pilot not trying to improve his/her current situation.

 

[netjetwife]

But that is EXACTLY what the NJ pilots are working hard to do---improve their situation. You cannot (fairly, anyway) compare this StrongUnion MEC and negotiating team to the last Failed 5! EVERYTHING about them is different, and having their own local will make a huge difference as well. We are hearing June as an ETA for a new contract/TA. The company is finally motivated to get it settled, too. And even if they weren't, the mediator IS....

I can assure you that the countless hours my husband spends on the projects that he has been assigned by the MEC, is MUCH more productive than "sitting around hoping and waiting for the next contract". He tells me that our leadership and negotiating team "inspire confidence". I can tell you that they have inspired my family to sacrifice a lot of our time together and part with some of those hard-earned NJ dollars. We all know that both of those are in short supply for frac pilots, so that should tell you something of our belief in the cause. Other families are doing the same.
Netjetwife

 

[Majik]

We are hearing June as an ETA for a new contract/TA.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought June was the last month with scheduled, mediated negotiations. Unless Santulli has a huge change of heart I would not expect to be reading a new TA in the June timeframe. If I am, then I would expect it to be a slight improvement over the last crappy TA. I expect Santulli to make several offers, each slightly better than the last to see if he can continue to lower expectations and get closer to his 50% + 1 goal.

I expect to know more in June than I know now, but I don't think it's realistic to think we are going to be close to a good contract by June. I also think it's a mistake to raise potential a new-hire's optimism that he/she should come here expecting things to be better in a few more months. This is going to take much longer than most people think.

 

[netjetwife]

Majik, I agree. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression, thanks for keeping me on my toes... Notice that I didn't say it would be all finished in June. Or that the TA would be one that would pass. Certainly I expect there to be offers and counteroffers; I guess I see that as a given. But at least it is a sign of progress and will be concrete steps towards getting a fair/good contract. The beginning to the end, if you will. That said, it would seem wiser for anyone thinking of coming to NJA to wait until they know EXACTLY what they will be signing on for. How do you make an informed decision without information??

To pilots in other fractional companies---isn't now a good time to be joining ASAP and turning in your cards, getting organized so that when the NJ pilots get a good contract y'all are ready to follow their lead? It seems to me, reading what is happening at Options, that it is time to take a stand there, as well.

 

[Spooky 1]

I will keep this brief as possible. My current ultimate supervisor is a former NetJets VP. I don't think he has any axe to grind as he is out of there and free of any incriminations as far as I know.

He says a newbe can make $35,000+ the first year the way things are set up. The posts I see on this forum say otherwise. So, is it possible for a guy/gal to collect say 35/45,000 the first year some how?

I wish you folks all the best in your efforts to put together a good if not great contract.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

To pilots in other fractional companies---isn't now a good time to be joining ASAP and turning in your cards, getting organized so that when the NJ pilots get a good contract y'all are ready to follow their lead? It seems to me, reading what is happening at Options, that it is time to take a stand there, as well.

No, it's time to seek a job where pilots can be treated as and represented by professionals, not wait 5 to 10 years like NetJets hoping that IBT (or the exact same union calling itself ASAP...just new 'cold case' pilots as reps) will eventually "save the day".

Now is also a good time for NetJetsWife to go take care of the kids...

 

[netjetwife]

Perhaps he was just repeating what he had been told, which IS what they were telling pilots during interviews (I don't know if they still are). Was the POTENTIAL there? Possibly, I guess, if you didn't care how many days you would have to be gone AND IF you actually received all the days that you volunteered to extend for. My husband didn't always get the measly 2 a month that he asked for, nor did he make more than 28K. The reality is that the NJ FO wages qualified our son for the reduced/"poor kid" lunch price at his public school.

Spooky 1, thanks for the words of support! The NJ pilots and their families are working for a FAIR contract. The pilots there ARE PROFESSIONALS and demand to be paid as such. ASAP was organized by fractional (NJ) pilots for the benefit of fractional pilots....certainly NOT the same as IBT. Having their own local--1108--will allow them to acquire the help of EXPERTS in the contract battle.

Voice, my kids are fine, thanks for asking. They're both here beside me and both understand that their father is grossly underpaid. As children often do, they see things clearly and have a knack for going to the heart of a problem--they are mad at the "greedy guys". Your phrase "save the day" is totally without basis applied to the NJ pilots who are working tirelessly, pooling their strength and money in a united effort to better their situation, and hopefully, that of other frac pilots, as well! Basic fairness demands giving credit where credit is due.

 

[El Chupacabra]

He says a newbe can make $35,000+ the first year the way things are set up. The posts I see on this forum say otherwise. So, is it possible for a guy/gal to collect say 35/45,000 the first year some how?

You can if you are able to get bypass pay or upgrade to Capt. In the past that was happening in the first couple of months. There was recently a stretch of about 25 or so months that nobody upgraded or got bypass pay. It was only stopped by an artificial effort to get people NOT to bid to upgrade and let the junior man get PIC and therefore everyone senior to him on Capts pay. $37K. Yes $37 K Capt on the mighty Citation X.

 

[netjetwife]

My family is one of the 116 to benefit from that wonderful show of unity. My thanks to ALL the NJ pilots! To the other FO/FO families, please know that your plight is NOT being ignored. SU knows your worth and is fighting hard for you.

 

[psysicx]

Do you get to enjoy your overnights or are you so tired you go straight to bed?Or does it depend on the aircraft?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Voice, my kids are fine, thanks for asking. They're both here beside me and both understand that their father is grossly underpaid.

First of all...How sad that you would think it normal to involve children in the loop that their father is "grossly underpaid," as if kids these days don't have enough stress piled on them.

Do you know why I don't feel sorry for these kids, really, though?

Because "NetJetWife" is one of many IBT handles (not a female NOR a wife) to represent each group they want to appeal to, in their desperation to gain support they don't have.

Ask any real housewife/mother today if they have time to spend all day everyday on a message board AND sending out propaganda by various other avenues. Please, we weren't born yesterday.

 

[Grizz]

As in mosts things, Voice - you're mistaken again. NJW is exactly who she says she is, a wife of a NetJets pilot. You, on the other hand, are nothing but a troll that spouts venom everytime you get on the board. You add nothing substantive to the discussions here. Another candidate for the ignore button.

 

[Hung Start]

NJW:

I interviewed this week, and both Derrinda and Jerry were very open about the situation. And, they pretty much said its 27K. Sure, they did mention per diem, but they did stress the salary is what it is. Also, about 2 1/2 years DEPENDING on aircraft for upgrades. Upper level planes may be a long time.
I have been reading these boards for a while, and I must say they did not try to hide anything. The pay and bennies are what they are, you decide.

Not a cool aid drinker, but I think they were pretty honest, to give them their due.

 

[Grizz]

NJW:

I interviewed this week, and both Derrinda and Jerry were very open about the situation. And, they pretty much said its 27K. Sure, they did mention per diem, but they did stress the salary is what it is. Also, about 2 1/2 years DEPENDING on aircraft for upgrades. Upper level planes may be a long time.
I have been reading these boards for a while, and I must say they did not try to hide anything. The pay and bennies are what they are, you decide.

Not a cool aid drinker, but I think they were pretty honest, to give them their due.

2 1/2 years isn't even close. You better plan on 5 years or longer. I've been here 2 1/2 years and I was 400 numbers junior to the least senior successful bidder in the last 400XP bid. You'll be 400 numbers junior to me. How is 2 1/2 years ever going to happen? The answer is it isn't.

 

[netjetwife]

HS, I'm happy to hear it. I think they may well have learned their lesson from past interviews. One of the big reasons that the last bypass bid operation was so successful is because many of the pilots knew that the guys on the bottom of the list had been misled in their interviews. You have to think that bumping up the pay of 116 FOs, all at once, WOULD dictate a change in hiring procedures.


Psysicx, not only does it depend on the aircraft flown, but the day's mission as well. The worst I've seen is when my husband is too tired to call home at night. Having fallen asleep while talking to me on the phone, he now has learned it's better just not to call if he can't talk for at least a little while. At the best of times, he tells me that he and the Capt have had a nice (read that hot) dinner together in a restaurant. Most typically, though, he eats leftover catering food or hours old crew meals while we talk briefly and he tells me that he's tired. The XL stays busy, but I don't think his days are too different from many other NJ pilots.....or even some of the other frac pilots.

Griz, I think you may well be right about Voice. Why is it that some don't like to hear the family perspective? Those that know me, understand that my family feels very strongly about the NJ fight for FAIRNESS.

If you could see and hear... the noisy background that I type in, Voice, you'd KNOW that I'm a mother with perfectly normal kids. Pilots aren't the only ones who can multi-task. An IBT handle??? What a notion! Sorry to disappoint your thirst for drama. I'm just an informed wife with a strong sense of right and wrong who firmly believes that people should stand up for themselves and speak out when they are treated unjustly. I don't know why you insist on dragging IBT into this. The pilots at NJ are the ones in the ring and it is them that I'm cheering for. THEY are the ones who have gotten their own local, donated their money to SU, and are spending countless hours working on projects for the good of all. Many of their names are mentioned in our home; the IBT RARELY ever is.